Geraint Thomas, the next british hope

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

It would be bizarre if a track rider podiums in the Giro, however I think Thomas will blow up at some stage.

Good call considering Coppi used every available PED under the sun

HI Beno, the guy there is not Coppi

 

[veganrob]

Did he claim that was Coppi? I missed that.

 

[King Boonen]

If it isn't Coppi who is it?

 

[samhocking]

People forget, back then, riders rode 18 hours at a time for 6 days and the winner was the rider with the most laps, hence The 6-Day. Riders would ride around when the stands were empty reading newspapers, eating and drinking to keep the laps ticking over until the racing began again when the stands filled back up and betting began again and they would earn money. Much of Grand Tour riders rudimentary understanding of performance enhancement originates experimenting with various substances and trial and error in the 6-Days. That's why so many GC contenders used the track to perfect their GC preparations I guess?

That is Coppi above btw. Doing that was a pretty common site in those races. Here's a London 6-Day rider doing the same in 1938:

 

[oldcrank]

That is one beautiful Claud Butler. Classic track geometry.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

I brought Roglic up to indicate that a lot can be achieved in much less time than 10 years (which is how long Thomas career as professional road racer already lasts).

Indeed 10 years is a long time, but for at least 7, maybe 8 years "G" was a northern classics rider. Then what 2 years ago, thought "oh I'll try and become a GC rider now". If a random 28/29/30 year old northern classics rider made the same change, there would be some "G" defenders who would being calling "foul".

He's always been a top climber relative to other northern classics specialists. If you want to attack Thomas, attack his sudden ability to top 5 at PSM, but him become a stage racing specialist over the course of a 3 year period isn't necessarily that suspicious

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I brought Roglic up to indicate that a lot can be achieved in much less time than 10 years (which is how long Thomas career as professional road racer already lasts).

Indeed 10 years is a long time, but for at least 7, maybe 8 years "G" was a northern classics rider. Then what 2 years ago, thought "oh I'll try and become a GC rider now". If a random 28/29/30 year old northern classics rider made the same change, there would be some "G" defenders who would being calling "foul".

He's always been a top climber relative to other northern classics specialists. If you want to attack Thomas, attack his sudden ability to top 5 at PSM, but him become a stage racing specialist over the course of a 3 year period isn't necessarily that suspicious

It is totally suspicious.

You either have the natural ability to recover quickly or you dont. You cannot learn that. You can alternatively take loads of PEDs to help climb, TT and recover. See Sky for massive transformations. Also USPS, T-Mobile, CSC and others.....

 

[samhocking]

Think there's a huge misunderstanding of the type of training involved for a 4km pursuit these days. Since around 2004, understanding of how to keep lactic acid at bay between pursuit events is now the holy grail of team pursuiting and this understanding how to deal with it, ironically all comes from climbing mountains, not going around a track. Today all the pursuit riders train for hundreds of hours and thousands of km in the mountains. Ironically to pedal fast over 4km in a circle, the best training to underpin it is spent climbing mountains day after day. Even in build-up before an Olympics, riders will be eating 6000 calories a day across 3 track and road sessions, so in terms of energy output and stress scores, large parts of the core training now is really no different than what you would do for a mountain stage race. When you dig deep down into the performance of holding well over 500 watts for 4 minutes and training regularly involves holding over 400 watts for 30 minutes or more up a mountain as training to get to the 500 watts for 4 minutes (see it as base training for 4km) the last thing pursuiters do these days is train for 4km.

 

[meat puppet]

^ Quite. According to this study, high overall volume of low intensity hours, the use of stage races as training and some track specific high intensity work near the key events was the regimen of choice 15-20 years ago too: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12048333

Nothing mysterious to this training model, really. Physiology is what it is. Doesn't mean doping was not involved then or now, of course. The very high volumes involved are a tough beast to handle productively.

In Thomas' case one also wonders about the weightloss, or the ups and downs. Pursuiters do not need to be stick figures. Taller GC boyos today do.

 

[King Boonen]

...That is Coppi above btw...

Yeah, I'm was pretty certain it was. Serse doesn't look enough like him to confuse the two (and that would still be a Coppi anyway ).

 

[samhocking]

Re:

^ Quite. According to this study, high overall volume of low intensity hours, the use of stage races as training and some track specific high intensity work near the key events was the regimen of choice 15-20 years ago too: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12048333

Nothing mysterious to this training model, really. Physiology is what it is. Doesn't mean doping was not involved then or now, of course. The very high volumes involved are a tough beast to handle productively.

In Thomas' case one also wonders about the weightloss, or the ups and downs. Pursuiters do not need to be stick figures. Taller GC boyos today do.

It's not low intensity high volume with track used as high-intensity build-up now though, they're spending a month at a time burning 400-500 watts up a mountain several times everyday in their Mallorca training camps as the core training for the pursuit. Low intensity is not important for a 4km pursuit because the critical point of a 4km pursuit doesn't happen after already being on a bike for the previous 180km at low intensity like a typical road race is. Today, as much time is spent climbing as on the track and that climbing and understanding lactate and recovery underpins everything to riding a team or individual pursuit today, not just GB, but all the 3 top pursuit countries do it now. This is the big understanding with endurance track. Their events are close-enough together that dealing with hydrogen between events is critical for success. Training alone isn't enough anymore, you need to know what is happening to riders bodies between qualifying and semis etc to get to the times being posted today. You're right it's all about physiology though in a general sense. A rider can either hold 500 watts for 4 minutes or they can't and most can't without better understanding of lactate.

 

[meat puppet]

None of which I would dispute.

Yet, bet you a virtual fiver that if we got a glance of Thomas' training data, over the season roughly 80% of his time will have been spent below the first ventilatory threshold and/or at less than 2mmol blood lactate, ie. at low intensity.

Volume drives relevant adaptations as such.

 

[samhocking]

Totally. While obviously we're in the clinic and any performance here can be explained with doping, many either ignore, or are not aware, that climbing mountains underpins nearly all endurance track training and has done for nearly a decade now. All of the pursuit data on riders like Wiggins, Thomas, Clancy, Kennaugh, Romero, Armistead, King etc all comes from mountain training camps and then gets applied to the track. You simply don't have enough track time available in UK to get that data on the velodrome, there's simply not enough tracks in UK to do it, so you have to do this in the mountains on roads where you can maintain 500w for 5 minute efforts at a time. Very difficult to do that on roads in and around Manchester during the winter and difficult to simulate on a trainer too where perceived effort is always higher and therefore not as accurate.

 

[thehog]

Froome vs Thomas Geriant for the Tour?

 

[King Boonen]

Thomas has done well one day then blown up the next far too many times for this to be indicative of anything yet.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Thomas has done well one day then blown up the next far too many times for this to be indicative of anything yet.

True.

His climbing looked impressive today:

http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube3/?title=Last+Km+of+Stage+5&dashboard=criterium-du-dauphine-libere&id=048PJJcRnOc&yr=2018

 

[King Boonen]

He can certainly shift when he wants. If he does that a few times then maybe they've switched his methods with Froome...

 

[proffate]

how many more races would G have won (grand tours?) if it weren't for his penchant to flip the rubber side up? Froome may be a chemistry experiment and a cyborg but at least he can handle his bike with only one notable exception I can think of.

 

[MartinGT]

When was the last time 'G' raced track?

Kirby has a total obsession with him racing track and his track background. Wasnt it 2012 the last time he raced track?

 

[Saint Unix]

Re:

When was the last time 'G' raced track?

Kirby has a total obsession with him racing track and his track background. Wasnt it 2012 the last time he raced track?

Kirby needs to keep up the narrative that "The Track" is where all great cycling talent is forged. Oh, and the potholed roads of Kenya, of course.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

It’s worth noting about Thomas that he has underperformed his perceived talent on the road. We aren’t talking about a guy coming from nowhere mid career. He’s been a hyped talent continuously since he was young. He’s now 32 and all he’s won of real significance is one edition of Paris Nice and one edition of E3. That’s a nice career for the vast majority of riders but not all that much to show for a decade of prominence as a potential big winner. Part of this is the general disadvantage faced by jack of all trades riders in an era of specialists, part of it is an almost Poels like inability to produce reliable, predictable form day after day.

We will see if that has changed. Looking great on one mountain against a field with uncertain form a month out from the Tour is as likely to mean that he has misjudged his preparation for the Tour as it is to mean that he’s suddenly stepped forward.

 

[The Hegelian]

Riding well for GC in a short stage race is one thing. Dropping pure climbers on genuine climbs is quite another. He's done it before and he'll do it again and for whatever talent he's always had, I can't buy into this.

 

[brownbobby]

how many more races would G have won (grand tours?) if it weren't for his penchant to flip the rubber side up? Froome may be a chemistry experiment and a cyborg but at least he can handle his bike with only one notable exception I can think of.

None.

 

[Robert5091]

Remember G is/was #1 for Sky if Froomey's banned so he must be on the "Team Leader's Preparation". Though now it looks likly Dawg will be at TdF,

 

[thehog]

Re:

Remember G is/was #1 for Sky if Froomey's banned so he must be on the "Team Leader's Preparation". Though now it looks likly Dawg will be at TdF,

I can see a WAG rift brewing. G taking yellow early, Froome refusing to help him with peacemaking, Michelle angerly tweeting at Gs wife. What a Tour!!