Fuentes, Saiz and others to stand trial

[GreasyMonkey]

We know that Puerto broke 5 1/2 years ago, and we were told no charges were coming. We know politicians from the previous government, like Zapaterro, and Lissavezky were protecting Spanish sportsmen, against accusations.

Now, a few days after a change in government, we finally get charges laid ? This can't be a coincidence.

Do you seriously think that Rajoy & the Partido Populare parlimentarians have nothing else to do?

Come on, this has been in the wheels of justice for at least six months, and the elections had not even been called at that time (were due March 2012).

 

[craig1985]

Not much money coming from the Cycling side though.
Alberto is already blowing his budget it seems. Can't do it all.

If your theory holds true, poupou, cycling will bear the brunt of this expose.
Maybe it will be payback for Oscar P breaking the Omerta on TV?
Mosquera already got spanked yesterday.

He hardly did that.

 

[Andynonomous]

Do you seriously think that Rajoy & the Partido Populare parlimentarians have nothing else to do?

Come on, this has been in the wheels of justice for at least six months, and the elections had not even been called at that time (were due March 2012).

Then why did it take 5 1/2 years, and the prosecutors said that no laws were broken ? Why would they change their minds after 5 1/2 years ?

 

[Swabian Lass]

About time too. just have to hope that it isn't a show trial and that names get named.

 

[hrotha]

Then why did it take 5 1/2 years, and the prosecutors said that no laws were broken ? Why would they change their minds after 5 1/2 years ?

I wouldn't know why it took so long, but GreasyMonkey is right. We knew this was going to happen for months.

Also, why would the Partido Popular have more interest than the PSOE in seeing this trial happen? Are you aware that Marta Domínguez is allegedly involved in Puerto and that she's just been elected as a senator for the PP?

 

[Race Radio]

Come on, did his patients ever complain of health problems due to his treatments?

I am calling this a show trial also, and wishing with all my might that I'll be proven massively wrong.

Jesus Manzano was not a happy customer

He is probably just taking a nap

 

[sniper]

I wouldn't know why it took so long, but GreasyMonkey is right. We knew this was going to happen for months.

Also, why would the Partido Popular have more interest than the PSOE in seeing this trial happen? Are you aware that Marta Domínguez is allegedly involved in Puerto and that she's just been elected as a senator for the PP?

Note also that bringing to light massive orchestrated doping within Spanish soccer and tennis will not win the PP any support.
Indeed, the Dominguez affair would rather suggest that the PP have a hand in covering up doping, rather than revealing it.

If we are lucky, this new inquiry into Fuentes c.s. will also reveal more clearly how politics, sports and doping are interwoven in Spain.
It is clear that they are, somehow, interwoven. (Probably not only in Spain, but currently most clearly in Spain.)

 

[Cloxxki]

Jesus Manzano was not a happy customer

He is probably just taking a nap

I didn't know.
That might be a significant fact. Without it, the doc would be claiming he was just making sure the young people were being taken care of, not left to fool around by themselves.

 

[Polish]

Jesus Manzano was not a happy customer

He is probably just taking a nap

Ahhh, its the "obligatory manzano picture" from RR.
How many times have you posted that picture?
A dozen times? 2 dozen? More?

You really need to find some different pictures.
Will make your point better.

And for each picture like the Manzano there will be thousands and thousands of pictures of healthy blood dopers kicking ***.
Fuentes customers Jan, Ivan, Tyler, Frank, Alejandro, Francisco, Michele. Josebra, AC and so many others.
Thousand of pictures, professional photogs and amatuers.

You need to find some more pictures, RR, besides Manzano.
There are many hundreds of gruesome crash pictures you know. Some of them were blood dopers. Maybe show some of those pictures too.

You know, it is easy to argue that blood doping is illegal and cheating.
But it is tough to argue that it is unhealthy when properly administered.
Ask Bassons. Ask Hinault and Moser.

 

[Benotti69]

Ask Bassons?

For someone who didn't dope I doubt Bassons would agree with you.

As for Hinault his mentality seemed to suffer from doping ending up in an institute shuffling around in a circus every july.

 

[Polish]

For someone who didn't dope I doubt Bassons would agree with you.

As for Hinault his mentality seemed to suffer from doping ending up in an institute shuffling around in a circus every july.

Not sure if Bassons agrees with me, but I agree with Bassons.
You CAN be healthier riding the Tour on drugs:

That&#8217]can be healthier[/b] doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything.”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bassons-wont-judge-landis-and-armstrong

If you want to win the War Against Doping, does not make sense to use the health argument. Use the "Moral" or "Cheating" or "Burn in Hell" argument.

If certain PEDS and PETS ever become legal, it will because they are health enhancing. Pistures like the "Manzano" picture will be used to HELP the cause for legalization, not hinder.

The Health Argument will be used to legalize certain performance enhancing drugs and certain performance enhancing techniques

 

[Race Radio]

Only Polish could tote the health benefits of blood doping

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Not sure if Bassons agrees with me, but I agree with Bassons.
You CAN be healthier riding the Tour on drugs:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bassons-wont-judge-landis-and-armstrong

If you want to win the War Against Doping, does not make sense to use the health argument. Use the "Moral" or "Cheating" or "Burn in Hell" argument.

If certain PEDS and PETS ever become legal, it will because they are health enhancing. Pistures like the "Manzano" picture will be used to HELP the cause for legalization, not hinder.

The Health Argument will be used to legalize certain performance enhancing drugs and certain performance enhancing techniques

Nice chop job of the Bassons quote - here is the rest of it, you can get one of your Lance photos ready as it describes him very well.

"I was just lucky - I’d had a balanced upbringing, lots of love in my life, and no void which made me want to dope. Refusing to take drugs was easy for me, whereas other people have things missing in their lives which mean that’s not the case. Doping is always a response to a void, a need – whether it’s for money, or success, or love, or something else. That’s why it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too, because you can be healthier doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything.”

 

[Epicycle]

Fuentes almost offed Manzano twice. Once at the Tour, where that picture comes from, and then again when Manzano was taking a train during the time he was preparing for the Tour of Portugal. That was the blood doping one, he had just gotten a transfusion. Manzano got really, really sick on the train and thought he was going to die.

 

[sniper]

Nice chop job of the Bassons quote - here is the rest of it, you can get one of your Lance photos ready as it describes him very well.

........+1...

 

[Race Radio]

Ahh, and how about when Beltran fell over in the neutral zone.....from "Dehydration"? Or when Tommy D lost a season because of poor, um, medical care.

What would you expect when the program is run by a semi ***, chain smoking, Belgie "cook"?

 

[Polish]

Nice chop job of the Bassons quote - here is the rest of it, you can get one of your Lance photos ready as it describes him very well.

What do you mean chop job. You can reprint the entire interview if you like, but the fact remains that Bassons says:

"it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too, because you can be healthier doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything.”

It fills a need for healthier riding. What do you think Bassons is saying?
Hinault would agree. And many many many other riders and coaches.
You can ride healthier on dope.

It will be interesting to see how Fuentes and his defense handle the charges.
Charges of harming the public health...

Will they argue that they did not do it. Deny the evidence of doping?

Or will they argue that they did not harm health.
Does the evidence of healthy dopers outweigh the evidence sickly ones?
Many more healthy dopers than sickly ones argument.
Should we outlaw vaccines because a few get sick type of argument.

 

[frenchfry]

What do you mean chop job. You can reprint the entire interview if you like, but the fact remains that Bassons says:

"it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too, because you can be healthier doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything.”

It fills a need for healthier riding. What do you think Bassons is saying?
Hinault would agree. And many many many other riders and coaches.
You can ride healthier on dope.

It will be interesting to see how Fuentes and his defense handle the charges.
Charges of harming the public health...

Will they argue that they did not do it. Deny the evidence of doping?

Or will they argue that they did not harm health.
Does the evidence of healthy dopers outweigh the evidence sickly ones?
Many more healthy dopers than sickly ones argument.
Should we outlaw vaccines because a few get sick type of argument.

This is even worse than your usual drivel. You appear to have lost all semblance of self respect in your quest to promote wonderboy and his doping ways.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Polish has found a quote by Bassons (in a statement in which Bassons argues against the use of doping) that does confirm arguing against doping on health grounds is (in Bassons eyes) is unwise. With links and all.

So instead of lambasting him about his inability to read, some of you might want to reflect on the fact that Polish, sometimes, actually does offer an angle that flies against what people prefer to hear, but is actually properly documented. and certainly adds to a healthy discussion with differing views from people in the field.

He didn't chop either. That Bassons overall finds doping a negative thing does not negate the fact that from a health point of view, Bassons feels that there are potential "health" benefit to be had from (I assume) some doping varieties, expertly administrated. Which was the element Polish highlighted. A reminder, that Bassons, overall, is against doping, is useful, but it doesn't take anything away from the fact that Bassons genuinely appears to differ on the "how it affects a rider's health" angle.

If Bassons is right with his assertion is another thing. Likewise, if Bassons included blood doping specifically as a "healthier" option. His automatic assumption that it does is stretched, but so is the assumption that it doesn't. Bassons' words here don't lean in either direction on this.

Regardless, Polish is falling back here on the words of someone "in the field".

A proper discussion seems more appropriate than "reports about trolling". Bassons wasn't trolling. Polish is totally within his rights to add Bassons words to a discussion on the rather narrow "was Fuentes' treatment against the public health" angle.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Polish has found a quote by Bassons (in a statement in which Bassons argues against the use of doping) that does confirm arguing against doping on health grounds is (in Bassons eyes) is unwise. With links and all.

So instead of lambasting him about his inability to read, some of you might want to reflect on the fact that Polish, sometimes, actually does offer an angle that flies against what people prefer to hear, but is actually properly documented. and certainly adds to a healthy discussion with differing views from people in the field.

Polish used to offer posts that lead to 'healthy discussion', that started to slip away 2 years ago - now he very occasionally offers humour, that's all. .

He didn't chop either. That Bassons overall finds doping a negative thing does not negate the fact that from a health point of view, Bassons feels that there are potential "health" benefit to be had from (I assume) some doping varieties, expertly administrated. Which was the element Polish highlighted. A reminder, that Bassons, overall, is against doping, is useful, but it doesn't take anything away from the fact that Bassons genuinely appears to differ on the "how it affects a rider's health" angle.

He most certainly did chop - when Bassons said "That’s why it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too," - he was looking at that from the viewpoint of a doper who perceives a "void".

If Bassons is right with his assertion is another thing. Likewise, if Bassons included blood doping specifically as a "healthier" option. His automatic assumption that it does is stretched, but so is the assumption that it doesn't. Bassons' words here don't lean in either direction on this.

Regardless, Polish is falling back here on the words of someone "in the field".

A proper discussion seems more appropriate than "reports about trolling". Bassons wasn't trolling. Polish is totally within his rights to add Bassons words to a discussion on the rather narrow "was Fuentes' treatment against the public health" angle.

I certainly didn't report him for trolling, even if thats what it is but I excercised my right to point out that he was quoting someone selectively.

 

[Cloxxki]

Even the real fanboys realize that Polish is just the best man on our team, playing devil's advocate, in a way that triggers out brains to oppose him. He may have popped the cherry off more fanboys than the lot of us combined.

 

[Winterfold]

Well done Dr. M

Nothing will come of this - some cyclists 'doctors' will go to jail for a year or less - if I was them I would take the time rather than talk.

And I doubt Spain will take too kindly to it's sporting bubble being burst...

 

[Francois the Postman]

He most certainly did chop - when Bassons said "That’s why it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too," - he was looking at that from the viewpoint of a doper who perceives a "void".

