Geert Leinders

[Parker]

Similarly Slot probably told Walsh about Motoman (or Walsh read about it).
Walsh of course hasn't gone to verify the story. Who knows Motoman might have a story to tell. But Walsh aint looking for any stories.

Anyway, main point: no signs whatsoever of Walsh trying to double check any of the accounts Sky are handing him, nor any signs of him double checking possible weak links as he so famously did with Lance.

You do realise that not everything that a journalist asks and finds out reaches the paper, don't you? They only has a certain amount of column inches. Filling them with non-stories and wild goose chases isn't the best use of them.

 

[Benotti69]

You do realise that not everything that a journalist asks and finds out reaches the paper, don't you? They only has a certain amount of column inches. Filling them with non-stories and wild goose chases isn't the best use of them.

Are you a journalist? Do you know how much chasing is done to get a story?

Talking to motoman a non story?

 

[gooner]

Similarly Slot probably told Walsh about Motoman (or Walsh read about it).
Walsh of course hasn't gone to verify the story. Who knows Motoman might have a story to tell. But Walsh aint looking for any stories.

Anyway, main point: no signs whatsoever of Walsh trying to double check any of the accounts Sky are handing him, nor any signs of him double checking possible weak links as he so famously did with Lance.

What story will motoman have to tell? He has denied it's even him when asked about by other news outlets.

 

[thehog]

What story will motoman have to tell? He has denied it's even him when asked about by other news outlets.

The way someone denies generally tells the story.

Bloody good copy as well.

 

[gooner]

The way someone denies generally tells the story.

Bloody good copy as well.

It's already been done.

http://www.cyclismactu.net/news-int...uo-je-ne-suis-pas-le-motoman-raquo-28243.html

 

[Benotti69]

In SDS, Walsh said he got told about Swart from another New Zealand journalist. Walsh just didn't turn up and interview him out of nowhere like you want him to do now with the doctor at Barloworld.

Walsh got handed, Betsy, Emma and Swart. He didn't have to dig for all 3. He did some digging about Ferrari to find out the hotels Armstrong was staying in near Ferrari's town.

The doctor for Barloworld now works for a Colombian team. I would have expected Walsh, who chased after Armstrong for 15 years, to try and arrange someone to get hold of Froome's values from the doctor.

But it appears Walsh has been placated about Sky by people he believes are telling him the truth and he does not want to dig further. I think he doesn't want to lose his job at ST at his age. I could be wrong. I like his work, i like his writing style, but i think he is wrong on Sky and it will be a big black mark in his career if it gets out about Sky riders doping. He will look like a Murdoch shill.

 

[sniper]

You do realise that not everything that a journalist asks and finds out reaches the paper, don't you? They only has a certain amount of column inches. Filling them with non-stories and wild goose chases isn't the best use of them.

then Walsh should perhaps not write articles of the type "why i believe in froome" but admit that he hasn't double checked anything or talked to any sky-independent sources and therefore is in no position to make any objective call on froome.

 

[thehog]

Walsh got handed, Betsy, Emma and Swart. He didn't have to dig for all 3. He did some digging about Ferrari to find out the hotels Armstrong was staying in near Ferrari's town.

The doctor for Barloworld now works for a Colombian team. I would have expected Walsh, who chased after Armstrong for 15 years, to try and arrange someone to get hold of Froome's values from the doctor.

But it appears Walsh has been placated about Sky by people he believes are telling him the truth and he does not want to dig further. I think he doesn't want to lose his job at ST at his age. I could be wrong. I like his work, i like his writing style, but i think he is wrong on Sky and it will be a big black mark in his career if it gets out about Sky riders doping. He will look like a Murdoch shill.

This has been my conclusion. He's not the hard hitting journalist some give him credit for. He's no Kimmidge.

Paul went 1 to 1 with Armstrong at the ToC at the height of his comeback and didn't back down.

Walsh was more a sulker. Didn't take a rocket scientist to pick Armstrong was doping in 1999. It was only that Leblanc entered the press room after Siestrie and pleaded that no writes of doping - to save the Tour.

Most there that day were protecting not only their jobs and the only bullsh1t existence they had. This was pre-internet boom mind you. Most typewriter hacks were earning 45k at a cycle mag or page 57 in a local paper. At the time you didn't get rich off doping stories.

David could fall back on golf and rugby. The others not.

If you were in the press gang you were going to be cut lose.

