Garmin Cervelo Dismiss Matt White

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Oct 25, 2010
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So for all the reasons they COULD have chosen to withold his pay, they decided to go with "riding the wrong bike".

He then points-out that "Duh, I did a lot more than that (when it was to your benefit) and you didn't fire me" and says "pays me my money, *****!"

So, being the strategic thinker he believes himself to be, he concocts this bogus scenario that he'd been duped 2 years ago, and so he tosses Matt White under the bus. But Matt was leaving anyway. No harm done. Right?

It sounds like JV just wants to rob the guy of his final weeks of pay to be able to buy himself another funky outfit.

Too much JV weirdness for me.
 
Colm.Murphy said:
While Vaughters is talking up the blackmail bit, it looks like Mr. Lowe has looked into how he's been damaged in all this.

More like when Lowe did not get paid for December, he began thinking of ways that Slipstream had damaged him, like, "Mommy, they made me ride too much and damaged my health." Instead of just going after December's wages, they overplayed their hand by asking for an unrealistic amount that ultimately caused the blow up. Maybe if they had asked for 150% of December's wages then none of this would have happened.

Hardie may not have thought about how stabbing White in the back would affect the rest of Lowe's career.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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BroDeal said:
More like when Lowe did not get paid for December, he began thinking of ways that Slipstream had damaged him, like, "Mommy, they made me ride too much and damaged my health." Instead of just going after December's wages, they overplayed their hand by asking for an unrealistic amount that ultimately caused the blow up. Maybe if they had asked for 150% of December's wages then none of this would have happened.

Hardie may not have thought about how stabbing White in the back would affect the rest of Lowe's career.
You can always rely on a lawyer to 'massage' a clients hurt feelings in to psychological injury and morph a negotiation between reasonable individuals into a greed fest. Your point about the long term consequences is a well made one.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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Colm.Murphy said:
'...' I noted here that the entire Del Moral scandal could have been handled without disclosing who the rider had been '...'

Nice post above but I don't agree with this bit. The very first question would have been 'who was the rider and do they still ride for Garmin?' Imagine the **** storm if Garmin said 'We won't disclose who it was cause we can't prove they got a program from Del Moral; they might sue us. We also can't tell you if they still work for us or it would be too obvious who they are.' Even with a PR artist's sugar coating, that would go down like the proverbial cup of cold sick.

BikeCentric said:
'...'I mean, wouldn't it have been far more prudent to simply pay the rider his last months salary rather than withhold it over a minor technicality?'...'

If you are in the business of running a cycling team, you might think that riders potentially ****ing off the sponsors is more than a minor technicality. You might even think it was prudent to prove a point to your sponsor.

Can't wait to hear Lowe's side of the story. Despite quibbling over details, JV has some explaining to do IMO.....
 
Nov 9, 2010
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BroDeal said:
Hardie may not have thought about how stabbing White in the back would affect the rest of Lowe's career.

i think matt's downfall was an unseen consequence of what lowe and hardie may have been trying to pull - haride from my understanding is quite initimate with due process and the workings of the pro peleton, management and administration through experience and work in "cycling pathways".

in my observation of how he has handled the situation, i don't think matt will have an issue in finding future work.

but i agree brodeal - i don't think lowe has done himself any favours
 
Oct 29, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
Exactly. It's hilarious actually. We even have an Administrator of this website claiming in this thread that he'd fire me for "bullying staff" and "jumping down people's throats" because of my prior absolute insistence that e-mail attachments be read.

No he didn't. He responded to what you actually wrote as a response to this:

I'm interested in knowing what email program searches pdf attachments for words.

To which you replied:

Oh please, I would fire you for such a comment if you worked for me.

To which Martin replied:

And you'd get fired by me for being a terrrible manager. Jumping down people's throats may work for you (according to you) but I would rather keep someone that questions obviously flawed logic than someone that bullys staff.

There is enough drama going around without needing to make some up. You would fire someone for asking a related and arguably critical question, without even bothering to find out why the question was asked. You assumed you knew the (better) answer and it didn't comply to your way of thinking. That is considered terrible management by many schools of thought on management styles.

More importantly. This might shock you. We do pretty much without exception all operate in the "grown up world", and several of us are very experienced in the grown up world for business to boot.

So you can keep your condensing assumption that you are so much more versed than others here "your private business", from now on You are not unique here, and you are expected to post respectfully.

It is an attachment to this forum. Glad you read these sort of memos. [see how we can all play those games and how infantile it is?]

Your general arguments are fine. Just less of the drama and condescension please. It cheapens the points you are making.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
Exactly. It's hilarious actually. We even have an Administrator of this website claiming in this thread that he'd fire me for "bullying staff" and "jumping down people's throats" because of my prior absolute insistence that e-mail attachments be read.

