General Doping Thread.

[fmk_RoI]

You seem to be implying the drugs bust with Arkea in which Nairo was implicated but not charged and received no ban.

I ain't implying nothing, I'm asking you a direct question, cause I'm *** if I can work out your point without help.

How can you bring an investigation that went nowhere into this? How is that relevant to Baudin?

 

[topcat]

I ain't implying nothing, I'm asking you a direct question, cause I'm *** if I can work out your point without help.

How can you bring an investigation that went nowhere into this? How is that relevant to Baudin?

I don’t think Nairo should be on the blacklist and should be free to ride. Teams seem to be discouraged from signing him. I think this is all wrong.
One guy gets off lightly and Nairo getting a de-facto career ban doesn’t seem fair to me.
That’s my point.

 

[fmk_RoI]

One guy gets off lightly and Nairo getting a de-facto career ban doesn’t seem fair to me.
That’s my point.

You seem to be pre-empting a decision by AG2R on the guy's future. Why don't you just wind it in a bit and wait to see what actually happens instead of attempting to create something out of nothing.

 

[samhocking]

I don’t think Nairo should be on the blacklist and should be free to ride. Teams seem to be discouraged from signing him. I think this is all wrong.
One guy gets off lightly and Nairo getting a de-facto career ban doesn’t seem fair to me.
That’s my point.

The 'mood' of the world tour teams management to Tramadol was shaped a lot at the rumours and public reaction Sky were using it. Same as TUE use with Wiggins. What was it one rider said? Paraphrasing it was iirc Tim Wellens who said "using a TUE now is a move to being in fear your entire career if it became public and that you'll go through what Wiggins did, even though the use is legal. We all pull out the race now instead". The TUE numbers suggest this is the case because TUE numbers are minuscule today compared to 2012. Same is the case for Tramadol, it's so ethically debated, it's a death sentence to any rider positive for it.

 

[topcat]

You seem to be pre-empting a decision by AG2R on the guy's future. Why don't you just wind it in a bit and wait to see what actually happens instead of attempting to create something out of nothing.

You asked.

 

[Bolder]

I think if you're in such pain that you need Tramadol (ISIS drug of choice ) then riding a pro-cycling race is not advisable.

I agree that straight Tram in a high dose is potentially dangerous, but I take a capsule that is mostly Doliprane with a little bit of Tramodol. No side effects, and it unblocks my back when the disk acts up. I don't mind TUEs all that much ; I take medication to get me through my workday if I need to. Ofc they're abused all the time but in principle I'm OK with them. And, of course if you are caught with any prohibited substance you should pay for it...

 

[Sciatic]

The 'mood' of the world tour teams management to Tramadol was shaped a lot at the rumours and public reaction Sky were using it. Same as TUE use with Wiggins. What was it one rider said? Paraphrasing it was iirc Tim Wellens who said "using a TUE now is a move to being in fear your entire career if it became public and that you'll go through what Wiggins did, even though the use is legal. We all pull out the race now instead". The TUE numbers suggest this is the case because TUE numbers are minuscule today compared to 2012. Same is the case for Tramadol, it's so ethically debated, it's a death sentence to any rider positive for it.

Some nice omertà there by Wellens. TUE’s were (are)seriously abused so if riders are seeking less of them, then great. Riders who have a well documented illness/disease (yes, they will fudge) that requires medicine—fine, have the TUE’s, including daily dosages, in place before a race and make it transparent. Sudden instant TUE request during a race for symptoms of whatever, that’s where it gets really sketchy. If a rider has symptoms of a known problem get exacerbated during a GT, that shouldn’t allow them to quadruple their dose. Yes, it could help that rider return to health—as would would IV rehydration or supplemental oxygen from the team car (like we have during NFL games)

 

[Rob5091]

and if it helped you to go through a painful day halfway into a 3-week GT...?

