Geert Leinders

[Ventoux Boar]

i appreciate the attempt to save Sky's reputation by painting their leader as a dumbassed ignorant monkey.
but it's not cutting it.
Again, it's not just about Brailsford. If you want to downplay the hiring of Leinders, you have to portray the whole of Sky's management as completely incompetent.

do shine your light on min. 18:15 to 19:15 of this footage:
https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/cheating-special-leinders-team-sky-russia-belichick
you've ignored their comments thus far.

Erm... Not sure I've been busy burnishing reputations. And there's a long way between sports management Jesus and a monkey. Thought we'd discussed the grocery gig? Seems like ace mind-man Steve Peters gave him the once-over and obviously raised no alarms. (But this might be tripe if the source is the team.)

Which other team luminaries do you feel I've traduced? Perhaps Kerrison? For 2 years his GT squads fade when the hammer goes down. Who else? Specifically who does Brailsford have on staff steeped in road lore (tactical and otherwise)?

I don't quite understand the general allergy to the notion that Dave can't cut it. How can a team that hires Leinders have any confidence that their riders aren't freelancing their preparation? They only started looking at rider passports in the wake of the JTL fiasco. What does that say about their monitoring of riders?

etc.

edit: Thought I'd responded to the recording previously. They're just saying everybody knew. I'm not sure that's the case. Even I don't believe that Brailsford is dumb enough to put him on staff if he knew half the truth. A more connected leader would be able to make a few calls and learn enough to steer clear. But I'm not going to argue this. If everybody knew then Brailsford is a moron. Seems to strengthen my point.

 

[Franklin]

The cunning bit is the not getting caught when you're running a team-wide doping scheme. No? As soon as Leinders is interviewed by a serious talk-show host the game's up.

Is Leinders the first ever doping doctor? No, not really. So why has never in history a doctor blown the lid of the pot? Why do you expect Leinders to be this special first case?

Now onto the "But if you want ad oping scheme you would never openly hire a doping doctor". Let's disregard prior history at cycling, because this one is easy to dismiss.

The consequences of hiring Leinders are absolutely zero.

Yes, think about it. What if indeed Leinders was doping up Wiggo and the Dawg? Right now it seems they would be getting away with it without anything close to a scandal.

Quite simply put: There's neglible risk in hiring a doping doctor. On the other hand, there's quite a bit to gain. Leinder was during his final years as a doctor almost at a GT winner a year and amazingly enough he continued that pattern at Sky.

Now this could be a coincidence, if only for a few factors.

1. He was the team doctor of rasmussen. This is not hindsight, but well known.
2, He was the team doctor of Mencov, the infamous #2 of Euipe. Again, not hindsight and well known when Sky hired him/
3. A judge ruled that the Management team of Rabo, which includes him, was part of the whereabouts fraud. This was reported in Dutch media. I find it beyond belief that this would not have been found out. It's not as if you wouldn't do a cursory "Google"on the ex-team doctor of Rasmussen.

And now let's use Hindsight: We now have more details about his tenure at Rabo and can only conclude that he was a major doping doctor.

It's extremely hard not to be extremely sceptical about Leinders tenure at Sky. Indeed, any other explanation is heavily against the odds.

edit: Thought I'd responded to the recording previously. They're just saying everybody knew. I'm not sure that's the case. Even I don't believe that Brailsford is dumb enough to put him on staff if he knew half the truth. A more connected leader would be able to make a few calls and learn enough to steer clear. But I'm not going to argue this. If everybody knew then Brailsford is a moron. Seems to strengthen my point.

*head explodes*

Let's ignore that DB is an insder. Let's ignore that he will almost certainly have known who was on the management team of one of the most important teams in the world.

How do you think this job application went?

Sky recruiter. Any prior experience?
GL. I have been a doctor at Rabo.
Sky recruiter. Okay, that's good enough for me.

