Also wanted to say that some of Contador's fans here give the impression (and in fact have even said it) that the ONLY race that they were both in top shape was the 2014 Vuelta. I think that's total nonsense. I don't think Froome was in top shape there.
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Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:
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Contador wasn't in top shape either in the Vuelta 14'.
But anyway, you're basically saying every single result counts, no matter the circumstances. Fair enough, but... what's your point? What does it count for?
It doesn't help neither in knowing who's the better rider nor who's the strongest in top shape nor who's gonna win the Tour 16'. You know what I mean?
That's why some races are irrelevant, and some others more interesting.
buchanan said:
Contador wasn't in top shape either in the Vuelta 14'.
But anyway, you're basically saying every single result counts, no matter the circumstances. Fair enough, but... what's your point? What does it count for?
It doesn't help neither in knowing who's the better rider nor who's the strongest in top shape nor who's gonna win the Tour 16'. You know what I mean?
That's why some races are irrelevant, and some others more interesting.
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you will never make other people to treat bertie as a sacred cow as you or blurryVII do. I really don't know why you constantly try.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:
Re: Re:
Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:
I dont know why Froome fans are so obssesed with Contador but I do believe its beacuse Froome is living in Contadors shadow...
Whatever the reason is its boring, Froome aint even the biggest threat to Contador this year it will be Quintana so be obsessed with him instead if your life is about hating the greatest GT rider of our generation
Whatever the reason is its boring, Froome aint even the biggest threat to Contador this year it will be Quintana so be obsessed with him instead if your life is about hating the greatest GT rider of our generation
Re: Re:
I think we do know that with respect to the 2015 TdF, Contador wasn't at top shape because of the hard Giro he had just won a little over a month before. I doubt it is intentional, but lots of folks seem to have lost that fact down the memory hole when doing head to head comparisons. As for this year, unless there is a quick turnaround, I think Froome fans will be arguing that he wasn't on form this year. His spring has been decidedly lackluster by his standards. Or his competitors have been able to reach a higher base level. Not sure which yet...
Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:
I think we do know that with respect to the 2015 TdF, Contador wasn't at top shape because of the hard Giro he had just won a little over a month before. I doubt it is intentional, but lots of folks seem to have lost that fact down the memory hole when doing head to head comparisons. As for this year, unless there is a quick turnaround, I think Froome fans will be arguing that he wasn't on form this year. His spring has been decidedly lackluster by his standards. Or his competitors have been able to reach a higher base level. Not sure which yet...
Re: Re:
You're right we can't know for sure, but we can make some slightly educated guesses. I think most will agree that AC was in pretty good form in 2014. Look at how he competed against Froome in the Daupine. That at least tells us that he can do better than he did in the 2013/2015 Tours.
Now, we can argue all day about who would win when they're in top form - we don't need to necessarily hash through those points again, but...I think it's obvious that AC can do better than he did last year.
Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:
You're right we can't know for sure, but we can make some slightly educated guesses. I think most will agree that AC was in pretty good form in 2014. Look at how he competed against Froome in the Daupine. That at least tells us that he can do better than he did in the 2013/2015 Tours.
Now, we can argue all day about who would win when they're in top form - we don't need to necessarily hash through those points again, but...I think it's obvious that AC can do better than he did last year.
I dont know why it is that Froome fanboys which have no sense of logically bones in them are so insecure and needs to always compare Froome with Contador, I find it hillarious but at this point boring aswell Is it beacuse Froome is in Contador shadows and you cant accept it or what?
Anyway as I said boring boring, Quintana however im more worried about as of wether how much better he has become this year, that on the other hand is far more interesting than Froome to tell you the truth we all know what he has to offer, just as we know a Contador on equal conditions as him would have no problem smoking his ass the vuelta proved.
Is it beacuse Froome is in Contador shadows and you cant accept it or what? Anyway as I said boring boring, Quintana however im more worried about as of wether how much better he has become this year, that on the other hand is far more interesting than Froome to tell you the truth we all know what he has to offer, just as we know a Contador on equal conditions as him would have no problem smoking his ass the vuelta proved.
Contador is gonna rek froome on that dauphine prologue though but if he loses, it's because froome rode romandie!
Re: Re:
And who's fault was that. Contador decided to go for the Giro no one forced him.
