GC Contenders in 2011

[unsheath]

^^ Hitch pull your head in and get rid of that chip on your shoulder. No need to be so patronizing.

 

[auscyclefan94]

your posts are becoming more and more annoying. how hypocrite...

put me on ignore. I beg you. Anyway, I rarely read any of your posts because they are full of **** and I may eventually get around to officially ignoring you.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

The English speaking media used to look and in some cases still do look more favourably upon Armstrong than Contador because of being Caucasian and an English speaking person.

Are you implying that Contador is not "Caucasian"

 

[The Hitch]

Geez you spew some garbage

^^ Hitch pull your head in and get rid of that chip on your shoulder. No need to be so patronizing.

I really would like to respond to your posts gentlemen, but neither one of you has made clear what you are talking about. What is it about my posts that you disagree with? What specific points. At least then I know what you are talking about?

 

[Zoncolan]

Are you implying that Contador is not "Caucasian"

Priceless

 

[Parrulo]

Are you implying that Contador is not "Caucasian"

indeed that was one of the most stupid things i have ever read on this forum. . .

contador is caucasian his skin is darker then your average northern european guy because he is from the south of europe, contador's skin tone is the normal skin tone in countries like spain, portugal, italy and so on

also implied that the media is . . . well lets say it how it sounds: racist.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I see some real hatred for Scarponi here. The guy has proven 3 years now that on form he is 1 of the best riders in the world. If you dont just want to look at the Giro then see him coming 2nd in Catalunia, beating Basso Evans Levi, Horner, Daniel Martin etc.

See him coming 2nd in Lombardia last year.

See him beat Evans Cunego Basso Gilbert Gesink on 1 of the hills in TA and beat all but Evans overall (Gesinik had a huge head start in ttt).

See him win that race in 09 and come 2nd in 2010 and 3rd

See him win 1 of the best GT stages in the last decade, 1 where Evans got dropped 30k from the end and lost 3 minutes.

We say the likes of JVDB and Gesink are Tour contenders but their palmares in recent years doesnt even compare to what Scarponi has achieved.

Scarponi is a super rider. Better than Frank Schleck, and where did he come in the Tour, oh yeah 3rd.

But when it comes to arguing that Contador is not so good afterall, the record of a rider like Scarponi is just collateral damage. Who cares if we are going to make a mockery of the mans results, so long as its in the grand scheme of saying that Contador faced easy opposition at the Giro.

Thank you, Hitch.

 

[Angliru]

As for nominal strength and advantage over opponents, I agree with your list but in terms of pure strength and the need to overcome the circumstances, I would rate Evans' perfomance ahead of Contador in the Giro mostly because it's le Tour. Even breathing gets harder on the TdF.

So the circumstances of having just done a very mountainous Giro that seriously sapped the strength of his support and himself and then attempting to challenge for the overall in the Tour and finishing 5th aren't considered more challenging than Evans' circumstances?

 

[Tank Engine]

No Voekler? Have to say, Voeckler's performance climbing in the Tour was quite amazing. It was almost purely on guts. I would say

1. Contador
2. Evans
3 Andy
4. Scarponi
5. Froome
6. Nibali
7. Voeckler
8. Sanchez
9. Cobo
10. Frank

I didn't include Wiggins because I think if he would have helped more, Froome would have won the Vuelta. If he had acted as a domestique, they would have had a better chance.

I was wondering whether to put in Wiggins or Voeckler in (as Libertine said ihat's comparing apples and pears).

I put Sammy above Voeckler, since he had lost time to Voeckler due to the crashes, TTT in week 1, but outrode Voeckler in the mountains (just) and TT.

As for putting Sanchez above Frank. Thinking about it again, it I'm cool with that (for more or less the same reasons as above)

 

[airstream]

Yeah just like they didnt let an off form Contador go on Gap.

We saw an off form Contador in the Crit&#233]It took him 3km to drop everyone bar Cadel and Samu and they were next.
On a gentle gradient with lots of wind Contador totally cracked the climbers like Scarponi Nibali Anton Purito, that beat Cadel and Frank in last years gts.[/quote]
Are you kidding? He dropped a superclimber for short steep hills Purito and Anton, who went not for the GC. And you consider it's a guarantee that Contador would have dropped the Schlecks and Evans the same way?? Scarponi and Nibali are good climbers, but being the TdF level climber is a bit different thing. lol. Rodriguez beat sick Evans in the TdF and Frank who didn't recover after a broken collarbone in the Vuelta. It's a brilliant argument.

Thats the way it is. "Objected" has got nothing to do with it.

Ok, thanks. From now I'm proud that CN forum authority the Hitch helped me so much.

So the circumstances of having just done a very mountainous Giro that seriously sapped the strength of his support and himself and then attempting to challenge for the overall in the Tour and finishing 5th aren't considered more challenging than Evans' circumstances?

