General Doping Thread.

[Rob5091]

I truly believed in cycling the last 10 years. Maybe it will be known as the clean decade or something bc the performances now are just on another planet. Torres today? Really? 6.04 wkg for 60? It seems very unlikely to me that something strange is not happening now. Plateu de Beille was incredible. Literally.

Can people who understand more sport science than me explain how all riders can improve enourmously in just a year or two?

Don't give me more carbs. It helps, but don't get us where we are today. Sure the bikes are faster. But watts are watts even when they are estimated. For climbs with long duration and steep gradient - the watts are basically correct within a few %. Riders even confirm this.

I honestly hope that someone can help me understand bc I'm rattled.

How many years did it take to learn the truth about Lance & USPS? From Lance's first win, people questioned his performances, so be patient, just sit back and enjoy the circus.

 

[E_F_]

I truly believed in cycling the last 10 years. Maybe it will be known as the clean decade or something bc the performances now are just on another planet. Torres today? Really? 6.04 wkg for 60? It seems very unlikely to me that something strange is not happening now. Plateu de Beille was incredible. Literally.

Can people who understand more sport science than me explain how all riders can improve enourmously in just a year or two?

Don't give me more carbs. It helps, but don't get us where we are today. Sure the bikes are faster. But watts are watts even when they are estimated. For climbs with long duration and steep gradient - the watts are basically correct within a few %. Riders even confirm this.

I honestly hope that someone can help me understand bc I'm rattled.

Do you have split personality or something, haha? I was justnow trying to share those same thoughts with you...

 

[Pozzovivo]

Do you have split personality or something, haha? I was justnow trying to share those same thoughts with you...

I do not have a personality disorder.

I think it is very disingengious of you to suggest that I have one, just because I can argue about things from different points of view in different threads. This is intellectually stimulating for me - and I learn a lot from debating with people.

 

[Pozzovivo]

How many years did it take to learn the truth about Lance & USPS? From Lance's first win, people questioned his performances, so be patient, just sit back and enjoy the circus.

Am I understanding you correctly if I say you firmly believe it is doping that explain this?

I tuly think big leaps can be made to improve training etc to improve human performance. We are no way near knowing enough about physiology to be close to finding the limits! With the scientific knowledge of 30 years from now they will go so much faster without any drugs, as was the case 30 years ago.

There is such a thing as a breakthrough in science. It could happen now even if it seems extremely unlikely.

 

[Rob5091]

Am I understanding you correctly if I say you firmly believe it is doping that explain this?

"Doping" as in "chemically enhanced" and whether it's on WADA's prohibitied list or not, does not seem to matter at the moment.

 

[Pozzovivo]

"Doping" as in "chemically enhanced" and whether it's on WADA's prohibitied list or not, does not seem to matter at the moment.

For me it matters a lot. I think the rules are the rules and breaking them is what matters. If you don't care about the rules then everything is clean.

Do you essentially believe that they are doing things that would be illegal if Wada and the boys did their job? And we will probably later refer to as doping.

 

[E_F_]

I do not have a personality disorder.

I think it is very disingengious of you to suggest that I have one, just because I can argue about things from different points of view in different threads. This is intellectually stimulating for me - and I learn a lot from debating with people.

I'm sorry. I meant it as a joke. I get what you mean about arguing from multiple sides!

 

[Pozzovivo]

I'm sorry. I meant it as a joke. I get what you mean about arguing from multiple sides!

Thank you! I took it perhaps a bit too personally. I see that I contradicted myself in hindsight.

 

[E_F_]

I took it perhaps a bit too personally.

Well, it was meant to be kind and friendly, so I think I just failed pretty epically

 

[Sciatic]

Am I understanding you correctly if I say you firmly believe it is doping that explain this?

I tuly think big leaps can be made to improve training etc to improve human performance. We are no way near knowing enough about physiology to be close to finding the limits! With the scientific knowledge of 30 years from now they will go so much faster without any drugs, as was the case 30 years ago.

There is such a thing as a breakthrough in science. It could happen now even if it seems extremely unlikely.

Everything in cycling (and athletics) history points to using whatever performance enhancements they can get away with even at great risk. So I think the onus should be on those arguing that riders are clean to explain why things are suddenly different now.
Yes there have been improvements in equipment and training, but that has always been the case from decade to decade. The equipment and training that Riis, Armstrong, Pantani had were much better than Mercx had in the 60s—did that mean they weren’t doping!

 

[Pozzovivo]

Everything in cycling (and athletics) history points to using whatever performance enhancements they can get away with even at great risk. So I think the onus should be on those arguing that riders are clean to explain why things are suddenly different now

Great point. The burden of proof may lay on me and others who believe they are clean. Hard to prove a negative still. I will never get access to the data that will be persuasive. I firmly believe the bio-passport limits blood doping to a very great degree among the top guys who get tested a lot. JV and Pog are the most tested atheletes in the world. Unfortunately history shows have little that can matter. I'm kinda starting to think that some teams are using new methods to enhance performance. I wonder what that can be? Standard drugs and blood doping is very unlikely.

 

[E_F_]

I firmly believe the bio-passport limits blood doping to a very great degree among the top guys who get tested a lot.

Some of the people who helped instate the ABP are of the belief that it has become pretty useless by now.