No he didn't. He responded to what you actually wrote as a response to this:

I'm interested in knowing what email program searches pdf attachments for words.

To which you replied:

Oh please, I would fire you for such a comment if you worked for me.

To which Martin replied:

And you'd get fired by me for being a terrrible manager. Jumping down people's throats may work for you (according to you) but I would rather keep someone that questions obviously flawed logic than someone that bullys staff.

There is enough drama going around without needing to make some up. You would fire someone for asking a related and arguably critical question, without even bothering to find out why the question was asked. You assumed you knew the (better) answer and it didn't comply to your way of thinking. That is considered terrible management by many schools of thought on management styles.

I'm also in a profession where it's considered absolute negligence and a firing offense for not reading one's e-mail attachments, so I guess we just have a lot of people on here who don't have any experience in the business world for grown-ups.

More importantly. This might shock you. We do pretty much without exception all operate in the "grown up world", and several of us are very experienced in the grown up world for business to boot.

So you can keep your condescending assumption that you are so much more versed than others here "your private business", from now on. You are not unique here, and you are expected to post respectfully.

It is an attachment to this forum. Glad you read these sort of memos. [see how we can all play those games and how infantile it is?]

Your general arguments are fine. Just less of the drama and condescension please. It cheapens the points you are making.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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I Watch Cycling In July said:
Nice post above but I don't agree with this bit. The very first question would have been 'who was the rider and do they still ride for Garmin?' Imagine the **** storm if Garmin said 'We won't disclose who it was cause we can't prove they got a program from Del Moral; they might sue us. We also can't tell you if they still work for us or it would be too obvious who they are.' Even with a PR artist's sugar coating, that would go down like the proverbial cup of cold sick.



If you are in the business of running a cycling team, you might think that riders potentially ****ing off the sponsors is more than a minor technicality. You might even think it was prudent to prove a point to your sponsor.

Can't wait to hear Lowe's side of the story. Despite quibbling over details, JV has some explaining to do IMO.....

I think you have blended the issue.

The primary problem was White sent "a rider" to an unapproved medical facility for a performance test. Who the rider is really is immaterial to the infraction. To some extent, the specific clinic it was is also not the story. It is the rules violation.

Slipstream has a problem because they *should* have noticed that White sent "a rider" to an clinic, violating the team policy. If you have a policy like that, you must have a system to review and assure the policies are being adhered to (and right away, not like 18 mos later!). Enter Dr. Steffen, who JV then rushes to support. To me, the failing of Steffen to notice the policy violation, not once but twice, should also result in his dismissal, as it is a failing equal to White's. The breakdown had two culprits. One still works there, the other doesn't.

That it was Mr. Howe, or any other rider on the team, really does not matter. Since Mr. Howe had an active dispute over pay, and was no longer an employee, means there was no reason to take the high ground and observe even the most basic confidentiality as to medical records or possible view that by naming the rider they might be viewed in a negative light (defamation) simply by being "the guy".

I think Slipstream exposed themselves to some legal risk by disclosing an unnecessary part of the facts that could have easily been withheld under the header of medical confidentiality and privacy.

JV does have some explaining to do, related to naming Howe and why White is being held to one standard and Steffen is being held to another, or rather if it is something so important why isn't someones sole responsibility to assure the policy is strictly adhered.

....
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Landis' op-ed on Garmin, is much more truth than any of Peppercom and Vaughters' managing of media and public perception.

Peppercom = Public Strategies. dont be so credulous folks.

think "clean team" = LiveStrong
that analogy aint perfect, more so metaphor - more lies.
 
“We note the material in the press regarding Trent Lowe,” the statement read.

“We note that this material is factually inaccurate and we reject the allegations made.

“We look forward to resolving these issues as soon as possible without any further damage being done to cycling and people’s careers and reputations.”

(Hardie in SBS article).

That's a carefully worded statement, not giving anything away. It seems to carry the thought there is still stuff worth talking about with Garmin, and that Hardie/Lowe think they have chips to bargain with.

-dB
 
needasmoke said:

Hardie said a whole lot of nothing:

“We note the material in the press regarding Trent Lowe,” the statement read.

“We note that this material is factually inaccurate and we reject the allegations made.

“We look forward to resolving these issues as soon as possible without any further damage being done to cycling and people’s careers and reputations.”

"Factually inaccurate" to a lawyer could mean anything from "We did not try to blackmail him for $500K" to "We demanded 501K, not 500K". This statement does nothing to stop the whirlwind of rumor and speculation.

I wonder if General Custer had an advisor like Hardie.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
rata de sentina said:
You can always rely on a lawyer to 'massage' a clients hurt feelings in to psychological injury and morph a negotiation between reasonable individuals into a greed fest. Your point about the long term consequences is a well made one.