The concequence was giving up the race that matters to Froome for free.
But Contador's weak performance in the Giro (compared to previous performances) should leave people doubting that he could have gone one on one with Froome in July.
Publicus said:Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:
I think we do know that with respect to the 2015 TdF, Contador wasn't at top shape because of the hard Giro he had just won a little over a month before. I doubt it is intentional, but lots of folks seem to have lost that fact down the memory hole when doing head to head comparisons. As for this year, unless there is a quick turnaround, I think Froome fans will be arguing that he wasn't on form this year. His spring has been decidedly lackluster by his standards. Or his competitors have been able to reach a higher base level. Not sure which yet...
And who's fault was that. Contador decided to go for the Giro no one forced him.
The concequence was giving up the race that matters to Froome for free.
But Contador's weak performance in the Giro (compared to previous performances) should leave people doubting that he could have gone one on one with Froome in July.
Re: Re:
Contador said it before the Giro, he was below peak. "I'am not at 2014 Tour level, but I'm in good shape".
He didn't aim for a full peak because of double purposes, turns out it didn't work at all but at least he tried.
Also a lot of people seem to forget he had a bad crash and dislocated his shoulder, we don't know how that affected him.
The Hitch said:
Contador said it before the Giro, he was below peak. "I'am not at 2014 Tour level, but I'm in good shape".
He didn't aim for a full peak because of double purposes, turns out it didn't work at all but at least he tried.
Also a lot of people seem to forget he had a bad crash and dislocated his shoulder, we don't know how that affected him.
Re: Re:
I kinda agree. Contador definitely can do better than in 2013/15, thats very obvious. But my comment wasnt about that, it was about blackmamba who said that the vuelta 2014 is the best comparison between Froome and Contador. And while Contador was definitely not at his best in 2013/15 Froome also definitely wasnt at his best in the vuelta 2014. Maybe it was the indeed the closest between the two condition wise, but still this result just tells us zero about how they would compete against each other if they are both at 100% because if it would, we could simply say Contador is better, case closed. (And I think all of you know its not that easy)Jspear said:Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:
You're right we can't know for sure, but we can make some slightly educated guesses. I think most will agree that AC was in pretty good form in 2014. Look at how he competed against Froome in the Daupine. That at least tells us that he can do better than he did in the 2013/2015 Tours.
Now, we can argue all day about who would win when they're in top form - we don't need to necessarily hash through those points again, but...I think it's obvious that AC can do better than he did last year.
The giro is definitely a good explanation, but I don't say that Froome is definitely better, I say that its impossible to say who is better, and like the giro affected Contador, Froome's crash in 2014 might have affected him equally. Actually the only possible head to head comparison we could make would be from the 2013 tdf because Contador doesnt really have an explanation why he was so far behind Froome. Using it as a comparison is only useless because its so obvious, Contador wasnt at his best there.Publicus said:
Re: Re:
How can you compare both situations?
In 2015, Contador was at a real disadvantage, Froome was not in 2014, he was on equal ground.
Good lord, Contador crashed too in 2014, later than Froome, so less recovery time before the Vuelta and had a worse injury. Seriously now
Gigs_98 said:
How can you compare both situations?
In 2015, Contador was at a real disadvantage, Froome was not in 2014, he was on equal ground.
Good lord, Contador crashed too in 2014, later than Froome, so less recovery time before the Vuelta and had a worse injury. Seriously now
I just looked it up, Froome broke his wrist. His *** wrist ... Contador had his leg and knee completely messed up and a hairline fracture, I think there's no need to post the horrific pictures. It's just crazy to keep denying they weren't at least on equal ground, if I wanted to be rough, I'd say Contador was at a disadvantage yet again .
Human nature is really curious and absent of logic. Every single one of us try to look at every detail to forget/forgive the mistakes made by the people we idolize while simultaneously trying to remember all the details that can elevate their status.
It's so *** useless to have a debate over who's the best rider... even after this year's Tour, assuming that no big dog will crash out and Contador won't win. Even then people will always have an excuse. If he was in 2009 level he would have on fair and square, blah blah.
If Contador manages to win (and I'd love that to happen), Froome's fans (and Quintana's) will have an excuse. Froome under performed this year, clearly not at his best, blah blah blah.
So useless, yet so entertaining. Continue.