 

[Parker]

Are you a journalist? Do you know how much chasing is done to get a story?

Talking to motoman a non story?

I'm not a journalist. My cousin is a fairly senior journalist for a famous paper though.

Talking to motoman? Slot and Whittle did that for The Times. Or at least they tried. No point doing it twice.

 

[Parker]

This has been my conclusion. He's not the hard hitting journalist some give him credit for. He's no Kimmidge.

And what did Kimmage find out during the Tour, other than the price of wine at his campsite. Did he interview Rasmussen or Dekker or Motoman?

At least Walsh had a story to write. Kimmage wrote about a bloke who once met Anquetil's daughter, Sean Kelly in the 80s and two articles rehashing the stories everyone else wrote the year before.

 

[Netserk]

Whilst it's fair to discuss Walsh and what he has (and what he hasn't) written about Lienders, there is another thread for those of you who wants to discuss more general things about Walsh.

Let's keep the focus in this thread on Lienders, at least indirectly.

 

[thehog]

And what did Kimmage find out during the Tour, other than the price of wine at his campsite. Did he interview Rasmussen or Dekker or Motoman?

Wait for the movie. Better than David's pom pom pieces.

Paul is 10 x the man Walsh is.

He never sold out

 

[sniper]

And what did Kimmage find out during the Tour, other than the price of wine at his campsite. Did he interview Rasmussen or Dekker or Motoman?

no, which is why he wisely withholds judgement wrt froome.

 

[Benotti69]

I'm not a journalist. My cousin is a fairly senior journalist for a famous paper though.

Talking to motoman? Slot and Whittle did that for The Times. Or at least they tried. No point doing it twice.

I wonder why they did it and not Walsh? So after asking what was the point someone was sent.

 

[Benotti69]

thanks Netserk i was just about to edit mine after reading your post.

I still feel Leinders is a key part of Sky's success and Froome's rise from the back of motorbikes to podiums and TdF win.

 

[red_flanders]

The team is owned by the sponsors - not Brailsford. Policies like this come from them. Otherwise why would Brailsford be happy to have Millar ride for GB but not for Sky?

He takes responsibility himself because good leaders do. It puts a line under the matter rather than pointing figures and apportioning blame.

As I noted in the post you quoted, yes, I think he may be taking the blame for something he may or may not have been directly involved in. No criticism from me on that.

Regarding where the policies come from, are you suggesting Brailsford is not intimately involved with setting team policy? That would surprise me. Can you show me how you know that, or are you just suggesting it may be the case?

I have had a clear impression from Brailsford that he is the one in charge and it would be very surprising to me that he was not involved or directly responsible for setting team policy. He's getting paid to run the team and his position as "principal" and his public statements over time give the clear impression of a man at the helm.

 

[thehog]

thanks Netserk i was just about to edit mine after reading your post.

I still feel Leinders is a key part of Sky's success and Froome's rise from the back of motorbikes to podiums and TdF win.

Motorbikes to podiums.

I think you just chose the title to the book of Sky's doping in about 4 years time!

 

[martinvickers]

As I noted in the post you quoted, yes, I think he may be taking the blame for something he may or may not have been directly involved in. No criticism from me on that.

Regarding where the policies come from, are you suggesting Brailsford is not intimately involved with setting team policy? That would surprise me. Can you show me how you know that, or are you just suggesting it may be the case?

I have had a clear impression from Brailsford that he is the one in charge and it would be very surprising to me that he was not involved or directly responsible for setting team policy. He's getting paid to run the team and his position as "principal" and his public statements over time give the clear impression of a man at the helm.

That's the difference, generally speaking, between a Board of Directors, and a CEO. The former, often not specialists, set the policy. The CEO executes it, and usually carries the can, rightly, for the f*** ups.

Leaving aside Brailsford and Team Sky themselves, on a much more general note, it's perfectly possible to have a strong, transparant, rigourous anti-doping policy while not black-balling all past offenders, especially in a sport as compromised as cycling was - A 'Garminish' system for want of a better turn of phrase.

But one can see the appeal to sponsor/owners of the appearance of "whiter than white", even when it's a) difficult to achieve in practice unless you bring your own squad of 14 yos and b) apt to blow up in your CEO's face.

One must remember, going back to Sky, that the BOA also had a completely 'zero tolerance' attitude - including past 'spent' misdemeanors - until CAS forced them to drop it. It was a very popular attitude with the public. There is an appetite for that puritanical style in the GB public, and Sky's original declarations in that direction may have provoked quizzical looks among the initiated. Among the great GB public, it would have been roundly applauded.