It's absurd to imagine that NOBODY thought "hey, just two years ago this guy was the doctor during one of the biggest cycling scandals in the world". Indeed, he was supposedly hired due to his experience... how can you then say you had no idea of his past? It's quite frankly ridiculous.

This would be incompetence and dementia at a staggering level. Somehow the team manager of Rabo manages to pass of as just a doctor. Steven de Jong, Yates, Brailsford, the recruiters, nobody was aware of his prior position at Rabo. Not once did his past job come up at the job-interview (I'm rolling my eyes typing this...) Yet they did hire him for his experience.

It's not even unlikely. It's flat out impossible.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The whole after the fact thing does smack of BS, but I am very keen to know how they hired him in the first place?

Who set them up?

And what did that person say to sell the Dr's services to the team and Brailsford?

 

[sniper]

Is Leinders the first ever doping doctor? No, not really. So why has never in history a doctor blown the lid of the pot? Why do you expect Leinders to be this special first case?

Now onto the "But if you want ad oping scheme you would never openly hire a doping doctor". Let's disregard prior history at cycling, because this one is easy to dismiss.

The consequences of hiring Leinders are absolutely zero.

Yes, think about it. What if indeed Leinders was doping up Wiggo and the Dawg? Right now it seems they would be getting away with it without anything close to a scandal.

Quite simply put: There's neglible risk in hiring a doping doctor. On the other hand, there's quite a bit to gain. Leinder was during his final years as a doctor almost at a GT winner a year and amazingly enough he continued that pattern at Sky.

Now this could be a coincidence, if only for a few factors.

1. He was the team doctor of rasmussen. This is not hindsight, but well known.
2, He was the team doctor of Mencov, the infamous #2 of Euipe. Again, not hindsight and well known when Sky hired him/
3. A judge ruled that the Management team of Rabo, which includes him, was part of the whereabouts fraud. This was reported in Dutch media. I find it beyond belief that this would not have been found out. It's not as if you wouldn't do a cursory "Google"on the ex-team doctor of Rasmussen.

And now let's use Hindsight: We now have more details about his tenure at Rabo and can only conclude that he was a major doping doctor.

It's extremely hard not to be extremely sceptical about Leinders tenure at Sky. Indeed, any other explanation is heavily against the odds.

great post.
be prepared for troll arguments and strawmen to come your way.

 

[Franklin]

DW: I'm certain we will never know as that question popped up many times before.

The best we have is that "someone"at sky hired him and that DB was "unaware of his reputation".

Now you can guess who would have the power to hire a doctor to guide and protect your biggest assets (the riders). My bet it wasn't the driver of the team bus

 

[simoni]

Not sure that would tell us much. They had Scott Sunderland working for them at the start didn't they to hire the first batch of riders and doubtless they'll have had contact with agents etc. who will all know what's going on behind the scenes. Murky waters indeed.

 

[sniper]

Is Leinders the first ever doping doctor? No, not really. So why has never in history a doctor blown the lid of the pot? Why do you expect Leinders to be this special first case?

Now onto the "But if you want ad oping scheme you would never openly hire a doping doctor". Let's disregard prior history at cycling, because this one is easy to dismiss.

The consequences of hiring Leinders are absolutely zero.

Yes, think about it. What if indeed Leinders was doping up Wiggo and the Dawg? Right now it seems they would be getting away with it without anything close to a scandal.

Quite simply put: There's neglible risk in hiring a doping doctor. On the other hand, there's quite a bit to gain. Leinder was during his final years as a doctor almost at a GT winner a year and amazingly enough he continued that pattern at Sky.

Now this could be a coincidence, if only for a few factors.

1. He was the team doctor of rasmussen. This is not hindsight, but well known.
2, He was the team doctor of Mencov, the infamous #2 of Euipe. Again, not hindsight and well known when Sky hired him/
3. A judge ruled that the Management team of Rabo, which includes him, was part of the whereabouts fraud. This was reported in Dutch media. I find it beyond belief that this would not have been found out. It's not as if you wouldn't do a cursory "Google"on the ex-team doctor of Rasmussen.