...yea, because only attorneys are money grubbing wh0res...yea, the client never has anything to do with it.:rolleyes:
 
May 21, 2010
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BroDeal said:
Hardie said a whole lot of nothing:



"Factually inaccuarate" to a lawyer could mean anything from "We did not try to blackmail him for $500K" to "We demanded 501K, not 500K". This statement does nothing to stop the whirlwind of rumor and speculation.

I wonder if General Custer had an advisor like Hardie.

No, no, no! They just wanted to know about a 401K!! :(
 
Oct 25, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Hardie said a whole lot of nothing:



"Factually inaccuarate" to a lawyer could mean anything from "We did not try to blackmail him for $500K" to "We demanded 501K, not 500K". This statement does nothing to stop the whirlwind of rumor and speculation.

I wonder if General Custer had an advisor like Hardie.

+1.

I wonder what Hardie's advisory capacity is? I suspect not as a lawyer (I see no signs on the net he has a private practice and I doubt Deakin Uni, his employer, would be hiring him out). More likely helping out on pro bono basis as an academic and/or friend keen to further his research into doping in cycling (there is potential for a real conflict of interest here - e.g. what he might want to expose might not be in his "client's" interests etc).

Clearly he and Lowe have gone to see a lawyer in the last day or so but judging by the stiffness of the holding (non) statement (it could be read as very defensive - a bit like Custer's Last Stand) they have some catching up to do and would be well advised to move quickly.
 
dbrower said:
(Hardie in SBS article).

That's a carefully worded statement, not giving anything away. It seems to carry the thought there is still stuff worth talking about with Garmin, and that Hardie/Lowe think they have chips to bargain with.

-dB
Sounds like that to me too...
 
Jul 25, 2009
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Colm.Murphy said:
I think you have blended the issue.

I reciprocate your thoughts:)

Colm.Murphy said:
Slipstream has a problem because they *should* have noticed that White sent "a rider" to an clinic, violating the team policy. If you have a policy like that, you must have a system to review and assure the policies are being adhered to (and right away, not like 18 mos later!).

Two separate visits to Del Moral's clinic.

One for routine health check blood tests mandated by UCI, not a medical consultation, not against team policy, not referred by Matt White (at least according to Slipstream's statements). But the results form, with the doctor's name, was copied to JV and Steffen.

The other visit was, according to slipstreams claims, a medical consultation including VO2 testing. That visit was against team policy and Lowe was referred by Matt White. There have been no public statements about what documentation the team received after this. Did the team doctor get a copy of the results? Are team members obligated to reveal all their medical information to the team:eek:? Did Slipstream pay the bill? If so, was payment processed by an office clerk, or someone who should have recognized the clinic name?

Colm.Murphy said:
Enter Dr. Steffen, who JV then rushes to support. To me, the failing of Steffen to notice the policy violation, not once but twice, should also result in his dismissal, as it is a failing equal to White's. The breakdown had two culprits. One still works there, the other doesn't.

So far, we have been told about documentary evidence of one visit only. The visit that was NOT a breach of policy. In an ideal world, Steffen would have noticed the name and taken some appropriate action. I certainly want to know why that didn't happen. The explanation better be a good one too, or I'll view Steffen much as I view Alan Lim. But so far, nobody has disclosed a direct breach of policy, which would justify Steffen being immediately dismissed.

Colm.Murphy said:
That it was Mr. Howe, or any other rider on the team, really does not matter. Since Mr. Howe had an active dispute over pay, and was no longer an employee, means there was no reason to take the high ground and observe even the most basic confidentiality as to medical records or possible view that by naming the rider they might be viewed in a negative light (defamation) simply by being "the guy".

The rider does matter. The rider is also in breach of policy if he used a doctor who is not approved by the medical team. That is the essence of what Slipstream is claiming. They cannot be seen to protect such a rider.

I don't really buy Slipstream's claims though. When asked when the team new about the visits to Del Moral, White gave a 'no comment'. Now Lowe's lawyer claims Slipstreams statements are inaccurate and they will talk directly with the team. If $$ change hands quietly, after JV's loud claims of extortion, I will consider all questions about slipstream answered.
 
May 6, 2009
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blackcat said:
Landis' op-ed on Garmin, is much more truth than any of Peppercom and Vaughters' managing of media and public perception.

Peppercom = Public Strategies. dont be so credulous folks.

think "clean team" = LiveStrong
that analogy aint perfect, more so metaphor - more lies.

I get the impression either you, or people you know have had dealings with JV. But can you help a brother out and point him in the right direction on where to find more on JV?

On another point:

In the course of these negotiations, on January 24, 2011, Trent, through his advisor, made it known that there was new information relating to Dr. Luis Garcia Del Moral. At this time they threatened to publicly expose certain information relating to Dr. Luis Garcia del Moral unless Slipstream acceded to their demands, which included a payment of $500,000 to Trent.


