Germany threaten jail for athletes under new doping law

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Mar 13, 2009
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This seems very questionable to me, to say the least. Yes, doping is fraud but at the same time it is also taking drugs, and I would never throw someone who takes drugs into jail for taking drugs. Jail the ones who sell it and push it on people, and built a system with an effective prevention and support for athletes to perform clean, but don't throw them into jail. Have them repay their salaries if that's what their contract states.

Look at Ricco, was he a ******, yes, but does he deserve to be thrown into jail, I certainly don't think so. Doping also has a lot to do with personnality and character, strength and weakness
 
Christian said:
This seems very questionable to me, to say the least. Yes, doping is fraud but at the same time it is also taking drugs, and I would never throw someone who takes drugs into jail for taking drugs. Jail the ones who sell it and push it on people, and built a system with an effective prevention and support for athletes to perform clean, but don't throw them into jail. Have them repay their salaries if that's what their contract states.

Look at Ricco, was he a ******, yes, but does he deserve to be thrown into jail, I certainly don't think so. Doping also has a lot to do with personnality and character, strength and weakness
Junkies are normally just hurting themselves, certainly by using the stuff. (putting aside the criminal activity on the supply side)
Dopers "steals" from clean athletes, almost like pickpockets.
Clearly there is scaleability build into the law, plus the opportunity to provide information about the supply side and other users to just end up being fined rather than ending up behind bars.

I think the model will work very well, also act strongly preventive.

(note: I don't think its a good idea to put junkies in jail)
 
Jul 15, 2013
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Christian said:
This seems very questionable to me, to say the least. Yes, doping is fraud but at the same time it is also taking drugs, and I would never throw someone who takes drugs into jail for taking drugs. Jail the ones who sell it and push it on people, and built a system with an effective prevention and support for athletes to perform clean, but don't throw them into jail. Have them repay their salaries if that's what their contract states.

Look at Ricco, was he a ******, yes, but does he deserve to be thrown into jail, I certainly don't think so. Doping also has a lot to do with personnality and character, strength and weakness
If you can't do the time..............
 
Oct 16, 2010
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The Hitch said:
When making jokes like this you should add amulets or people might think you are serious.
wasn't joking here though:)
if one assumes (as I do) that they dope, one would expect them to be pretty uncomfortable while signing an anti-doping law like that.
then you look at the footage, and you see a bunch of pretty cramped faces.
hardly surprising.

generally i've noticed the average soccer player is not half as cramped as the average cyclist when it comes to public appearances.
(not that soccer players don't dope, obviously, but they're hardly aware of it and hardly ever confronted with it.)
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Christian said:
This seems very questionable to me, to say the least. Yes, doping is fraud but at the same time it is also taking drugs, and I would never throw someone who takes drugs into jail for taking drugs. Jail the ones who sell it and push it on people, and built a system with an effective prevention and support for athletes to perform clean, but don't throw them into jail. Have them repay their salaries if that's what their contract states.

Look at Ricco, was he a ******, yes, but does he deserve to be thrown into jail, I certainly don't think so. Doping also has a lot to do with personnality and character, strength and weakness
you're not hating on ricky riccio.

no one h8s on ricky riccio and skates free.
take this as ur first and final warning
 
Nov 11, 2014
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Stop Paying

I know that technically this makes them not professionals, but stop paying them to compete...dope will leave the sport....problem solved. I'm kidding of course...or am I?
 
sniper said:
wasn't joking here though:)
if one assumes (as I do) that they dope, one would expect them to be pretty uncomfortable while signing an anti-doping law like that.
then you look at the footage, and you see a bunch of pretty cramped faces.
hardly surprising.

generally i've noticed the average soccer player is not half as cramped as the average cyclist when it comes to public appearances.
(not that soccer players don't dope, obviously, but they're hardly aware of it and hardly ever confronted with it.)
Wada should fund to have cameras installed at the next Olympic opening ceremony, that focus on every single athlete in the building so when they say the Olympic oath you can tell examine which ones look nervous doing so.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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May 26, 2010
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Is sporting fraud not a white collar crime?

I think sporting cheats should be prosecuted as 'white collar criminals' and penalised by a massive fine or jail time and a criminal record.

Not just athletes, but doping docs, coaches, owners, and DS......
 
