Gee I think it's awful that a DOPER won LBL

[Dr. Maserati]

“Today was a dream fulfilled. My dream now is to start the Tour and win the Tour with Alberto, to be on the Champs-Elysees with him,” he said. “After the Giro. I will rest as much as possible. It’s an objective to win the Tour with Alberto. I am working hard for that. He’s young and he deserves our support. It’s different to win a classic to win a three-week tour. Alberto is the captain now.”

i think after today even the biggest skeptics should believe vino is candid and appreciative of what berto did for him today.

One point I will highlight from today.

Vino got booed or jeered by sections of the crowd. Now the ASO is all about the public sentiment and were there today as they run LBL.

Could it be possible that in winning today that this could actually exclude Vino from riding the Tour?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I still wonder what are his plans towards Giro, will he ride to achieve high placing in overall GC?

On ESP last week he said he wants to get the Maglia Rosa (for one day at least). I wish him well... He served his ban, others didn´t

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Could it be possible that in winning today that this could actually exclude Vino from riding the Tour?

Yeah, the ASO does a Rasmussen-Trick on him.

God if i´d be him (or Ulle, or Ricco, or rasmussen), i´d make a big press conference and book to spit back ...

 

[hfer07]

@johanbruyneel@LanceArmstrong
We ain't taking no sh!t from you no more!!!!

 

[trompe le monde]

Maybe it is a case that the peloton is "cleaner" than it was a few years ago.

I don't know that as a fact obviously, but hopefully that is not being dismissed altogether. I am surprised your boy Gilbert can compete with the 9 other dopers in the top ten, as summarized by HJ.

It's interesting that even when riders pay their penalties with suspensions, when they come back they are still villified. I think only lifetime bans would satisfy most in here, that way the pesky notion of redemption would not have to be considered.

I personally think lifetime bans result in more vigorous and innane defense, like the FL fiasco. You have the one-offers like Kohl who was tired of the shyt, I do admit that.

I think present ban lengths are ok, but would like to give the riders a chance of a reduction if they would bust open the omerta. Until there is incentive to bring down omerta, it will not happen. A lifetime ban, with no weight on admission and uncovering the "system", is not much of an incentive.

I agree that lifetime bans are futile, but I don't think a mere reduction in sentence is enough to bust open the omerta.

One of the problems is that once the reduced sentence is served, how many will take the squealing rider back with open arms? I'm not sure on specifics, but I think Kohl may have retired not because he wanted to, but rather because the pragmatics of the situation forced him to - doubt any team would take him after being so open on how to flout UCI's drug controls.

Another problem is that you essentially have a Prisoner's Dilemma situation in sports. Some wired article on doping in sports outlines the notion rather generally, but in sports the conditions are as such that one has to work on minimizing the advantages of others, and the easiest way to do that is to dope. Of course if all athletes trusted each other to be clean then the incentive to dope would be nil, but that's not going to happen where the nature of competition itself dislikes the notion of trust.

Maybe one way to instil a sense of trust amongst peers, which would reduce the systematic nature of doping, is to reduce the gap between the highest paid and lowest paid cyclist, thereby making the nature of the race itself more for the honour of victory rather than trying to build up a CV of palmares to justify that 7 figure contract a cyclist would like, but then again that might be an imperfect solution in a time where it is hard to find sponsors.

 

[luckyboy]

God if i´d be him (or Ulle, or Ricco, or rasmussen), i´d make a big press conference and book to spit back ...

Who are they spitting back against?!

 

[JPM London]

Let's get back to the real topic here: Dolph...
didn't he actually say "I must break you" and not will as noted?

This is far more important than all that other stuff...

 

[ergmonkey]

Could it be possible that in winning today that this could actually exclude Vino from riding the Tour?

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if ASO try to keep Vino out of the Tour, but they might find--much to their chagrin--that they're unable to do so as long as Astana are in the race. I'm thinking back to last year when ASO tried to force Boonen out and CAS flatly refused to allow such a restriction. But, the rules are pretty muddled in this area, so who knows?

Personally, I'm very much against the race organizers trying to pick and choose who can race. It's especially unfair to sponsors of Pro Tour teams (or those teams party to the Tour invite "agreement") who invest heavily at the start of the season in reliance upon guaranteed race invites and the presence of star riders who've been cleared to race. I understand the interest of the organizers in protecting the image/marketability of their own races, but I hope ASO and others continue to fail in these attempted extra-judicial bans. Otherwise, you just end up with the sort of protectionism that sees some riders remain above the law (I don't know who the French equivalent of Valverde would be, but you get the idea) while others are effectively gone forever (what chance do Floyd Landis and Michael Rasmussen seem to have of riding another Tour even four years after the start of their bans?).