And now let's use Hindsight: We now have more details about his tenure at Rabo and can only conclude that he was a major doping doctor.

It's extremely hard not to be extremely sceptical about Leinders tenure at Sky. Indeed, any other explanation is heavily against the odds.


*head explodes*

Let's ignore that DB is an insder. Let's ignore that he will almost certainly have known who was on the management team of one of the most important teams in the world.

How do you think this job application went?

Sky recruiter. Any prior experience?
GL. I have been a doctor at Rabo.
Sky recruiter. Okay, that's good enough for me.

It's absurd to imagine that NOBODY thought "hey, just two years ago this guy was the doctor during one of the biggest cycling scandals in the world". Indeed, he was supposedly hired due to his experience... how can you then say you had no idea of his past? It's quite frankly ridiculous.

This would be incompetence and dementia at a staggering level. Somehow the team manager of Rabo manages to pass of as just a doctor. Steven de Jong, Yates, Brailsford, the recruiters, nobody was aware of his prior position at Rabo. Not once did his past job come up at the job-interview (I'm rolling my eyes typing this...) Yet they did hire him for his experience.

It's not even unlikely. It's flat out impossible.

great post.
agreed on all accounts.

it's a nasty bit of trolling from ventoux boar/david walsh et al. that does indeed boggle the mind.
be prepared for more strawmen and BS arguments to come your way.

 

[Catwhoorg]

The whole after the fact thing does smack of BS, but I am very keen to know how they hired him in the first place?

Who set them up?

And what did that person say to sell the Dr's services to the team and Brailsford?

The story is that they were referred to him by former Rabo riders on the team.
Haymann usually cited, but obviously Flecha and others are possibilites. It seems a reasonable that this is true.

As the point #3, thats a no idea from me.

 

[ray j willings]

DB " can you make my riders go fast"
GL " Yes"
DB " Your hired"

 

[sniper]

The story is that they were referred to him by former Rabo riders on the team.
Haymann usually cited, but obviously Flecha and others are possibilites. It seems a reasonable that this is true.

As the point #3, thats a no idea from me.

as to #3, Leinders' resume speaks/spoke for itself.

well, that, and we can speculate that some ex-Rabo at Sky knew about Leinders' links with Zorzoli.
Hell, Zorzoli himself may have recommended Leinders to Sky.
Or Pat?
Nothing would surprise me.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

as to #3, Leinders' resume speaks/spoke for itself.

well, that, and we can speculate (as has been done already) that some ex-Rabo at Sky knew about Leinders' links with Zorzoli.
Hell, Zorzoli himself may have recommended Leinders to Sky.
Or Pat?
Nothing would surprise me.

This. Easily.

 

[MarkvW]

If I was setting up a competitive professional cycling team, I would do my best to completely insulate the team itself from doping influences. If a rider talked about doping with his teammates, he would be gone the next day. Anything that tainted the team's claim of marginal gains would be gone.

I would then hire a "high performance" team doctor. I would make it absolutely clear that I am hiring him or her to provide one on one medical services to my riders and he is to provide his medical services and opinions only to each of them (individually).

What goes on between the team doctor and his rider-patient is now none of my business. I would then claim that my team is the cleanest in all the land!

 

[sniper]

If I was setting up a competitive professional cycling team, I would do my best to completely insulate the team itself from doping influences. If a rider talked about doping with his teammates, he would be gone the next day. Anything that tainted the team's claim of marginal gains would be gone.

I would then hire a "high performance" team doctor. I would make it absolutely clear that I am hiring him or her to provide one on one medical services to my riders and he is to provide his medical services and opinions only to each of them (individually).

What goes on between the team doctor and his rider-patient is now none of my business. I would then claim that my team is the cleanest in all the land!

and if you weren't getting any results, would you fire the doctor?

 

[Ventoux Boar]

The consequences of hiring Leinders are absolutely zero.