At the professional level, its fraud. (obtaining money by deception)

Plain and simple.

Everyone involved should be prosecuted under criminal law.



(now a local runner using T-patches to help him win 5Ks probably isn't at the level of fraud, but the guys under discussion certainly are)
 
Jul 11, 2013
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In 2012 Aziz Yldirim got 6 years in prison for matchfixing in the Fenerbache scandal.

So proportional One could argue that cheaters in cycling has gotten off too easy for to long time as the offences seem similar..

I haven't read to detail how it's going to work yet, but In principle I would not mind making it a criminal offence. if it's carried out in combination with common sense and a perspective of the rotten culture cycling was, and probably are enduring.

On the other hand proper proportions should be upheld across boarders so i'd rather see a joint solution backed by WADA and other enforcers in cycling.
Not so sure that a few german athletes in jail is going to help much in a larger scale.. But again -it could be a start..
 
Mar 25, 2013
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mrhender said:
In 2012 Aziz Yldirim got 6 years in prison for matchfixing in the Fenerbache scandal.

So proportional One could argue that cheaters in cycling has gotten off too easy for to long time as the offences seem similar..

I haven't read to detail how it's going to work yet, but In principle I would not mind making it a criminal offence. if it's carried out in combination with common sense and a perspective of the rotten culture cycling was, and probably are enduring.

On the other hand proper proportions should be upheld across boarders so i'd rather see a joint solution backed by WADA and other enforcers in cycling.
Not so sure that a few german athletes in jail is going to help much in a larger scale.. But again -it could be a start..
You can't compare Yildirim's actions with someone just specifically doping. Criminal gangs where he was the big pusher behind it were involved in all this.

It's a tough one to analyse. If you're talking about a del Moral or a Leinders who are abusing their medical expertise, I can see an argument for them to get the slammer.

On the other hand, does a guy like Houanard deserve jail time where he likely doped just because he was struggling for WT points?

I don't see dopers as bad people who should be treated as some sort of speck of dirt in life. I try to keep my criticism entirely on a sporting perspective and I certainly don't see dopers as threats to my walk of life or society in general.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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gooner said:
You can't compare Yildirim's actions with someone just specifically doping. Criminal gangs where he was the big pusher behind it were involved in all this.

It's a tough one to analyse. If you're talking about a del Moral or a Leinders who are abusing their medical expertise, I can see an argument for them to get the slammer.

On the other hand, does a guy like Houanard deserve jail time where he likely doped just because he was struggling for WT points?

I don't see dopers as bad people who should be treated as some sort of speck of dirt in life. I try to keep my criticism entirely on a sporting perspective and I certainly don't see dopers as threats to my walk of life or society in general.
To clarify about Yildrim..
He got three years and nine monts for the matchfixing part and two years + six months for forming a criminal orginazation so I wasn't all precise.

Now i don't see matchfixing as much more different then doping.
Both are tampering with results to acheive an aim.

I very much agree that dopers aren't necessarily bad people because they dope. I also don't think that criminals necessarily are bad people because they have a prison verdict under the belt. But society have chosen to criminilize only one type of cheating that is very similar to another.

People aren't flawless and in the case of cycling there is a cultural problem.
This is why I say that it should include common sense and an understanding of the cultural problem.
You applied that common sense with your examples.
That was something along the line of what I was looking for...

You could say that the Yildrims of cycling are those behind the scenes orchestrating the whole thing. And the cyclicts are the players on the field screwing things up on purpose.. Both segments are doing wrong and the enablers should be punished the most(like they are in matchfixing).
I think the loners who has lost their way should get of easier in comparison to organized cheating.

So In principle I don't see how doping is any different then matchfixing, and matchfixing is in New Zeeland punishible for up to 7 years.
What I was attempting to say is that I think that proportinally this is way off..

If the threat of jail was there. Maybe, just maybe some of the dopers, doctors, team-owners would think twice...
But is should be a joint decision between nations and organizations...
With well-thought out sentences for different offenses.
 
Mar 25, 2013
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mrhender said:
To clarify about Yildrim..
He got three years and nine monts for the matchfixing part and two years + six months for forming a criminal orginazation so I wasn't all precise.