 

[python]

One point I will highlight from today.

Vino got booed or jeered by sections of the crowd. Now the ASO is all about the public sentiment and were there today as they run LBL.

Could it be possible that in winning today that this could actually exclude Vino from riding the Tour?

we know that aso could be finicky and capricious.

we also know that vino has many fans worldwide including in france and that's great for business.

since their initial positive hints towards vino, there were no negative waves neither from aso nor rcs.

im guessing, vino's return to astana was quietly approved but the uci and aso politicians for 'something' in return.

that 'something' could be anything - from a 'donation' to structural and managerial changes to kash's block-out.

we know that 'new' aso is not the same as 3 years ago.

 

[podilato]

The whole argument about length of bans, I think, misses the point. Until bans apply to EVERYONE, such as D.Sportifs and doctors then we will only catch the little fish which is probably the point.

 

[Cerberus]

EDUCATION !!!

Simply show the kids all the studies of how Doping does not work (it´s mostly placebo + all the "medicine" taken at the same time are with side-effects, thus tiring and therefore counterproductive)....

Would you mind showing us a link to those studies? Specifically for blood boosting preferably. The evidence that Blood Boosting does work is compelling. For example I have a great deal of trouble believing that Bjarne Riis' jump from number 107 to number 5 (and eventually number 1) in the Tour, right when he by his own admission started using EPO, was in fact fuelled exclusively by the power of positive thinking. Plus of cause there is the scientific studies like the one mentioned here that shows large gains from EPO.

 

[petethedrummer]

Let's get back to the real topic here: Dolph...
didn't he actually say "I must break you" and not will as noted?

This is far more important than all that other stuff...

Here's the man himself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygQvB6OjHOU

 

[ergmonkey]

The whole argument about length of bans, I think, misses the point. Until bans apply to EVERYONE, such as D.Sportifs and doctors then we will only catch the little fish which is probably the point.

Excellent point. But, nevertheless, I think your point actually does relate to the length of bans discussion. The fact that "systemic" doping involves so much more than just riders is, in my view, a compelling reason why lifetime bans are inapprioriate when, as you point out, many other parties who contribute to the doping of riders go largely ignored or unpunished. It makes little sense to ban riders for life under a "tough on doping" party line when many "enablers" remain to ensure that subsequent riders will be given access to and encouraged to use illegal PEDs. Any deterrent effect of lifetime bans is likely offset by such DS's and doctors, such that a handful of talented riders are thrown out forever while the system likely doesn't change too much.

 

[FKLance]

Philippe Gilbert

Was anyone else surprised by Gilbert in the race? he dropped Evans and Valverde in the final kilometers. They chased him back but he still got fourth. Seeing him attack and Valverde looking down and suffering.. I thought come on!! Yeah he's on-form, good climber and they chased him back but dropping Valverde like a stone?

 

[Polish]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/04/news/vinokourov-‘my-victory-was-clean’_113088

Vino says he's clean!

Yikes, why is Vino so DEFENSIVE about training in Tenerife?

"so I train alone and sometimes get advice from our team trainer,” he said. “I prepared before this race at Tenerife, but that’s only because it’s good weather and the mountains are high. There were other riders there, too."

And who ARE these "other riders"?

If Vino goes down again, he is going to NAME NAMES lol.

That is why he will not get busted again

 

[Parrot23]

However, I do think it's kind of funny (read: sad) that a guy can get busted for blood doping and then come right back and dope some more (and win). I mean lets be real: Vino is obviously doped up. He was on dope before, busted for it, and now he's as strong if not stronger than he was before. Therefore he's still on dope. Very simple. At that level you don't get better clean than you were on dope, especially after a suspension.

+1. That's the operative point. Evidently lots of fans can't handle a simple syllogism. Joe Papp's celebration of Vino is something to behold. Those who cheated continue to hanker for the old ways. It's a character thing, the attitude of: "F. the system"--just don't get caught--"Vino4Ever", etc.

What amazes me is how the sport corrupts the "integrity" (intelligence and commitment to the truth) of fans as well, not just that of past and present dopers.

At least the journalists are asking questions.

NB: it's still the autologous stuff (not really dope). Well, Vino was homologous the last time, LOL.

 

[luckyboy]

Was anyone else surprised by Gilbert in the race? he dropped Evans and Valverde in the final kilometers. They chased him back but he still got fourth. Seeing him attack and Valverde looking down and suffering.. I thought come on!! Yeah he's on-form, good climber and they chased him back but dropping Valverde like a stone?