Yes, think about it. What if indeed Leinders was doping up Wiggo and the Dawg? Right now it seems they would be getting away with it without anything close to a scandal.

Quality post. Cheers. Disagree with this. Brailsford's reputation has taken a battering. Either he's guilty of incompetence in relation to one his brand's key attributes - winning clean - or fraud. And he's one loose word from a shafted former employee away from exposure. While finding him incompetent as a pro-cycling manager, I doubt he would volunteer for this punishment.

That said, while I'm unsure that Leinders' 'expertise' was public knowledge at the time of the hire, I do agree that any competent boss should have been able to discover enough to steer clear with a couple of calls.

It's absurd to imagine that NOBODY thought "hey, just two years ago this guy was the doctor during one of the biggest cycling scandals in the world". Indeed, he was supposedly hired due to his experience... how can you then say you had no idea of his past? It's quite frankly ridiculous.

This would be incompetence and dementia at a staggering level. Somehow the team manager of Rabo manages to pass of as just a doctor. Steven de Jong, Yates, Brailsford, the recruiters, nobody was aware of his prior position at Rabo. Not once did his past job come up at the job-interview (I'm rolling my eyes typing this...) Yet they did hire him for his experience.

It's not even unlikely. It's flat out impossible.

Agreed. The only conspiratorial angle I can come up with that keeps Brailsford in his job is that Leinders was hired, with the full knowledge of his Murdoch sponsor, to be sacrificed when necessary to divert attention away from the real programme.

That Brailsford knew all of the above, and made an appointment in violation of his totemic ZTP, knowing it would explode in his face, is harder to believe than the notion that he's completely out of his depth.

 

[sniper]

...
That Brailsford knew all of the above, and made an appointment in violation of his totemic ZTP, knowing it would explode in his face, is harder to believe than the notion that he's completely out of his depth.

two TdFs in a row.
what exactly 'exploded in his face'?

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Digger's Forum Fanclub

great post.
agreed on all accounts.

it's a nasty bit of trolling from ventoux boar/david walsh et al. that does indeed boggle the mind.
be prepared for more strawmen and BS arguments to come your way.

Even for a founder minor of the Digger 5, that's embarrassing.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

two TdFs in a row.
what exactly 'exploded in his face'?

Learn to read. It's a prerequisite of learning to think for yourself. Get back to us when you're ready.

 

[MarkvW]

and if you weren't getting any results, would you fire the doctor?

Hell yes! Then I'd hire a another doctor and resume my business model.

 

[gooner]

The whole after the fact thing does smack of BS, but I am very keen to know how they hired him in the first place?

Who set them up?

And what did that person say to sell the Dr's services to the team and Brailsford?

De Jongh vouched for him. It's been said here before, he's the go to guy a journalist should be putting questions to on it.

 

[thehog]

De Jongh vouched for him. It's been said here before, he's the go to guy a journalist should be putting questions to on it.

So Brailsford is off the hook? Doesn't the buck stop with him?

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Fanclub tag team

So Brailsford is off the hook? Doesn't the buck stop with him?

As Snipey takes a well-deserved breather, it's time for some Hogwash to cleanse the "discussion forum" of unorthodox opinions. RIP thread.

 

[the sceptic]

So Brailsford is off the hook? Doesn't the buck stop with him?

Brailsford is both a genius and a moron at the same time. The man who created marginal gains, but not smart enough to do background checks on his doctor.

bot logic at it's finest.

 

[thehog]

Brailsford is both a genius and a moron at the same time. The man who created marginal gains, but not smart enough to do background checks on his doctor.

bot logic at it's finest.

Stop this doping only view of everything.

She has been vehemently anti-doping and consistent in her views throughout her career. She has even asked for her blood tests to be made public. Is that not enough for you?

 

[wrinklyvet]

Stop this doping only view of everything.

Just time for a good laugh before I go out for Friday night!

 

[thehog]

Just time for a good laugh before I go out for Friday night!

Go easy on the darker ales. They pack a punch