Now i don't see matchfixing as much more different then doping.
Both are tampering with results to acheive an aim.
There is a difference. Matchfixing is cheating to lose as well and to maximise profit off the betting market. This is where criminal organisations come into it and sometime even in a threatening manner. Olivier Kapo who you may remember when he was at Auxerre and Birmingham spoke recently about his club in Greece being run by the mafia and injury time in games going up to nearly 100 mins. Interpol and Europol have to get involved in dealing with this due to the criminal severity nature that is accustomed to it. The non-league players arrested in England had links to the Asian syndicates.

Even as bad as guys like Bruyneel and Riis are, I wouldn't even put them anywhere near a guy like Wilson Perumul in terms of his activity in match fixing.

I very much agree that dopers aren't necessarily bad people because they dope. I also don't think that criminals necessarily are bad people because they have a prison verdict under the belt. But society have chosen to criminilize only one type of cheating that is very similar to another.

People aren't flawless and in the case of cycling there is a cultural problem.
This is why I say that it should include common sense and an understanding of the cultural problem.
You applied that common sense with your examples.
That was something along the line of what I was looking for...

You could say that the Yildrims of cycling are those behind the scenes orchestrating the whole thing. And the cyclicts are the players on the field screwing things up on purpose.. Both segments are doing wrong and the enablers should be punished the most(like they are in matchfixing).
I think the loners who has lost their way should get of easier in comparison to organized cheating.

So In principle I don't see how doping is any different then matchfixing, and matchfixing is in New Zeeland punishible for up to 7 years.
What I was attempting to say is that I think that proportinally this is way off..

If the threat of jail was there. Maybe, just maybe some of the dopers, doctors, team-owners would think twice...
But is should be a joint decision between nations and organizations...
With well-thought out sentences for different offenses.
Agree on doctors and team managers, there is a case and argument to be made on them.
 
Nov 2, 2013
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gooner said:
I don't see dopers as bad people who should be treated as some sort of speck of dirt in life. I try to keep my criticism entirely on a sporting perspective and I certainly don't see dopers as threats to my walk of life or society in general.
If one is very talented in sport and has delayed school or other career development to pursue sport as a career then athletes who cheat by doping are going to hurt your ability to earn a living in the career you chose with the belief the authorities are serious about enforcing the WADA code. Having a high profile career then may give a leg up to other opportunities post sport. Look at the x-USPS guys. If one does not wish to dope and thus go against the rules of their sport then dopers do threaten ones walk in life and are seen as 'criminals'. Regardless of if they are nice guys or not.

To combat doping the risk vs reward situation needs to change dramatically.

Heavy punishments will make athletes think twice, and if the athletes stop seeking out products from doping Dr's and suppliers then this market dries up.

The problem with Doping in sport can all start and end at the athlete level. Letting the athletes off too easy is a mistake.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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gooner said:
There is a difference. Matchfixing is cheating to lose as well and to maximise profit off the betting market. This is where criminal organisations come into it and sometime even in a threatening manner. Olivier Kapo who you may remember when he was at Auxerre and Birmingham spoke recently about his club in Greece being run by the mafia and injury time in games going up to nearly 100 mins. Interpol and Europol have to get involved in dealing with this due to the criminal severity nature that is accustomed to it. The non-league players arrested in England had links to the Asian syndicates.

Even as bad as guys like Bruyneel and Riis are, I wouldn't even put them anywhere near a guy like Wilson Perumul in terms of his activity in match fixing.
There are differences yes. The main difference is the one you point out about losing on purpose for profitting on the betting-market.
But that is a technical difference imo, Someone also loses because others dope...
What plays out is the same ;
Cheat to acheive an aim (and in cycling there is also the financial aspect of it)

Re: the criminal organizations behind:
I would agree that the players in some cases might be different, and to cheat under proven threat should not be punishable under any circumstances.
But this is taking the subject to a corner to locate differences.

Overall they share many similarities and I used the word proportions.
The act of match-fixing is in some places punishable up to seven years.
The act of doping is not a criminal offense at all..

Cycling is very much threatened by doping.
Football etc. are very much threatened by match-fixing..

Both threats involves cheating by tampering with results.
Both results in gain for some, and loss for others..

I feel some ambivalence towards throwing cheaters in jail.
But Cycling hasn't really been able to solve its problems imo.