 

[E_F_]

I'm kinda starting to think that some teams are using new methods to enhance performance. I wonder what that can be? Standard drugs and blood doping is very unlikely.

For sure microdosing EPO and blood transfusions, steroids, growth hormones etc probably also various medications are unlikely to be behind the metoric rise in performance we're seeing - as you write. Someone posted a study here, showing carbon rebreathing to be a massively effective way of increasing hematocrit (probably in competition even, unlike infusions which you can't do every day and microdosing EPO which in competition (or generally, really) won't have a massive impact) and carbon rebreathing isn't currently banned by WADA - which goes to show why their list of banned practices isn't functional as a definition of doping, in my mind.

 

[Sciatic]

Great point. The burden of proof may lay on me and others who believe they are clean. Hard to prove a negative still. I will never get access to the data that will be persuasive. I firmly believe the bio-passport limits blood doping to a very great degree among the top guys who get tested a lot. JV and Pog are the most tested atheletes in the world. Unfortunately history shows have little that can matter. I'm kinda starting to think that some teams are using new methods to enhance performance. I wonder what that can be? Standard drugs and blood doping is very unlikely.

The ultimate answer for those on the outside is pretty much “who knows?” Im partial to looking at historical patterns to understand what’s happening but obviously that’s not the same as evidence.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Some of the people who helped instate the ABP are of the belief that it has become pretty useless by now.

Really? Vaughters really believe in it still. Or at least he says so when he is on the broadcast.

 

[E_F_]

Really? Vaughters really believe in it still. Or at least he says so when he is on the broadcast.

Vaughters is full of asterisks...

 

[Pozzovivo]

For sure microdosing EPO and blood transfusions, steroids, growth hormones etc probably also various medications are unlikely to be behind the metoric rise in performance we're seeing - as you write. Someone posted a study here, showing carbon rebreathing to be a massively effective way of increasing hematocrit (probably in competition even, unlike infusions which you can't do every day and microdosing EPO which in competition (or generally, really) won't have a massive impact) and carbon rebreathing isn't currently banned by WADA - which goes to show why their list of banned practices isn't functional as a definition of doping, in my mind.

Yeah I kinda agree that monoxide inhalation is at the very least unethical. But if it is not banned then I still see it as playing by the rules and thus not doping. It's a definition thing I guess.

This one right? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32118696/

Looks like a small sample to base conclusions on. But maybe?

UAE, Visma and ISP did this exhale test thing also but triatheletes like Blummenfeldt have been doing that for many years.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Vaughters is full of asterisks...

Oh, like for instance?

 

[yaco]

"Doping" as in "chemically enhanced" and whether it's on WADA's prohibitied list or not, does not seem to matter at the moment.

Well it does matter. One is in breach of the WADA anti-doping Code and one is not. Professional athletes will always take substances to improve their performance, otherwise you ar ebeing unprofesional.

 

[pastronef]

Some of the people who helped instate the ABP are of the belief that it has become pretty useless by now.

that's where I say the ball is in Wada's court. if the testing and prevention are not on par and have big holes and every time either they take YEARS to investigate results or they get their decisions overturned, well then it's their problem, not the rider's/teams'. it's a cut-throat professional sport, everything is on the limit. and if there's not a clear clean way of testing/knowing what's inside LEGAL and what's not, then it's on Wada/Uci

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Oh, like for instance?

Vaughters has always shifted the goalposts around maintaining the stance he needs to to keep selling his snake oil. It is imperative to his snake oil sales that people believe the sport to be clean.

Remember him saying that he would quit the sport on the spot if any of his riders test positive? He's had half a dozen since, but he keeps moving the goalposts so that it justifies his not making good on his word.

Which is probably not surprising for a guy who sold the story of the sport cleaning up but then ran a team which had more ex-dopers than any other on the WT at one point, outed his own riders as dopers, and presided over said riders performing far better when supposedly clean than they ever did when supposedly doping.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Vaughters has always shifted the goalposts around maintaining the stance he needs to to keep selling his snake oil. It is imperative to his snake oil sales that people believe the sport to be clean.

Remember him saying that he would quit the sport on the spot if any of his riders test positive? He's had half a dozen since, but he keeps moving the goalposts so that it justifies his not making good on his word.

Which is probably not surprising for a guy who sold the story of the sport cleaning up but then ran a team which had more ex-dopers than any other on the WT at one point, outed his own riders as dopers, and presided over said riders performing far better when supposedly clean than they ever did when supposedly doping.

Thanks for clearing that up. Who did he out? Hesjedal?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Thanks for clearing that up. Who did he out? Hesjedal?

Hesjedal and Tommy D (again).

 

[E_F_]

This one right? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32118696/

Looks like a small sample to base conclusions on. But maybe?

I'll be honest, I didn't actually look further into it. I guess I was happy to just accept it because it affirms my worldview, lmao.

 

[E_F_]

that's where I say the ball is in Wada's court. if the testing and prevention are not on par and have big holes and every time either they take YEARS to investigate results or they get their decisions overturned, well then it's their problem, not the rider's/teams'. it's a cut-throat professional sport, everything is on the limit. and if there's not a clear clean way of testing/knowing what's inside LEGAL and what's not, then it's on Wada/Uci

I'd pretty much agree with that.