I'll repeat myself, if Baudin (I assume you're referring to him) needed Tramadol to get through stage 17 at the Giro, which was 198 km long but was a long downhill run to the coast (no hills, no uphill at all to talk of) then for his own well being he should not have started. Tramadol is a strong synthetic opiod and WADA will have it on the banned list from 1st January 2024. As AG2R is a member of MPCC (which has a ban on Tramadol), I assume he took it on his own accord and not via the team.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Nairo's big mistake was getting caught while finishing 5th on the gc in the Tour and therefore casting the shadow of doubt over all those who beat him. That's why he has been blacklisted by the French cycling mafia.

 

[Rob5091]

I don’t think Nairo should be on the blacklist and should be free to ride. Teams seem to be discouraged from signing him. I think this is all wrong.
One guy gets off lightly and Nairo getting a de-facto career ban doesn’t seem fair to me.
That’s my point.

Nairo tested positive twice which meant he got a bigger penalty -

https://www.uci.org/pressrelease/tramadol-ban-all-you-need-to-know/74DtzJjWw8w8CeZqpNsRwP
Rider penalties

• A first offence committed by a rider will be penalised with disqualification from the event. In addition, a fine of CHF 5,000 will be imposed if the rider is a member of a UCI-registered team. In all other cases, the fine will be CHF 1,000.
• A second offence will result in disqualification from the event and a five-month suspension. If a further offence is committed, a nine-month suspension will be imposed.

 

[roundabout]

Nairo tested positive twice which meant he got a bigger penalty -

https://www.uci.org/pressrelease/tramadol-ban-all-you-need-to-know/74DtzJjWw8w8CeZqpNsRwP
Rider penalties

• A first offence committed by a rider will be penalised with disqualification from the event. In addition, a fine of CHF 5,000 will be imposed if the rider is a member of a UCI-registered team. In all other cases, the fine will be CHF 1,000.
• A second offence will result in disqualification from the event and a five-month suspension. If a further offence is committed, a nine-month suspension will be imposed.

I don't think the number of offences is calculated according to number of samples.

See the release regarding Quintana

UCI statement concerning Nairo Quintana Rojas

www.uci.org

Infringements of the in-competition ban on using tramadol are offences under the UCI Medical Rules. They do not constitute Anti-doping Rule Violations. As this is a first offence, Nairo Alexander Quintana Rojas is not declared ineligible and can therefore participate in competitions.

 

[Rob5091]

Quintana was a lucky man then as he tested positive twice.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Nairo tested positive twice which meant he got a bigger penalty -

https://www.uci.org/pressrelease/tramadol-ban-all-you-need-to-know/74DtzJjWw8w8CeZqpNsRwP
Rider penalties

• A first offence committed by a rider will be penalised with disqualification from the event. In addition, a fine of CHF 5,000 will be imposed if the rider is a member of a UCI-registered team. In all other cases, the fine will be CHF 1,000.
• A second offence will result in disqualification from the event and a five-month suspension. If a further offence is committed, a nine-month suspension will be imposed.

In anti-doping, multiple positives in the same competition are one offence. Q is on one strike, he did not get a suspension.

 

[Red Rick]

Let's just say *** is getting really confusing with riders getting blacklisted over stuff not sanctioned by WADA

 

[fmk_RoI]

Let's just say *** is getting really confusing with riders getting blacklisted over stuff not sanctioned by WADA

It's supposed to be an MPCC blacklist. That all the non-MPCC teams are also sticking to, for reasons unexplained.

 

[ivanic]

blood bag during Giro rest day...

 

[Lequack]

What if doping were completely legal? Welcome to the Enhanced Games
Could a sporting event with no drug testing at all work? Cyclist investigates

Loading…

www.cyclist.co.uk

‘The Enhanced Games is organising an alternative to the corrupt Olympic Games. We believe that science makes humanity – and sports – better and fairer. Sports, without drug testing.’ All that was lacking from the mission statement of the controversial pronouncement back in June was a clap of thunder.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Surely not random 22 year old AG2R rider doing the Full-Ferarri GT prep with bags on the rest days to come 73rd in the Giro

Learn from Nairo's mistake, just admit it and say you didn't know it was banned or that you had horrific pain somewhere and needed it is the play here I think.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Arkea lost Nairo - they lost everything they had. Great 2022 TdF, terrible 2023 TdF.

Arkea and Ag2R are MPCC members.