I agree, of course. But I initially specified that rate Contador exactly as for the Giro, because find it difficult to assess the effect of the Giro on his performance in the Tour, without counting the stage to Galibier. I appreciate the result higher than the circumstances therefore 1st in le Tour>1st in the Giro+5th in le Tour. Riders don't matter.

 

[roundabout]

^^ Hitch pull your head in and get rid of that chip on your shoulder. No need to be so patronizing.

Putting him on ignore is easier.

Sadly the man has become unreadable since stage 1 of the Tour and his stay in Spain.

And I call bull**** on Hitch preferring unbiased coverage. It's simply impossible considering all his *****ing about his #2 crush losing time when everything was within the rules.

So yeah, ignore is the only option instead of reading spin interspersed with blatant lies.

 

[El Pistolero]

indeed that was one of the most stupid things i have ever read on this forum. . .

contador is caucasian his skin is darker then your average northern european guy because he is from the south of europe, contador's skin tone is the normal skin tone in countries like spain, portugal, italy and so on

also implied that the media is . . . well lets say it how it sounds: racist.

I'd say that Spain has a fair amount of racial mixes over the past 2000 years. You have a relatively big amount of Spaniards who have blond hair and blue eyes for example(or traces of blond in their hair). It wouldn't surprise me if Contador(and many more Spaniards) had some North African heritage or even Arabic.

 

[Francois the Postman]

OK folk, please keep it to the topic(s) only, that has been enough snapping at each other's heels.

 

[sublimit]

I was going to post my top 5 but I'm an Anglo and that means I know **** all so I wont.

Thread of the year this to be fair though, I love all the arguments and falling outs. I didn't realize people cared so much.

 

[woodenswan]

Thread of the year this to be fair though, I love all the arguments and falling outs. I didn't realize people cared so much.

+1
withdrawal symptoms perhaps?
it is most certainly entertaining though

 

[scullster46]

I don't want to get into all of the arguing about nonsense, so i'll just stick to the topic.

How strong one is really doesn't mean anything if their is no course on which to test it, so I'm gonna do a top 10 for each GT, assuming that all riders come into it fresh and on peak form. If anyone objects to this list I'll gladly hear them out. My reasoning for having Wiggins higher than Froome/Cobo, is that I felt that they were more of a flash in the pan, especially with Froome's TT. I just feel like I can't trust Froome to put on a TT like that every time, while I could trust Wiggins to put on a slightly better TT than he did.

Giro

1 Contador
2 A. Schleck
3 Samu
4 Evans
5 Cobo
6 Scarponi
7 F. Schleck
8 Nibali
9 Froome
10 Gadret

Tour

1 Contador
2 Evans
3 Wiggins
4 A. Schleck
5 Samu
6 Scarponi
7 Nibali
8 Froome
9 Cobo
10 F. Schleck

Vuelta

1 Contador
2 Evans (Closest anyone would get to Contador)
3 A. Schleck
4 Wiggins
5 Samu
6 Nibali
7 Scarponi
8 Cobo
9 Froome
10 Mollema

 

[Havetts]

*ZIP*

Hahaha runner up for best post of the year .

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You will never get unbiased coverage. And the Anglophone coverage has been an Evans love-in for a long time. Nobody (except fools) would deny that Evans is one of the best cyclists on the planet, but sometimes the capabilities ascribed to him are optimistic, and almost setting him up to fail since he would have to be nigh on superhuman to achieve some of the things claimed as possible (the 2010 Giro-Tour double after his season starting with competing for the win Down Under and putting in 20 race days pre-Giro including going all out for the Ardennes, for example).

With regards to the 2011 Tour, as I've said before, Evans did of course need a bit of luck to win it. But point me to a recent winner that hasn't needed a bit of luck? Contador in 2010 got the chaingate mess and Fränk crashing out (though of course that may have hurt him by meaning Andy couldn't stop and wait for Fränk every time he attacked). In 2009 you had the soft route, the long TTT eliminating contenders, key figures like Menchov, Sastre and Evans underperforming. In 2008 you had the CSC triple team and Astana being forbidden from entering. In 2007 you had Rasmussen's expulsion and let's not even get started on Óscar Pereiro.

What Evans did brilliantly was make sure that if there was going to be fortune, he made damn sure HE was the one that profited from it. There was no longer the "wait for the race to develop" technique that cost him in '07 and '08; instead he fought for the small seconds and limited his losses where he could, profited from others' bad fortune and tore it in the ITT. I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted to chance it on the ITT, in case he had a mechanical, a fall, or Schleck just had a good day like Sastre did in 2008. But he had to fight hard to make sure he was still in contention at that point, and he deserved the win.

He didn't smoke the field like Contador at the Giro. But he didn't have to. He had to make sure he didn't let Andy Schleck gain too much in the mountains. And he did that. Andy didn't help his own cause at times (Plateau de Beille...), so we may never know how strong Andy or Cadel were in the Pyrenées.