How does that not sound like blackmail, and not a civil suit that blackcat said the other day?
 
Jan 20, 2011
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Hardie knows Landis > Hardie tells Landis things > Landis opens writes op-ed > Hardie instructing Landis to 'leak' information?
 
Feb 21, 2010
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Sanitiser said:
Hardie knows Landis > Hardie tells Landis things > Landis opens writes op-ed > Hardie instructing Landis to 'leak' information?


Which "Op-Ed" are you referring to? Is there a link?
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Colm.Murphy said:
Which "Op-Ed" are you referring to? Is there a link?

I believe the reference is to this, from the Landis attacks Vaughters thread. This article was posted on Versus but was taken down within a few hours.
Granville57 said:
Tada!!! :)
The original article on Versus by Neil Browne.
Strangely titled: The Inside Story of of Matt White's Firing :confused:

Floyd Landis has struck out once again at the cycling establishment...

But the point I keep raising is: I don't think this was a recent writing. I think this was part of the emails sent almost a year ago. They are only being "released" publicly at this time. That's how it seems to me.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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I Watch Cycling In July said:
I reciprocate your thoughts:)

Two separate visits to Del Moral's clinic.

One for routine health check blood tests mandated by UCI, not a medical consultation, not against team policy, not referred by Matt White (at least according to Slipstream's statements). But the results form, with the doctor's name, was copied to JV and Steffen.

The other visit was, according to slipstreams claims, a medical consultation including VO2 testing. That visit was against team policy and Lowe was referred by Matt White. There have been no public statements about what documentation the team received after this. Did the team doctor get a copy of the results? Are team members obligated to reveal all their medical information to the team:eek:? Did Slipstream pay the bill? If so, was payment processed by an office clerk, or someone who should have recognized the clinic name?

I guess what I feel is priority here is understanding the order in which these happened. VO2 visit first, at White direction, then the UCI Health Check.

If White directs Lowe to Del Moral, it will be a critical point to understand if White and Lowe both "knew" this was against policy, or if only White "knew" and still directed Lowe to the referral with the assumption that if White was sending him, it must be OK.

Your follow-on questions are "must answers" in my book for Slipstream to come out of this looking like an isolated case where White made simple but fatal error by advising Lowe in an improper way. If they are implicated at all past White, then they are proper screwed.

So far, we have been told about documentary evidence of one visit only. The visit that was NOT a breach of policy. In an ideal world, Steffen would have noticed the name and taken some appropriate action. I certainly want to know why that didn't happen. The explanation better be a good one too, or I'll view Steffen much as I view Alan Lim. But so far, nobody has disclosed a direct breach of policy, which would justify Steffen being immediately dismissed.

Yes, but it took days for this to be revealed, and provided many perceived (by me) inconsistencies and contradictions, adding to the confusion (intentional?) of the issues.

The rider does matter. The rider is also in breach of policy if he used a doctor who is not approved by the medical team. That is the essence of what Slipstream is claiming. They cannot be seen to protect such a rider.

I would agree that the rider is technically in breech. The rider does have the dilemma of either A: trusting that his boss had obtained the permissions required for it not to be a breech, B: risk insubordination and possible discipline for not complying with the direction, or C: knew full well, along with White that they were doing something against policy and went along with it.

To me, I guess it really only matters if the option is C, where had the rider still been part of the team in 2011, he'd likely have been sacked as well.

If it were A or B, then citing medical confidentiality closes that issue directly and preserves the good name of the rider, as he'd really been a victim of the circumstance.

I don't really buy Slipstream's claims though. When asked when the team new about the visits to Del Moral, White gave a 'no comment'. Now Lowe's lawyer claims Slipstreams statements are inaccurate and they will talk directly with the team. If $$ change hands quietly, after JV's loud claims of extortion, I will consider all questions about slipstream answered.

Nor do I, not given the handling of the situation, the "outing" of Howe, the firing of White, and the still unknown but probable negligence/incompetence of Steffen.

It is still not adding up. Nonetheless, JV is tossing out quotes about eating his own pan-fried testes, so as to further his arguments with a convincing self-mutilation wager. Not the quality of statement the sponsors are probably looking for at present.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Colm.Murphy said:
Nor do I, not given the handling of the situation, the "outing" of Howe, the firing of White, and the still unknown but probable negligence/incompetence of Steffen.

You raised this earlier, and I agree. It seems like the type of thing that if JV had wanted to get rid of Steffen (for the sake of argument only) than this would've been plenty justification. And if Howe was really trying to suppres all this, how could he have possibly counted on Steffen or JV not picking up on Del Moral's name on the pdf in the first place? :confused: