GC Contenders in 2011

[spalco]

I'm not so good neither at cycling nor English to explain things in terms of doping additionally, relate the effect of doping on the race and try to be objective. I'm just laying out my opinion. My thought is only that rivalry in the Tour is tougher and nodoby will revel in his own superiority as it happened in the Giro. Naturally, you as Contador fan dont like my position.

But again, Contador wasn't too shabby in the Tour either. If he had only raced the Giro in 2011, your argument would have more merit, but we also saw him in the Tour and the impact he made there. Yes, he didn't win, but he wasn't outclassed by that much, despite all the things going against him (un-optimal preparation, weak team, crashes)

 

[Altitude]

Voeckler is closer to being fourth than Scarpony is to being second.

No he isn't.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

oh and comparisons with the Giro are largely pointless unless one thinks that Scarpony is the second best stage racer in the world

Why so? Isn't comparing the forms of the riders in the Giro, Tour and Vuelta this thread's very raison d'être?

So many people crashed out of the Tour that it's hard to say that the top 10 is that much more reflective of the top 10 stage racers in the world than the Giro's. Certainly if I was to put together the top 10 GT racers in my opinion, then a few people in the Giro's top 10 but not the Tour's would have to figure (Nibali, Menchov, maybe even Rodríguez).

The Contador that showed up at the 2011 Giro could have won the 2011 Tour, and fairly comfortably. You can point at the field's weakness all you like, but he stomped the field to an extent not seen since Basso tore everyone apart in 2006. He took time for fun, and had time to have a bit of a play around and dish out stage wins to his friends, and coast home in the final ITT.

If you honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe that Cadel Evans, even in his Tour form, could have beaten that, then you and ACF need to talk more - he's found a soulmate.

 

[roundabout]

Voeckler had already lost 3 minutes at that point so in reality he only gained 1 minute. Scarponi was 4th in the Giro in 2010 too. Evans was 5th and Scarponi outclimbed him massively in the third week...

But whatever, I find some people's short-term memory quite hilarious. 8 months ago Contador was still the most dominant stage racer of this century and now he's no longer rated just because he couldn't pull of the Giro-Tour double while being injured in the latter.

4 minutes is 4 minutes. Not sure in which reality 4 minutes is only 1.

And Scarpony outclimbed evans on 1 singular stage in the 2010 Giro. And even then most of the time gain came from being in a right group.

And yeah, whatever. I am not sure how you can gleam from my posts that Contador is no longer rated but keep on inventing strawmen.

 

[roundabout]

Why so? Isn't comparing the forms of the riders in the Giro, Tour and Vuelta this thread's very raison d'être?

So many people crashed out of the Tour that it's hard to say that the top 10 is that much more reflective of the top 10 stage racers in the world than the Giro's. Certainly if I was to put together the top 10 GT racers in my opinion, then a few people in the Giro's top 10 but not the Tour's would have to figure (Nibali, Menchov, maybe even Rodríguez).

The Contador that showed up at the 2011 Giro could have won the 2011 Tour, and fairly comfortably. You can point at the field's weakness all you like, but he stomped the field to an extent not seen since Basso tore everyone apart in 2006. He took time for fun, and had time to have a bit of a play around and dish out stage wins to his friends, and coast home in the final ITT.

If you honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe that Cadel Evans, even in his Tour form, could have beaten that, then you and ACF need to talk more - he's found a soulmate.

The bolded bit is really stupid. Period. I could even say offensive. If that is all you have gathered from my posts then it's a waste of time discussing anything with you.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

4 minutes is 4 minutes. Not sure in which reality 4 minutes is only 1.

And Scarpony outclimbed evans on 1 singular stage in the 2010 Giro. And even then most of the time gain came from being in a right group.

And yeah, whatever. I am not sure how you can gleam from my posts that Contador is no longer rated but keep on inventing strawmen.

If Evans had it in him to help the Arroyo group, he would have done. Evans there was simply bushed from having fought like a dog through April as well as May and was running out of steam.

Evans is a better rider than Scarponi, but that doesn't make Scarponi a scrub. Evans isn't six-and-a-half-minutes better than Scarponi on a course like the 2011 Giro, and besides Contador had something in reserve anyway.

Evans is great, one of the best racers around, but let's not make out like he's Contador, Cavendish, Gilbert and Valverde all rolled into one.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The bolded bit is really stupid. Period. I could even say offensive. If that is all you have gathered from my posts then it's a waste of time discussing anything with you.

Your point - in a thread about comparing the riders' forms at the three different GTs - was that the Giro was irrelevant in making comparisons. That's so clearly against the entire point of the thread that it makes any comparison that doesn't take the Giro and Vuelta into account invalidated, surely?

