Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:Also wanted to say that some of Contador's fans here give the impression (and in fact have even said it) that the ONLY race that they were both in top shape was the 2014 Vuelta. I think that's total nonsense. I don't think Froome was in top shape there.
buchanan said:'Please explain to me how the bolded last paragraph is any different from the rest of your post. Weren't both of them coming off of injuries? Didn't Froome seem to ride a race that appeared to be one where he was attempting to actually be competitive as opposed to simply "getting a grand tour in his legs"? I agree that there are a lot more Contador fans in a state of denial but that doesn't change the fact that many here pretend like yourself that the 2014 Vuelta shouldn't count. I really don't see the difference.'
@Angiluru
Well yes, the 2014 Vuelta does count. But so does the whole of the 2013 season and so does the 2015 Tour de France. My point is that some of AC's fans cherry pick races he has done well in and discount the ones where he hasn't performed and provide flimsy excuses for it. Would they offer Froome the same? I don't think they do. I was trying to show that we can also make excuses as to why Froome wasn't 100% at some races and didn't win. Using 2014 Vuelta as an example. Personally I don't think he was in top shape there. I agree he became more competitive and attacking as the race went on. But anyway I agree, the result still counts.
you will never make other people to treat bertie as a sacred cow as you or blurryVII do. I really don't know why you constantly try.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:Also wanted to say that some of Contador's fans here give the impression (and in fact have even said it) that the ONLY race that they were both in top shape was the 2014 Vuelta. I think that's total nonsense. I don't think Froome was in top shape there.![]()
Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:Also wanted to say that some of Contador's fans here give the impression (and in fact have even said it) that the ONLY race that they were both in top shape was the 2014 Vuelta. I think that's total nonsense. I don't think Froome was in top shape there.![]()
Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:Also wanted to say that some of Contador's fans here give the impression (and in fact have even said it) that the ONLY race that they were both in top shape was the 2014 Vuelta. I think that's total nonsense. I don't think Froome was in top shape there.![]()
Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:Also wanted to say that some of Contador's fans here give the impression (and in fact have even said it) that the ONLY race that they were both in top shape was the 2014 Vuelta. I think that's total nonsense. I don't think Froome was in top shape there.![]()
Publicus said:Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:Also wanted to say that some of Contador's fans here give the impression (and in fact have even said it) that the ONLY race that they were both in top shape was the 2014 Vuelta. I think that's total nonsense. I don't think Froome was in top shape there.![]()
I think we do know that with respect to the 2015 TdF, Contador wasn't at top shape because of the hard Giro he had just won a little over a month before. I doubt it is intentional, but lots of folks seem to have lost that fact down the memory hole when doing head to head comparisons. As for this year, unless there is a quick turnaround, I think Froome fans will be arguing that he wasn't on form this year. His spring has been decidedly lackluster by his standards. Or his competitors have been able to reach a higher base level. Not sure which yet...
The Hitch said:But Contador's weak performance in the Giro (compared to previous performances) should leave people doubting that he could have gone one on one with Froome in July.
I kinda agree. Contador definitely can do better than in 2013/15, thats very obvious. But my comment wasnt about that, it was about blackmamba who said that the vuelta 2014 is the best comparison between Froome and Contador. And while Contador was definitely not at his best in 2013/15 Froome also definitely wasnt at his best in the vuelta 2014. Maybe it was the indeed the closest between the two condition wise, but still this result just tells us zero about how they would compete against each other if they are both at 100% because if it would, we could simply say Contador is better, case closed. (And I think all of you know its not that easy)Jspear said:Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:Also wanted to say that some of Contador's fans here give the impression (and in fact have even said it) that the ONLY race that they were both in top shape was the 2014 Vuelta. I think that's total nonsense. I don't think Froome was in top shape there.![]()
You're right we can't know for sure, but we can make some slightly educated guesses. I think most will agree that AC was in pretty good form in 2014. Look at how he competed against Froome in the Daupine. That at least tells us that he can do better than he did in the 2013/2015 Tours.
Now, we can argue all day about who would win when they're in top form - we don't need to necessarily hash through those points again, but...I think it's obvious that AC can do better than he did last year.
The giro is definitely a good explanation, but I don't say that Froome is definitely better, I say that its impossible to say who is better, and like the giro affected Contador, Froome's crash in 2014 might have affected him equally. Actually the only possible head to head comparison we could make would be from the 2013 tdf because Contador doesnt really have an explanation why he was so far behind Froome. Using it as a comparison is only useless because its so obvious, Contador wasnt at his best there.Publicus said:I think we do know that with respect to the 2015 TdF, Contador wasn't at top shape because of the hard Giro he had just won a little over a month before. I doubt it is intentional, but lots of folks seem to have lost that fact down the memory hole when doing head to head comparisons. As for this year, unless there is a quick turnaround, I think Froome fans will be arguing that he wasn't on form this year. His spring has been decidedly lackluster by his standards. Or his competitors have been able to reach a higher base level. Not sure which yet...
Gigs_98 said:I say that its impossible to say who is better, and like the giro affected Contador, Froome's crash in 2014 might have affected him equally.
The Hitch said:Publicus said:Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:Also wanted to say that some of Contador's fans here give the impression (and in fact have even said it) that the ONLY race that they were both in top shape was the 2014 Vuelta. I think that's total nonsense. I don't think Froome was in top shape there.![]()
I think we do know that with respect to the 2015 TdF, Contador wasn't at top shape because of the hard Giro he had just won a little over a month before. I doubt it is intentional, but lots of folks seem to have lost that fact down the memory hole when doing head to head comparisons. As for this year, unless there is a quick turnaround, I think Froome fans will be arguing that he wasn't on form this year. His spring has been decidedly lackluster by his standards. Or his competitors have been able to reach a higher base level. Not sure which yet...
And who's fault was that. Contador decided to go for the Giro no one forced him.
The concequence was giving up the race that matters to Froome for free.
But Contador's weak performance in the Giro (compared to previous performances) should leave people doubting that he could have gone one on one with Froome in July.
BlurryVII said:I just looked it up, Froome broke his wrist. His **** wrist ... Contador had his leg and knee completely messed up and a hairline fracture, I think there's no need to post the horrific pictures. It's just crazy to keep denying they weren't at least on equal ground, if I wanted to be rough, I'd say Contador was at a disadvantage yet again .
BlurryVII said:Gigs_98 said:I say that its impossible to say who is better, and like the giro affected Contador, Froome's crash in 2014 might have affected him equally.
How can you compare both situations?
In 2015, Contador was at a real disadvantage, Froome was not in 2014, he was on equal ground.
Good lord, Contador crashed too in 2014, later than Froome, so less recovery time before the Vuelta and had a worse injury. Seriously now![]()
Taxus4a said:BlurryVII said:Gigs_98 said:I say that its impossible to say who is better, and like the giro affected Contador, Froome's crash in 2014 might have affected him equally.
How can you compare both situations?
In 2015, Contador was at a real disadvantage, Froome was not in 2014, he was on equal ground.
Good lord, Contador crashed too in 2014, later than Froome, so less recovery time before the Vuelta and had a worse injury. Seriously now![]()
Hi recovery was one week, I could accept 2, and he had 8 days ridden in le Tour, even some mountains,... Froome was to la Vuelta just with 3 days competition since Dauphine, that is not a good preparation.
I am not going to commet about the injuries, but I am not sure wich was worse. In terms to cycling knee is moreimportant, but in terms of seriousness, Froome injury was worse..and of course wrists are very important for cycling as well, mayve Froome could start to pedal before Contador,he never lost that capacity, but to start going in a road in a normal way of course Contador did before.
Your comment anyway was bias.