It's so *** useless to have a debate over who's the best rider... even after this year's Tour, assuming that no big dog will crash out and Contador won't win. Even then people will always have an excuse. If he was in 2009 level he would have on fair and square, blah blah.
If Contador manages to win (and I'd love that to happen), Froome's fans (and Quintana's) will have an excuse. Froome under performed this year, clearly not at his best, blah blah blah.
So useless, yet so entertaining. Continue.
Re: Re:
The question was about the balance of power between the two. 2015 TdF isn't a good example because he rode the Giro, so it's not an excuse, it's simply a fact that provides context as to why the 2015 isn't a good reference point.
The Hitch said:Publicus said:Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:
I think we do know that with respect to the 2015 TdF, Contador wasn't at top shape because of the hard Giro he had just won a little over a month before. I doubt it is intentional, but lots of folks seem to have lost that fact down the memory hole when doing head to head comparisons. As for this year, unless there is a quick turnaround, I think Froome fans will be arguing that he wasn't on form this year. His spring has been decidedly lackluster by his standards. Or his competitors have been able to reach a higher base level. Not sure which yet...
And who's fault was that. Contador decided to go for the Giro no one forced him.
The concequence was giving up the race that matters to Froome for free.
But Contador's weak performance in the Giro (compared to previous performances) should leave people doubting that he could have gone one on one with Froome in July.
The question was about the balance of power between the two. 2015 TdF isn't a good example because he rode the Giro, so it's not an excuse, it's simply a fact that provides context as to why the 2015 isn't a good reference point.
Re:
Froome had fractures to both his left wrist and his right hand after the Tour crashes. But yes you would think Contadors injuries were worse.
BlurryVII said:
Froome had fractures to both his left wrist and his right hand after the Tour crashes. But yes you would think Contadors injuries were worse.
Re: Re:
Hi recovery was one week, I could accept 2, and he had 8 days ridden in le Tour, even some mountains,... Froome was to la Vuelta just with 3 days competition since Dauphine, that is not a good preparation.
I am not going to commet about the injuries, but I am not sure wich was worse.
Your comment anyway was bias.
BlurryVII said:Gigs_98 said:
How can you compare both situations?
In 2015, Contador was at a real disadvantage, Froome was not in 2014, he was on equal ground.
Good lord, Contador crashed too in 2014, later than Froome, so less recovery time before the Vuelta and had a worse injury. Seriously now
Hi recovery was one week, I could accept 2, and he had 8 days ridden in le Tour, even some mountains,... Froome was to la Vuelta just with 3 days competition since Dauphine, that is not a good preparation.
I am not going to commet about the injuries, but I am not sure wich was worse.
Your comment anyway was bias.
Re: Re:
Taxus4a said:BlurryVII said:Gigs_98 said:
How can you compare both situations?
In 2015, Contador was at a real disadvantage, Froome was not in 2014, he was on equal ground.
Good lord, Contador crashed too in 2014, later than Froome, so less recovery time before the Vuelta and had a worse injury. Seriously now
Hi recovery was one week, I could accept 2, and he had 8 days ridden in le Tour, even some mountains,... Froome was to la Vuelta just with 3 days competition since Dauphine, that is not a good preparation.
I am not going to commet about the injuries, but I am not sure wich was worse. In terms to cycling knee is moreimportant, but in terms of seriousness, Froome injury was worse..and of course wrists are very important for cycling as well, mayve Froome could start to pedal before Contador,he never lost that capacity, but to start going in a road in a normal way of course Contador did before.
Your comment anyway was bias.
Re: Re:
The same analogy can be applied about Froome's 2014 Vuelta as well. It is obvious that Froome wasnt at his best in the Vuelta with all his yoyo-ing and dropping behind Aru Jrod and Piti in several cases, several times.
By the same analogy Froome might not have an explanation why he was below par and couldn't achieve his peak in the whole Vuelta.
P.S. I guess we are focused in their closest comparison in GT only. Because if we leave GTs aside there is always the first two stages of the 2014 Dauphine which remain the best medium of comparison of their performances in(or close to) top shape.