 

[airstream]

Yeah just like they didnt let an off form Contador go on Gap.

Oh wait

It took him 3km to drop everyone bar Cadel and Samu and they were next.

.

Oh. Contador was good in the 3rd week, not super, but good. Or you seriously think even off form Contador can drop everyone everytime? Yeah. Believing in it, I think, means being a fan.

 

[roundabout]

The only people doing the talking up in this thread are those who think that whenever Contador doesn't win by minutes and minutes it's because he is below par and that he can show a clean pair of heels to anyone on any climb over 800 meters long and on descents and in time trials regardless of length and difficulty. The Giro was a huge distortion of the actual balance of power. Contador is still likely the best but next year won't be a walkover.

Although I can foresee a myriad of excuses and the continuation of "he was below par" talk when he won't be able to gift stages at will next year.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

And Scarpony outclimbed evans on 1 singular stage in the 2010 Giro.

Wrong. Evans got dropped in the stage Nibali won as well, albeit barely, but he got back on. He was lucky that there was no MTF.

Evans was only the 4th best climber in that stage, too. Behind Basso, Scarponi and Nibali. In that order.

 

[roundabout]

Your point - in a thread about comparing the riders' forms at the three different GTs - was that the Giro was irrelevant in making comparisons. That's so clearly against the entire point of the thread that it makes any comparison that doesn't take the Giro and Vuelta into account invalidated, surely?

So you're ok with inflating the performances of other Giro podium finishers, or what exactly is your point?

Nibali has an excellent chance to prove me wrong in the Tour next year but I suspect he will be in his usual bottom top-10 position.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The only people doing the talking up in this thread are those who think that whenever Contador doesn't win by minutes and minutes it's because he is below par and that he can show a clean pair of heels to anyone on any climb over 800 meters long and on descents and in time trials regardless of length and difficulty. The Giro was a huge distortion of the actual balance of power. Contador is still likely the best but next year won't be a walkover.

Although I can foresee a myriad of excuses and the continuation of "he was below par" talk when he won't be able to gift stages at will next year.

The Giro may have been a distortion, but a Contador in that form would still have won the Tour. Not by six minutes with gas left in the tank, definitely not. But nobody at the Tour was good enough at that race to beat the Giro's Contador. No way. He was freakishly good there, extraterrestrial. It was ridiculous and rather ruined the Giro as a spectacle.

On the other hand, it was better for the spectacle that the Giro Contador didn't show up to the Tour because the Giro was more or less wrapped up by the halfway point, whereas the Tour was still alive until very late (though admittedly it would have been hard for anybody to have sewn such a backloaded Tour up in the first half). The Giro Contador would never have gone on 90km exploratory manoeuvres either, because there would have been absolutely no need to.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So you're ok with inflating the performances of other Giro podium finishers, or what exactly is your point?

Nibali has an excellent chance to prove me wrong in the Tour next year but I suspect he will be in his usual bottom top-10 position.

Did I say at any point that Scarponi or Nibali should have been right up there? No, I don't think I did. I just pointed out that the Giro is NOT irrelevant to this thread when the entire point is comparing the form riders had.

On the evidence available to us in each rider's key race in 2011, Scarponi and Nibali are better GT riders than Voeckler, but worse GT riders than Evans and the Schlecks. You think that's fair?

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Although I can foresee a myriad of excuses and the continuation of "he was below par" talk when he won't be able to gift stages at will next year.

i`ll remember this

 

[airstream]

But again, Contador wasn't too shabby in the Tour either. If he had only raced the Giro in 2011, your argument would have more merit, but we also saw him in the Tour and the impact he made there. Yes, he didn't win, but he wasn't outclassed by that much, despite all the things going against him (un-optimal preparation, weak team, crashes)

Why? Not necessarily. I have no doubt that Contador would have been stronger if he had not ridden the Giro. I find it difficult to estimate how much stronger he would have been. But to say that Contador would have killed Schleck and Evans as easily as Nibali and Scarponi is quite funny.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Why? Not necessarily. I have no doubt that Contador would have been stronger if he had not ridden the Giro. I find it difficult to estimate how much stronger he would have been. But to say that Contador would have killed Schleck and Evans as easily as Nibali and Scarponi is quite funny.

He would still have won ≠ He would still have won as easily as he did at the Giro

 

[The Hitch]

The only people doing the talking up in this thread are those who think that whenever Contador doesn't win by minutes and minutes it's because he is below par and that he can show a clean pair of heels to anyone on any climb over 800 meters long and on descents and in time trials regardless of length and difficulty.

Although you may not like it its true. Contador is by far the strongest GT rider of our generation and when he loses to the likes of Cadel Evans and Andy Schleck by 5 minutes, something is very very wrong.

Life is tough. I know its hard to accept, but it is the truth.

And actually there is talk about for example Gadret vs Rolland or Scarponi vs Voeckler or Cobo vs Nibali etc.

So no, its not all about Contador.

 

[roundabout]

Wrong. Evans got dropped in the stage Nibali won as well, albeit barely, but he got back on. He was lucky that there was no MTF.

Evans was only the 4th best climber in that stage, too. Behind Basso, Scarponi and Nibali. In that order.

I admit to watching that stage with 1 ear so to speak. But ok, in one of the stages where Scarpony was better than Evans Evans was lucky that he wasn't gapped so badly that he couldn't close it on the downhill, I'll give you that.

 

[roundabout]

Did I say at any point that Scarponi or Nibali should have been right up there? No, I don't think I did. I just pointed out that the Giro is NOT irrelevant to this thread when the entire point is comparing the form riders had.

On the evidence available to us in each rider's key race in 2011, Scarponi and Nibali are better GT riders than Voeckler, but worse GT riders than Evans and the Schlecks. You think that's fair?

I don't know. I don't compare apples and pears on forums.

 

[gustienordic]

The Giro may have been a distortion, but a Contador in that form would still have won the Tour. Not by six minutes with gas left in the tank, definitely not. But nobody at the Tour was good enough at that race to beat the Giro's Contador. No way. He was freakishly good there, extraterrestrial. It was ridiculous and rather ruined the Giro as a spectacle.

On the other hand, it was better for the spectacle that the Giro Contador didn't show up to the Tour because the Giro was more or less wrapped up by the halfway point, whereas the Tour was still alive until very late (though admittedly it would have been hard for anybody to have sewn such a backloaded Tour up in the first half). The Giro Contador would never have gone on 90km exploratory manoeuvres either, because there would have been absolutely no need to.

I completely agree with this: Contador was a machine in the Giro, if he would have raced like that in the Tour, he would have won by 3 minutes at least. He was untouchable in the Giro. I have to say his tour performance impressed me quite a bit. It A) made him look more human, and B) showed his quality as a competitor. He never gave up, and attacked until the end.

I do think Contador picked probably the worst year to attempt the Giro-Tour double; both were climbing heavy. If the Giro had not been such a crazy hard course and the Tour had more TT kms, Contador would have had a much better chance. He could not have picked a worse year to attempt the double I think. I think he's capable of it still. I do think he is almost the same caliber as Pantani.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't know. I don't compare apples and pears on forums.

Well, this thread is specifically about comparing apples to pears, hence why that's what we're doing.

 

[woodenswan]

Voeckler beat Samuel Sanchez in the Tour. Voeckler is the better GC rider, case closed

good point

1. Contador
2. Evans
3. Andy
4. Sammy Sanchez

1. Gesink (Oman)

2 who cares

what, no Mollema?

(love the self-irony there)

 

[The Hitch]

I see some real hatred for Scarponi here. The guy has proven 3 years now that on form he is 1 of the best riders in the world. If you dont just want to look at the Giro then see him coming 2nd in Catalunia, beating Basso Evans Levi, Horner, Daniel Martin etc.

See him coming 2nd in Lombardia last year.

See him beat Evans Cunego Basso Gilbert Gesink on 1 of the hills in TA and beat all but Evans overall (Gesinik had a huge head start in ttt).

See him win that race in 09 and come 2nd in 2010 and 3rd

See him win 1 of the best GT stages in the last decade, 1 where Evans got dropped 30k from the end and lost 3 minutes.

We say the likes of JVDB and Gesink are Tour contenders but their palmares in recent years doesnt even compare to what Scarponi has achieved.

Scarponi is a super rider. Better than Frank Schleck, and where did he come in the Tour, oh yeah 3rd.

But when it comes to arguing that Contador is not so good afterall, the record of a rider like Scarponi is just collateral damage. Who cares if we are going to make a mockery of the mans results, so long as its in the grand scheme of saying that Contador faced easy opposition at the Giro.

 

[spalco]

He would still have won ≠ He would still have won as easily as he did at the Giro

I think he would have won fairly easily actually, moreso than in 2010.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think he would have won fairly easily actually, moreso than in 2010.

Even "fairly easily" ≠ as easily as he won in the Giro. He won "fairly easily" (on bike at least) in 2009. I'd have expected there to be more than 39" in it, but not as much as the 6'10" at a canter that he won the Giro.