I don't see anybody in the current péloton who could have beaten the Contador that showed up to the Giro. It was insane, and to be honest it was boring for much of the time. That doesn't mean I'm criticising Evans, doesn't mean I hate Evans, doesn't mean that he didn't deserve to win the Tour de France, because he was the best rider there over three weeks (well, over the one week that actually mattered, but he was the best rider of the GC contenders in the irrelevant first two anyway). It just means that I think that Contador's performances at the Giro were superior in terms of physical achievement than Evans' performances at the Tour.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

With regards to the 2011 Tour, as I've said before, Evans did of course need a bit of luck to win it. But point me to a recent winner that hasn't needed a bit of luck? Contador in 2010 got the chaingate mess and Fränk crashing out (though of course that may have hurt him by meaning Andy couldn't stop and wait for Fränk every time he attacked).

Contador in 2010 for starters.

Andy was only in yellow to begin with because of bad luck on Contador's part in the cobbles stage. As far as individual performances are concerned, Andy Schleck only put 10 seconds into Contador.. 10 seconds. While Contador put more than 80 seconds into Schleck, when disregarding the chaingate stage. More than 70 seconds of which in time trials. So I don't see how he needed a bit of luck. And yes, I believe Frank Schleck only hurts Andy's chances.

2009, obviously.

Contador had an advantage, along with Armstrong, but are you saying he "needed" a bit of luck? How so? He would have smoked them all regardless if Menchov and Evans had brought their A-game, or if there was a TTT or not.

2006. Landis deserved that win. Period. He didn't need "a bit of luck" , he had the worst "luck" of all. Yes... IMO. Let's agree to disagree on this one.

I don't know if Pereiro was lucky, disregarding the prize money. He can't seriously think he "won" that Tour?

Armstrong in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005 - no luck needed relative to other riders. Far and away the best.

Armstong in 1999 and 2003 possibly also. My memory is a little rusty.

 

[The Hitch]

2009, obviously.

Contador had an advantage, along with Armstrong, but are you saying he "needed" a bit of luck? How so? He would have smoked them all regardless if Menchov and Evans had brought their A-game, or if there was a TTT or not.

No, Evans would have won. Proved this year.

Case closed.

 

[airstream]

Well, any favourable circumstance can be regarded as piece of luck but it does not negate the fact riders deserved to win. I'd say Contador got lucky when Armstrong couldn't take over maillot jaune after TTT. Perhaps it changed nothing, but it could have changed, I think.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Is this the feisty muck throwing thread?
I see a lot of elitist Tour v skimpy Giro bollo being used to rank the 2011 (or is it now 2009) contenders.

I'm happy to go with our old friend and general bible, CQ:
1) Bert "Caucasian" Contador. 790
2) Cadel Evans: 600
3) Vince Nibali 510
4) Juan Jo Cobo: 500
5) Andy Schleck: 460
6) Frank Schleck: 380
7) M Scarponi: 375
7) C Froome: 375
9) T Voeckler 320
10) B Wiggins: 315
11) J Rodriguez 313

Although, personally, I rate those riders who completed 2 GTs as being better than the one hit wonders, simply for their consistency and contribution to the non-Tour startlists.

 

[Parrulo]

Well, any favourable circumstance can be regarded as piece of luck but it does not negate the fact riders deserved to win. I'd say Contador got lucky when Armstrong couldn't take over maillot jaune after TTT. Perhaps it changed nothing, but it could have changed, I think.

armstrong having the yellow jersey wouldn't make any difference. contador would most certainly attack him anyway and even if he didn't andy was strong enough to drop armstrong and contador could follow andy and then use the "armstrong had already been dropped" excuse to attack andy. the 2009 tour was only going to have 1 winner, doesn't matter how you make it.

 

[airstream]

armstrong having the yellow jersey wouldn't make any difference. contador would most certainly attack him anyway and even if he didn't andy was strong enough to drop armstrong and contador could follow andy and then use the "armstrong had already been dropped" excuse to attack andy. the 2009 tour was only going to have 1 winner, doesn't matter how you make it.

Undoubtedly. But in terms of Bruyneel's formation a disobeying team hierarchy is a really dangerous game. It could have been great fun to see how the living legend in MJ would be attacked by his own teammate.

 

[Parrulo]

Undoubtedly. But in terms of Bruyneel's formation a disobeying team hierarchy is a really dangerous game. It could have been great fun to see how the living legend in MJ would be attacked by his own teammate.

what living legend are you talking about? certainly can't be armstrong since you dislike contador for reasons that would make you hate armstrong. i wasn't aware that hinault was racing the 2009 tour for astana. . . or was it merckx?

contador would have done exactly what any man in this world would do and attack to get himself the win and any1 saying that if that situation happened(which in case you don't remember didn't, so this is a bunch of what if's) would help armstrong instead is lying to himself