Gigs_98 said:I kinda agree. Contador definitely can do better than in 2013/15, thats very obvious. But my comment wasnt about that, it was about blackmamba who said that the vuelta 2014 is the best comparison between Froome and Contador. And while Contador was definitely not at his best in 2013/15 Froome also definitely wasnt at his best in the vuelta 2014. Maybe it was the indeed the closest between the two condition wise, but still this result just tells us zero about how they would compete against each other if they are both at 100% because if it would, we could simply say Contador is better, case closed. (And I think all of you know its not that easy)Jspear said:Gigs_98 said:Thats nonsense. The only thing we know is that this vuelta was the race where the time difference between the two was the smallest. What we don't know is if it was also the race where both were the closest to being in top shape. In every other race one of them was by far stronger and there wasnt really a duel, nevertheless it is possible that Froome is just much stronger than Contador even if both are in top shape and that the tour 2013/15 gave us an even better impression of the balance of power between the two than the Vuelta 2014. We just don't know. Hopefully we will after this years tour but right now we just don't have reliable evidence.blackmamba said:Neither was Contador but its the closest they been eachother conditions wice in a GT god how hard is it to understand ?buchanan said:
You're right we can't know for sure, but we can make some slightly educated guesses. I think most will agree that AC was in pretty good form in 2014. Look at how he competed against Froome in the Daupine. That at least tells us that he can do better than he did in the 2013/2015 Tours.
Now, we can argue all day about who would win when they're in top form - we don't need to necessarily hash through those points again, but...I think it's obvious that AC can do better than he did last year.
The giro is definitely a good explanation, but I don't say that Froome is definitely better, I say that its impossible to say who is better, and like the giro affected Contador, Froome's crash in 2014 might have affected him equally. Actually the only possible head to head comparison we could make would be from the 2013 tdf because Contador doesnt really have an explanation why he was so far behind Froome. Using it as a comparison is only useless because its so obvious, Contador wasnt at his best there.Publicus said:
The same analogy can be applied about Froome's 2014 Vuelta as well. It is obvious that Froome wasnt at his best in the Vuelta with all his yoyo-ing and dropping behind Aru Jrod and Piti in several cases, several times.
By the same analogy Froome might not have an explanation why he was below par and couldn't achieve his peak in the whole Vuelta.
P.S. I guess we are focused in their closest comparison in GT only. Because if we leave GTs aside there is always the first two stages of the 2014 Dauphine which remain the best medium of comparison of their performances in(or close to) top shape.
Yeah, Froome riding Valverde on a minute is definitely weak. Should do 2 minutes at least. Valverde was totally in his best ever shape at PSM.
Re: Re:
Don't know how Flo can just declare 'No' (like that wins the debate)?
I think Ataraxus is right. I have often thought myself that the beginning of the 2014 Dauphine is the very closest both have been to peak condition at the same time. They were both exactly at the same point in their preparation for the Tour. And Froome proved to be the slightly stronger, winning the prologue by 8 seconds and beating Contador in the next day MTF. Froome won the two stages and was in the leader's jersey. It's clear they were both really going for it as well.
What came later:- between the Tour and Vuelta; how their respective rehabilitation from injuries went; their respective training; the sort of condition both showed up in at that Vuelta; - one can only speculate. But it certainly did not look like a top shape Froome to me.
LaFlorecita said:
Don't know how Flo can just declare 'No' (like that wins the debate)?
I think Ataraxus is right. I have often thought myself that the beginning of the 2014 Dauphine is the very closest both have been to peak condition at the same time. They were both exactly at the same point in their preparation for the Tour. And Froome proved to be the slightly stronger, winning the prologue by 8 seconds and beating Contador in the next day MTF. Froome won the two stages and was in the leader's jersey. It's clear they were both really going for it as well.
What came later:- between the Tour and Vuelta; how their respective rehabilitation from injuries went; their respective training; the sort of condition both showed up in at that Vuelta; - one can only speculate. But it certainly did not look like a top shape Froome to me.
Re:
Not respective to Froome mate. Not respective to Froome.
your comment gives an indication that AC, Jrod and Piti could have gone faster. But not Froome.
Miburo said:And Contador is prob gonna ride at least 2 more years. Well who said that before heh?
He also destroyed you guys plans of giro-vuelta in 2017, he wants to do the tour.
Those times of lagos are stupid, there were standing still most of the times in 2014
Not respective to Froome mate. Not respective to Froome.
your comment gives an indication that AC, Jrod and Piti could have gone faster. But not Froome.
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