Gigs_98 said:I kinda agree. Contador definitely can do better than in 2013/15, thats very obvious. But my comment wasnt about that, it was about blackmamba who said that the vuelta 2014 is the best comparison between Froome and Contador. And while Contador was definitely not at his best in 2013/15 Froome also definitely wasnt at his best in the vuelta 2014. Maybe it was the indeed the closest between the two condition wise, but still this result just tells us zero about how they would compete against each other if they are both at 100% because if it would, we could simply say Contador is better, case closed. (And I think all of you know its not that easy)Jspear said:Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:Also wanted to say that some of Contador's fans here give the impression (and in fact have even said it) that the ONLY race that they were both in top shape was the 2014 Vuelta. I think that's total nonsense. I don't think Froome was in top shape there.![]()
You're right we can't know for sure, but we can make some slightly educated guesses. I think most will agree that AC was in pretty good form in 2014. Look at how he competed against Froome in the Daupine. That at least tells us that he can do better than he did in the 2013/2015 Tours.
Now, we can argue all day about who would win when they're in top form - we don't need to necessarily hash through those points again, but...I think it's obvious that AC can do better than he did last year.
The giro is definitely a good explanation, but I don't say that Froome is definitely better, I say that its impossible to say who is better, and like the giro affected Contador, Froome's crash in 2014 might have affected him equally. Actually the only possible head to head comparison we could make would be from the 2013 tdf because Contador doesnt really have an explanation why he was so far behind Froome. Using it as a comparison is only useless because its so obvious, Contador wasnt at his best there.Publicus said:I think we do know that with respect to the 2015 TdF, Contador wasn't at top shape because of the hard Giro he had just won a little over a month before. I doubt it is intentional, but lots of folks seem to have lost that fact down the memory hole when doing head to head comparisons. As for this year, unless there is a quick turnaround, I think Froome fans will be arguing that he wasn't on form this year. His spring has been decidedly lackluster by his standards. Or his competitors have been able to reach a higher base level. Not sure which yet...
Have you seen the climbing times for Froome for that race?Ataraxus said:The same analogy can be applied about Froome's 2014 Vuelta as well. It is obvious that Froome wasnt at his best in the Vuelta with all his yoyo-ing and dropping behind Aru Jrod and Piti in several cases, several times.
By the same analogy Froome might not have an explanation why he was below par and couldn't achieve his peak in the whole Vuelta.
No.P.S. I guess we are focused in their closest comparison in GT only. Because if we leave GTs aside there is always the first two stages of the 2014 Dauphine which remain the best medium of comparison of their performances in(or close to) top shape.
LaFlorecita said:Have you seen the climbing times for Froome for that race?Ataraxus said:The same analogy can be applied about Froome's 2014 Vuelta as well. It is obvious that Froome wasnt at his best in the Vuelta with all his yoyo-ing and dropping behind Aru Jrod and Piti in several cases, several times.
By the same analogy Froome might not have an explanation why he was below par and couldn't achieve his peak in the whole Vuelta.
Agree with Ataraxus.
It was obvious to me at the time, especially in the first 2 weeks of the Vuelta, that Froome was not in peak shape. He had a poor time trial by his usual standards and was yo yoing on the first mountain stages. Looked like he was just trying to find some form, which he sort of did in the last few days. But he never hit 100%. I suspect that after his fractured hand and broken wrist he just took it pretty easy for a couple of weeks after he abandoned the Tour. And as Taxus pointed out, Contador had the benefit of a few hard extra days in the Tour before he abandoned.
No.P.S. I guess we are focused in their closest comparison in GT only. Because if we leave GTs aside there is always the first two stages of the 2014 Dauphine which remain the best medium of comparison of their performances in(or close to) top shape.
Miburo said:And Contador is prob gonna ride at least 2 more years. Well who said that before heh?
He also destroyed you guys plans of giro-vuelta in 2017, he wants to do the tour.
Those times of lagos are stupid, there were standing still most of the times in 2014