doperhopper said:how about other countries, is there a similar jail threat anywhere out there?
Dunno, but one could imagine others would follow once we have two major European countries setting the pace so to speak.
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doperhopper said:how about other countries, is there a similar jail threat anywhere out there?
don't want to read too much into faces, but Martin and Kittel look particularly uncomfortable.Bavarianrider said:Kittel, Martin and Degenkolb were at the official signing of the bill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=N6Dq7bbD96g&app=desktop
Christian said:This seems very questionable to me, to say the least. Yes, doping is fraud but at the same time it is also taking drugs, and I would never throw someone who takes drugs into jail for taking drugs. Jail the ones who sell it and push it on people, and built a system with an effective prevention and support for athletes to perform clean, but don't throw them into jail. Have them repay their salaries if that's what their contract states.
Look at Ricco, was he a ******, yes, but does he deserve to be thrown into jail, I certainly don't think so. Doping also has a lot to do with personnality and character, strength and weakness
sniper said:don't want to read too much into faces, but Martin and Kittel look particularly uncomfortable.
Smile for the camera? Forget it!
Christian said:This seems very questionable to me, to say the least. Yes, doping is fraud but at the same time it is also taking drugs, and I would never throw someone who takes drugs into jail for taking drugs. Jail the ones who sell it and push it on people, and built a system with an effective prevention and support for athletes to perform clean, but don't throw them into jail. Have them repay their salaries if that's what their contract states.
Look at Ricco, was he a ******, yes, but does he deserve to be thrown into jail, I certainly don't think so. Doping also has a lot to do with personnality and character, strength and weakness
wasn't joking here thoughThe Hitch said:When making jokes like this you should add amulets or people might think you are serious.
you're not hating on ricky riccio.Christian said:This seems very questionable to me, to say the least. Yes, doping is fraud but at the same time it is also taking drugs, and I would never throw someone who takes drugs into jail for taking drugs. Jail the ones who sell it and push it on people, and built a system with an effective prevention and support for athletes to perform clean, but don't throw them into jail. Have them repay their salaries if that's what their contract states.
Look at Ricco, was he a ******, yes, but does he deserve to be thrown into jail, I certainly don't think so. Doping also has a lot to do with personnality and character, strength and weakness
sniper said:wasn't joking here though
if one assumes (as I do) that they dope, one would expect them to be pretty uncomfortable while signing an anti-doping law like that.
then you look at the footage, and you see a bunch of pretty cramped faces.
hardly surprising.
generally i've noticed the average soccer player is not half as cramped as the average cyclist when it comes to public appearances.
(not that soccer players don't dope, obviously, but they're hardly aware of it and hardly ever confronted with it.)
"An athlete should be sanctioned under the sports rules which have been developed over many years," WADA President Craig Reedie said, "and he should not be sanctioned under criminal law."
"People who say: 'If you cheat, you will be put in jail,' that is not something with which we are comfortable," Reedie said. "We do not believe that that should happen."
mrhender said:In 2012 Aziz Yldirim got 6 years in prison for matchfixing in the Fenerbache scandal.
So proportional One could argue that cheaters in cycling has gotten off too easy for to long time as the offences seem similar..
I haven't read to detail how it's going to work yet, but In principle I would not mind making it a criminal offence. if it's carried out in combination with common sense and a perspective of the rotten culture cycling was, and probably are enduring.
On the other hand proper proportions should be upheld across boarders so i'd rather see a joint solution backed by WADA and other enforcers in cycling.
Not so sure that a few german athletes in jail is going to help much in a larger scale.. But again -it could be a start..
gooner said:You can't compare Yildirim's actions with someone just specifically doping. Criminal gangs where he was the big pusher behind it were involved in all this.
It's a tough one to analyse. If you're talking about a del Moral or a Leinders who are abusing their medical expertise, I can see an argument for them to get the slammer.
On the other hand, does a guy like Houanard deserve jail time where he likely doped just because he was struggling for WT points?
I don't see dopers as bad people who should be treated as some sort of speck of dirt in life. I try to keep my criticism entirely on a sporting perspective and I certainly don't see dopers as threats to my walk of life or society in general.
mrhender said:To clarify about Yildrim..
He got three years and nine monts for the matchfixing part and two years + six months for forming a criminal orginazation so I wasn't all precise.
Now i don't see matchfixing as much more different then doping.
Both are tampering with results to acheive an aim.
I very much agree that dopers aren't necessarily bad people because they dope. I also don't think that criminals necessarily are bad people because they have a prison verdict under the belt. But society have chosen to criminilize only one type of cheating that is very similar to another.
People aren't flawless and in the case of cycling there is a cultural problem.
This is why I say that it should include common sense and an understanding of the cultural problem.
You applied that common sense with your examples.
That was something along the line of what I was looking for...
You could say that the Yildrims of cycling are those behind the scenes orchestrating the whole thing. And the cyclicts are the players on the field screwing things up on purpose.. Both segments are doing wrong and the enablers should be punished the most(like they are in matchfixing).
I think the loners who has lost their way should get of easier in comparison to organized cheating.
So In principle I don't see how doping is any different then matchfixing, and matchfixing is in New Zeeland punishible for up to 7 years.
What I was attempting to say is that I think that proportinally this is way off..
If the threat of jail was there. Maybe, just maybe some of the dopers, doctors, team-owners would think twice...
But is should be a joint decision between nations and organizations...
With well-thought out sentences for different offenses.
gooner said:I don't see dopers as bad people who should be treated as some sort of speck of dirt in life. I try to keep my criticism entirely on a sporting perspective and I certainly don't see dopers as threats to my walk of life or society in general.
gooner said:There is a difference. Matchfixing is cheating to lose as well and to maximise profit off the betting market. This is where criminal organisations come into it and sometime even in a threatening manner. Olivier Kapo who you may remember when he was at Auxerre and Birmingham spoke recently about his club in Greece being run by the mafia and injury time in games going up to nearly 100 mins. Interpol and Europol have to get involved in dealing with this due to the criminal severity nature that is accustomed to it. The non-league players arrested in England had links to the Asian syndicates.
Even as bad as guys like Bruyneel and Riis are, I wouldn't even put them anywhere near a guy like Wilson Perumul in terms of his activity in match fixing.
westerner said:If one is very talented in sport and has delayed school or other career development to pursue sport as a career then athletes who cheat by doping are going to hurt your ability to earn a living in the career you chose with the belief the authorities are serious about enforcing the WADA code. Having a high profile career then may give a leg up to other opportunities post sport. Look at the x-USPS guys. If one does not wish to dope and thus go against the rules of their sport then dopers do threaten ones walk in life and are seen as 'criminals'. Regardless of if they are nice guys or not.
To combat doping the risk vs reward situation needs to change dramatically.
Heavy punishments will make athletes think twice, and if the athletes stop seeking out products from doping Dr's and suppliers then this market dries up.
The problem with Doping in sport can all start and end at the athlete level. Letting the athletes off too easy is a mistake.
Catwhoorg said:Can anyone educated in law explain to me how doping, and winning isn't not prosecuted under obtaining property by deception at the very least, or fraud ?
It seems to me that those offenses cover it very nicely, so a new law isn't necessarily needed.
mrhender said:I feel some ambivalence towards throwing cheaters in jail.
But Cycling hasn't really been able to solve its problems imo.
A very important part of this, if i understand correctly is that by making it a criminal offense it widely expands the measures of investigating the potential cheaters and those behind. Today options/tools for investigation are almost limited to testing. That singular approach hasn't gotten us very far..