Piti's not known for rapid uphill accelerations (see Vuelta 09, among others). He's good at sprinting to the line (see today, among others). He and Evans are more steady climbers who work their way back to groups. Gilbert, obviously, is not - he launched a stinging attack to try and stay away, but those two worked their way back.

Also, did you not see him attack in Amstel Gold?

 

[exespoir]

Yay for Vino!.....for now(the best that could be said of any pro rider who wins)

 

[High Cotton]

I have to say I think Gilbert is clean. At least I hope he is. Certainly the rest of the top 10 aren't (not sure about Kolobnev).

Hahahaha.

"They're all dirty except for the guy I like."

Wow.

Funny stuff in this thread..

 

[pmcg76]

+1. That's the operative point. Evidently lots of fans can't handle a simple syllogism. Joe Papp's celebration of Vino is something to behold. Those who cheated continue to hanker for the old ways. It's a character thing, the attitude of: "F. the system"--just don't get caught--"Vino4Ever", etc.

What amazes me is how the sport corrupts the "integrity" (intelligence and commitment to the truth) of fans as well, not just that of past and present dopers.

At least the journalists are asking questions.

NB: it's still the autologous stuff (not really dope). Well, Vino was homologous the last time, LOL.

To me, that sentence there is just plain wrong, when I saw the result today, I had a wry smile because I would have preferred somebody else to win and I knew how much people would get into a twist about it.

I dont get this attitude of only those who are caught are dirty dopers, I have long accepted cycling as it is. I had been following cycling for 10 years when Festina happened, I then believed the sport was getting better but what happened? scandal after scandal, each time my belief got battered a bit more. There is only so many times you can put your faith in riders/teams.

I would prefer to see the clean guys win but I have no idea who they might be. I like to believe in a few poeple or teams, for example I would agree with whoever suggested Voeckler was probably the real winner today, still I have no complete faith in anybody.

Yes Vino was caught and unrepentant but I dont make him Ricco/Sella or whoever out to be a lot worse than others who have dodged the bullet or acted as repentant. It is sad that after 3 of the great Classics that we have had these threads but thats unfortunately Pro Cycling.

Parrot or others in a huff, simple question: Who would you consider the real winner today and why do you believe they are clean?

 

[luckyboy]

Hahahaha.

"They're all dirty except for the guy I like."

Wow.

Funny stuff in this thread..

Ever thought that I only like riders who I think might be clean? Well, Menchov & Euskaltel excluded.

Great stuff.

Also, there is evidence that most of the top 10 of this race have doped. Even if it's hearsay/association (Evans, Anton).

 

[BroDeal]

The CN article about Vino makes a point that he was recently training on Tenerife where Ferrari and Fuentes are known to work. I don't recall CN ever making that point in an article about Armstrong training on the island.

The relevant quote:

"More doping questions followed about why Vinokourov had recently been training in Tenerife, where disgraced sports doctors Eufemiano Fuentes and Michele Ferrari are alleged to work."

Now on to the Giro. Looks like Evans will be outclassed once again.

 

[High Cotton]

Ever thought that I only like riders who I think might be clean? Well, Menchov & Euskaltel excluded.

Great stuff.

Also, there is evidence that most of the top 10 of this race have doped. Even if it's hearsay/association (Evans, Anton).

Whooooosh.

You couldn't have missed the point more thoroughly.

In any case, what evidence, hearsay or association do you have that Vino is dirty now?

 

[luckyboy]

Must've missed the point, but then again, if it was that subtle then I'm probably not missing much.


Well, he came back and is performing at the same level as he was when he was charging someone else's blood. He has just won a race against Basso, Ricco and Scarponi.

Oh, and see BroDeal's post above. Tenerife seems a bit of a way to travel just for training doesn't it?


Edit: Anyway - Gilbert, among others, is a rider who specifically targets these races. A few one day races in April, then there is literally nothing until Lombardia and Paris-Tours. Sure he'll ride the Tour and/or Vuelta, but look the guys he's up against. Vino, AC, the Schlecks, Piti, Horner, Anton, Evans - they're all going to ride GT's to be right up there (Ok, Horner will be a domestique, plus Vino & Evans riding two GT's). What I'm saying is that a clean rider, training specifically for this 3/4 week period, can finish high up in these one day races. Then go off to the Tour and finish 2/3 hours down like he always does.

 

[la.margna]

Great win! Vino has always been a big fighter, respect!

And in contrast to Valv.Piti, AC, Pharmstrong and many others he served his punishment and was banned for two years.

If those losers hadn't messed up their blood bags...

And no, nobody is clean, a clean rider does not even get a contract, they're all full, so playfield is leveled. Sad and wish it would be different, but unfortunately that's reality. They are ALL FULL. But this doesn't change the fascination for this great sport!

Vive le cyclisme!