 

[gooner]

This has been my conclusion. He's not the hard hitting journalist some give him credit for. He's no Kimmidge.

Paul went 1 to 1 with Armstrong at the ToC at the height of his comeback and didn't back down.

Walsh was more a sulker. Didn't take a rocket scientist to pick Armstrong was doping in 1999. It was only that Leblanc entered the press room after Siestrie and pleaded that no writes of doping - to save the Tour.

Most there that day were protecting not only their jobs and the only bullsh1t existence they had. This was pre-internet boom mind you. Most typewriter hacks were earning 45k at a cycle mag or page 57 in a local paper. At the time you didn't get rich off doping stories.

David could fall back on golf and rugby. The others not.

If you were in the press gang you were going to be cut lose.

Kimmage had very little dealing with Armstrong outside of the Cali press conference. Some try to play up Kimmage's role in exposing Lance but in reality he had little to do with it. He has been outspoken on it down the years but in regards to doing the digging and getting the backbone to the story, it is Walsh who takes the credit. Kimmage is great at writing columns giving his take on doping and holding people to account in press conferences and interviews. I just don't think the investigative journalism part is his strong point in the same manner as Walsh.

 

[martinvickers]

And what did Kimmage find out during the Tour, other than the price of wine at his campsite. Did he interview Rasmussen or Dekker or Motoman?

At least Walsh had a story to write. Kimmage wrote about a bloke who once met Anquetil's daughter, Sean Kelly in the 80s and two articles rehashing the stories everyone else wrote the year before.

That's a bit harsh!

It seemed to me that Kimmage was being pulled in a few too many directions.

After throwing the grenade at Boasson Hagan at the pre race PC, I admit I found it hard to process him going to Alpe D'Huez the day of the Ventoux. An odd way to do investigations, but maybe useful for the Rough Rider film.

Kimmo is essentially at his best as an interviewer and feature writer, not a sleuth. His '13 Tour writing was highly readable. Always is. But not sure he, or Walsh for that matter, gave much more light than heat.

 

[Benotti69]

Sky claimed to have a zero toelerance policy but they hired Mick Barry for their 1st year and claimed they took him on face value. Come on who believes that?

 

[martinvickers]

Sky claimed to have a zero toelerance policy but they hired Mick Barry for their 1st year and claimed they took him on face value. Come on who believes that?

Well, presumably you don't, which is more than fair enough. I don't know about the rest of humanity ;-)

when was Barry hired, as a matter of curiosity,2009?

 

[Parker]

Regarding where the policies come from, are you suggesting Brailsford is not intimately involved with setting team policy? That would surprise me. Can you show me how you know that, or are you just suggesting it may be the case?

I have had a clear impression from Brailsford that he is the one in charge and it would be very surprising to me that he was not involved or directly responsible for setting team policy. He's getting paid to run the team and his position as "principal" and his public statements over time give the clear impression of a man at the helm.

Every CEO ultimately answers to the shareholders and investors. Do you really think Sky's $50m investment doesn't give them a say in things are wrong.

I don't know who sets policy but I do know that David Millar had agreed with Brailsford that he would join Sky at their inception, but was then blocked by the introduction of the policy. However, he was selected for GB every year until 2013. Brailsford is the Principal for both, yet the policies are different. It strongly suggests someone higher is writing the rules at Sky

 

[Parker]

After throwing the grenade at Boasson Hagan at the pre race PC, I admit I found it hard to process him going to Alpe D'Huez the day of the Ventoux. An odd way to do investigations, but maybe useful for the Rough Rider film.

It's also useful for doing a piece to camera about how useless press conferences are as an excuse not to turn up to them and disrupt the paid camping holiday with the wife.

 

[Benotti69]

That's a bit harsh!

It seemed to me that Kimmage was being pulled in a few too many directions.

After throwing the grenade at Boasson Hagan at the pre race PC, I admit I found it hard to process him going to Alpe D'Huez the day of the Ventoux. An odd way to do investigations, but maybe useful for the Rough Rider film.

Kimmo is essentially at his best as an interviewer and feature writer, not a sleuth. His '13 Tour writing was highly readable. Always is. But not sure he, or Walsh for that matter, gave much more light than heat.

Kimmage and Walsh, apples and oranges.