No, he is most certainly talking from his own pov.

Doping is always a response to a void, a need – whether it’s for money, or success, or love, or something else. That’s why it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too, because you can be healthier doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything.”

That "actually" is where it stops being from the void user pov, and he is acknowledging that as far as Bassons himself is concerned, in actuality, after all has been said, there is something to be said for that line of thought.

I certainly didn't report him for trolling, even if thats what it is but I excercised my right to point out that he was quoting someone selectively.

He was reported, I'll leave it that. I went in to check up on the post, and found numerous attacks here on the validity of his contribution.

In this case, Polish is both on topic, linked-up, and certainly reading what can be read: that Bassons himself argues there can be a health gain from doping.

Raising an issue that has been chewed over to death can be said for all arguments regarding Lance, from all corners. I agree that Bassons is not arguing for use of doping, but he seems to come to that conclusion based on the "needs" and "void" angle, not the health one. Certainly word dragging in if it is glossed over. But that is an interesting and less black-and-white assertion than that is usually heard, and very easily brushed off the table here by those who are dismissing it out of hand since it comes from "Polish". The whole of my real contribution here, to be frank.

And since I have been round all these doping angles a few times too often, and have long made my own mind up, I am bowing out of this discussion Dr.

I am now curious if this "public health" issue will come up in trail, and how.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, he is most certainly talking from his own pov.

Doping is always a response to a void, a need – whether it’s for money, or success, or love, or something else. That’s why it’s a mistake to fight the war on doping in terms of health – because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too, because you can be healthier doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything.”

That "actually" is where it stops being from the void user pov, and he is acknowledging that as far as Bassons himself is concerned, in actuality, after all has been said, there is something to be said for that line of thought.

Sorry Francois - but you highlighted the wrong word.
Bassons says "when you analysis it" and he follows that immediately with "doping responds to a need there too".

If Bassons said:
"...because, if you actually analyse it you can be healthier doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything." - then Polish may have a point.

But Bassons includes:
".... because, if you actually analyse it, doping responds to a need there too, because you can be healthier doing the Tour de France on drugs than without anything".

That is abundantly obvious when the "need" Bassons refers to is included in the post - which was not done.

He was reported, I'll leave it that. I went in to check up on the post, and found numerous attacks here on the validity of his contribution.

In this case, Polish is both on topic, linked-up, and certainly reading what can be read: that Bassons himself argues there can be a health gain from doping.

I have neither a problem that someone reported Polish, or that his post is left. - I am more than happy to rebut his post where it was made.

But don't forget - that a post "on topic, linked-up, and certainly reading what can be read" - can still be trolling, in fact that is what the best trolls do.

Raising an issue that has been chewed over to death can be said for all arguments regarding Lance, from all corners. I agree that Bassons is not arguing for use of doping, but he seems to come to that conclusion based on the "needs" and "void" angle, not the health one. Certainly word dragging in if it is glossed over. But that is an interesting and less black-and-white assertion than that is usually heard, and very easily brushed off the table here by those who are dismissing it out of hand since it comes from "Polish". The whole of my real contribution here, to be frank.

And since I have been round all these doping angles a few times too often, and have long made my own mind up, I am bowing out of this discussion Dr.

I am now curious if this "public health" issue will come up in trail, and how.

Which is why I take particular offence that someone like Bassons who offers a correct and insightful analysis to the real motives for doping has that considered analysis misrepresented.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I have Polish on ignore, so I don't read his posts unless someone quotes them.
However, are we really disagreeing that the TdF can be done in a healthier manner being blood doped or otherwise vs. cleanly? Really?

I would think it is quite obvious, as much as it pains me to agree with Polish, that there are health benefits to doping under such extreme exertion. Our bodies are not designed for such hardship. Doping is a manner of hedging against the side effects of these endurance efforts.

I'm not saying that doping is justified or whatever, but I think we need to admit that the procedures or chemicals on the banned list can have some beneficial effects in races requiring such extreme performance.