I strongly believe Arkea will be furious if Ag2R won’t get rid of Baudin, now. Arkea paid the highest price; normally, Ag2R cannot keep Baudin, now…

Difficult situation. Did anyone speak to Baudin beforehand, about what to think of before using tramadol? This guy seems to be left in the rain.

He did a solid season till now, really good. But I actually fear the worst now: the team probably will fear bad press if they keep on letting him race. Probably that was it, for him, for now. But could re-enter WT ranks some day, because he‘s young.

Actually a „WTF?!“ case, after this heartbreak story with Nairo Quintana. Hope for Baudin that he can live with whatever comes, now.

I today immediately thought of Steve Houanard. Same Ag2R story, but about EPO. Houanard few years later said that getting caught and leaving pro cycling was the best thing that could‘ve happened to him. So hope Baudin also finds peace for his soul, no matter if he stays in pro cycling or has to leave.

Lavenu has been there for 30 years or so now, so I‘d imagine they take better care of riders/neo pros at the biggest races. Another weird pro cycling story…

 

[veganrob]

The 'mood' of the world tour teams management to Tramadol was shaped a lot at the rumours and public reaction Sky were using it. Same as TUE use with Wiggins. What was it one rider said? Paraphrasing it was iirc Tim Wellens who said "using a TUE now is a move to being in fear your entire career if it became public and that you'll go through what Wiggins did, even though the use is legal. We all pull out the race now instead". The TUE numbers suggest this is the case because TUE numbers are minuscule today compared to 2012. Same is the case for Tramadol, it's so ethically debated, it's a death sentence to any rider positive for it.

It wasn't rumors. Sky admitted to the finish bottles. Tramadol and caffeine

 

[Rob5091]

In anti-doping, multiple positives in the same competition are one offence. Q is on one strike, he did not get a suspension.

Thanks for the clarification! I still can not get my head around why a guy who came in 93 rd on the stage and was 80th on GC over 2 hours behind the leader gets tested.

 

[Aimar16]

I take Tramodol once in a while for a bulging disk in my back. Super effective; but I don't think it's a performance enhancing medication. I see no reason why you couldn't take it, in limited amounts, with a TUE.

Use it with high levels of caffeine. I don't have experience with a painkiller as strong as tramadol, but milder as paracetamol + caffeine definitely makes me feel better when riding and reduces the feeling of tiredness

 

[fmk_RoI]

I still can not get my head around why a guy who came in 93 rd on the stage and was 80th on GC over 2 hours behind the leader gets tested.

Because AD testing is intelligence-led, it's not just dropping a hook in the river and hoping to catch something.

If you want to follow your logic, they shouldn't be wasting money using DBS testing on MPCC teams seeing as they've foresworn Tramadol.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Seems AG2R have suspended Baudin, as per MPCC rules. Their website is currently inaccessible, so you'll have to try later for the press release https://ag2rcitroenteam.com/ag2r-citroen-team-communique-officiel/

Text:

L’équipe AG2R CITROËN prend acte de la décision de l’UCI de disqualifier Alex Baudin du Giro d’Italia 2023 à la suite de la détection de Tramadol dans les analyses effectuées lors de la 17e étape.

En raison de cette décision, l’équipe AG2R CITROËN met en réserve le coureur à titre conservatoire.

L’équipe AG2R CITROËN, membre fondateur du Mouvement pour un Cyclisme Crédible (MPCC), prône la pratique d’un cyclisme en adéquation avec des règles éthiques fortes, dans le respect le plus strict des règlements de l’UCI et du MPCC.

 

[samhocking]

It wasn't rumors. Sky admitted to the finish bottles. Tramadol and caffeine

They released a statement to the press saying they don't use Tramadol, so it was rumours in as much as what Michael Barry said happened was never backed up afaik?

""None of our riders should ride whilst using Tramadol — that’s the policy of this team," said Sky in a statement. "Team Sky do not give it to riders whilst racing or training, either as a pre-emptive measure or to manage existing pain."

Team Sky: We do not use Tramadol

Team Sky issues statement in wake of comment made by former rider Michael Barry that the team used powerful painkiller Tramadol

www.cyclingweekly.com