A very important part of this, if i understand correctly is that by making it a criminal offense it widely expands the measures of investigating the potential cheaters and those behind. Today options/tools for investigation are almost limited to testing. That singular approach hasn't gotten us very far..
 
Mar 25, 2013
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westerner said:
If one is very talented in sport and has delayed school or other career development to pursue sport as a career then athletes who cheat by doping are going to hurt your ability to earn a living in the career you chose with the belief the authorities are serious about enforcing the WADA code. Having a high profile career then may give a leg up to other opportunities post sport. Look at the x-USPS guys. If one does not wish to dope and thus go against the rules of their sport then dopers do threaten ones walk in life and are seen as 'criminals'. Regardless of if they are nice guys or not.

To combat doping the risk vs reward situation needs to change dramatically.

Heavy punishments will make athletes think twice, and if the athletes stop seeking out products from doping Dr's and suppliers then this market dries up.

The problem with Doping in sport can all start and end at the athlete level. Letting the athletes off too easy is a mistake.
It's cheating in a sporting perspective and context, not to society and people in general in a criminal way. Sport isn't the be all and end all in life and I think necks should be reigned back into reality with this thinking. Just because of the prevalence of doping in sport and the difficulty in addressing and detecting it, doesn't mean we should be stooping to the level of trying to convict athletes. In many cases they would be naive young sports people brought into the doping net.

I'd much rather a straight life ban for the likes EPO, HGH, etc with a big incentive for a reduction for spilling the beans. I think with the threat of gone for good on the horizon, more would be willing to take up the option mentioned than we are currently seeing.
 
Aug 9, 2014
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Catwhoorg said:
Can anyone educated in law explain to me how doping, and winning isn't not prosecuted under obtaining property by deception at the very least, or fraud ?

It seems to me that those offenses cover it very nicely, so a new law isn't necessarily needed.
I am not a lawyer, but my memory from reading about the Jason Giambi case was in the US you have to prove that:
1) their team / sport, etc... really didn't know that they were doping.
2) That doping fits the legal definition of fraud.
3) that the above can be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt"

On point 1), teams don't usually want to press "fraud" criminal charges. They don't want the defense to investigate them and turn up dirty laundry - like that the team probably knew about doping, (or wife beating if its the NFL) but just turned a blind eye.

Point 2) seems like a slam dunk, but it's not necessarily. A good lawyer would get very picky about how the law defines "fraud" and look for loopholes. Is it "fraud" if it's widely known that lots of people dope, for example.

Point 3) is a big one, too. Prosecutors don't like to take on cases that they might not win. If you get one person on the jury who buys the "everyone was doing it" or "everyone knows cycling is dirty," they you won't get a conviction.

The Fed went after a few high profile (alleged) dopers - Bonds and Clemens and lost.

But the above can just be an excuse for prosecutors who don't want to go after high profile or powerful athletes. Note that Landis was prosecuted for fraud, by Armstrong has not been.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/41875616/

Germany did go after Ulrich for fraud and he ended up resolving the case by paying a fine.

http://www.dw.de/payment-spares-ullrich-from-criminal-fraud-prosecution/a-3266384
 
Aug 9, 2014
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mrhender said:
I feel some ambivalence towards throwing cheaters in jail.
But Cycling hasn't really been able to solve its problems imo.

A very important part of this, if i understand correctly is that by making it a criminal offense it widely expands the measures of investigating the potential cheaters and those behind. Today options/tools for investigation are almost limited to testing. That singular approach hasn't gotten us very far..
I think this is the central element. Criminalizing 'doping' (including blood doping,) gives authorities more investigative powers.

Used properly, authorities could leverage it to get 'little fish' (riders) to inform on 'big fish' (Doctors, distributors). Under that scenario, riders could get plea deals - fines, probation. And there'd be clear laws to prosecute Doctors, etc...

In 2004, would Hamilton have flipped on Fuentes, if Hamilton was threaten with jail time?

Used improperly, a few star riders would be scapegoated and punished harshly. But the 'big fish,' would remain untouched.

I don't think laws work as a good deterent to doping. Hamilton and Millar admit to being frightened of France's anti-doping laws, but still doping anyhow.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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What about taking a multi-million insurance to get something extra out of an expected TdF win? All good gamesmanship or criminal intent?
 

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