Gesink Discussion Thread

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Spine Concept said:
It is definitely a case of ''I know you are but what am I'' and you know why. Being a hypocrite you ought to know that one. Accusing someone of doing something you do yourself? Not practicing what you preach? Sounds familiar? ;) There is nothing left for me to say to you other than I'm glad everyone can see how low you can fall off that high pedestal you seem to think you sit on. ;) Checkmate.
Chess is a tactical game, you cant win in 1 move. The oppnent needs to move too.

See when i used check mate is because you put yourself into the trap by claiming not to have been arrogant, when you claimed to be the defender of the meek.

This gave me the opportunity to finish the trap by quoting the sentences where you were arrogant. Queen takes b4, king encircled, checkmate.

However you are merely using it whenever you throw an insult. - I owned you - checkmate. You are an idiot - checkmate.

Your mum - checkmate.

See it doesn't work like that.

Btw im sure the forum is eternally grateful that after 12000 posts in 2 years it was finaly you that was able to put me in my place. Because none of them could do it, it was only Spine Concept that can do it.

Just like DT is im sure eternally grateful that you pronounce him off bounds to any discussion.
 
The Hitch said:
Chess is a tactical game, you cant win in 1 move. The oppnent needs to move too.

See when i used check mate is because you put yourself into the trap by claiming not to have been arrogant, when you claimed to be the defender of the meek.

This gave me the opportunity to finish the trap by quoting the sentences where you were arrogant. Queen takes b4, king encircled, checkmate.

However you are merely using it whenever you throw an insult. - I owned you - checkmate. You are an idiot - checkmate.

Your mum - checkmate.

See it doesn't work like that.

Btw im sure the forum is eternally grateful that after 12000 posts in 2 years it was finaly you that was able to put me in my place. Because none of them could do it, it was only Spine Concept that can do it.

Just like DT is im sure eternally grateful that you pronounce him off bounds to any discussion.
Again, you take things out of context and in a pathetic manner try to twist and turn it so you appear to be right. Highlighting the last sentecne of my post and using that to prove your point. Lol. Quit while you can still save face Hitch, this is sad. I used ''checkmate'' because I have uncovered you as a hypocrite, so as you put it yourself it was not in ''one move'' but rather derived from all of the posts in our argument. I already quoted you several times where I point to your hypocrisy in the post in question. Thus deeming your ridiculous rant surrounding the proper use of the word ''checkmate'' futile. Do you think your quick google search of the semantics of the word ''checkmate'', 12000 posts, and ridiculous seemingly insightful ramblings is impressing anyone? And then you want to accuse me of boasting? Again, quite the hypocrite. The majority of your arguments are plenty in content but weak in value. Nice try though, what's next? Can't wait.
 
Kwibus said:
I tend to agree with you, allthough 2nd at the TdF is no small feat.
Besides that Andy also won L-B-L which is a huuuge win.

I'm not going to deny that I'm a fan of Gesink, just like I'm a fan of all dutch riders really. All I can hope is that he, Mollema and Kruiswijk will have good form for this TdF. It could actually bring some action in the mountains since that's the place they have to take time.
Allthough i'm afraid Rabobank tactics will be waaay too passive for anything spectaculair.
I agree, though I'm still hopeful that aside from GT's he will pick up a couple of monuments along the way. I mentioned this above but do you think that while Gesink is finding out if he has it or not during the Tour that Mollema and Kruijswijk will sit tight just in case they have to take the reigns? Or will they as you put it ''bring some action'' in the mountains? I wonder what the Rabo tactics will be though given their history...:eek: I admit that it would be lovely to see a Rabo train going up the mountain and destroying the field a la Sky. :p The only one missing in that train would be Kelderman, Luisle and him put on quite the display on Mt Baldy this year. More of the same in the Tour please.
 
theyoungest said:
Given that he was nowhere at the pointy end of races so far this year, it was obvious he needed some more hard racing miles. So going for GC in California, or at least not taking it easy, was the obvious choice.
I don't disagree with the latter, but going for the overall win is something else. I don't know what Rabobank expects from him in July, so I can't say if it was ill-advised or not. If the ultimate goal is to perform at the World's, or possibly the Vuelta, then sure.



Mollema is a bit of a special case, the guy hates altitude training, and prefers to just race himself into form. For him Suisse seems like a logical choice.
Mollema hasn't raced at all since Romandie. He could have done with one or two more short stage races then, like Andy Schleck used to do.
 
A true champ goes for the win every time he can, Gesink was 100% right to go for the TOC when he saw he had the form to do it and I'm sure he'll go for the TDS too, especially since he lost it unexpectedly in 2010.

I doubt going for the win in these races changes anything for his TDF performance, i.e. he didn't peak for them, just turned out he was better than the rest. Besides there'll be less pressure at the TDF, same goes for Wiggins' 2012 season.
 
webvan said:
A true champ goes for the win every time he can, Gesink was 100% right to go for the TOC when he saw he had the form to do it and I'm sure he'll go for the TDS too, especially since he lost it unexpectedly in 2010.

I doubt going for the win in these races changes anything for his TDF performance, i.e. he didn't peak for them, just turned out he was better than the rest. Besides there'll be less pressure at the TDF, same goes for Wiggins' 2012 season.
Besides people make the mistake of comparing Gesink to guys who really peak to races like andy Schleck.

Gesinks fitness doesn't work that way. If he is not in a good shape in may/june he will definately not be in good shape in july. He can hold a very good form for a long time once he has a good base level. He has a peak form obviously, but that's nothing like Andy Schleck who has a low base level and an incredible peak form. Gesink is just not that type of rider
 
Aug 29, 2011
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Apparently Boogerd thinks Gesink (and TGBM) are in the wrong team and that they will never fulfill their full potential at Rabobank, because "the talented riders can do nothing wrong", "they shine in races where they have little pressure" (Gesink in California, for example?) and "there are always mitigating circumstances put forward, they should take up their responsabilities as leader more".

I don't know much about how Rabobank works, but is this really a good description? It's an interesting pov at least.
 
Dec 30, 2011
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CasperVg said:
Apparently Boogerd thinks Gesink (and TGBM) are in the wrong team and that they will never fulfill their full potential at Rabobank, because "the talented riders can do nothing wrong", "they shine in races where they have little pressure" (Gesink in California, for example?) and "there are always mitigating circumstances put forward, they should take up their responsabilities as leader more".

I don't know much about how Rabobank works, but is this really a good description? It's an interesting pov at least.
He is just reawakening an age old complaint against Rabo and their treatement of their talents.
 
May 31, 2011
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CasperVg said:
Apparently Boogerd thinks Gesink (and TGBM) are in the wrong team and that they will never fulfill their full potential at Rabobank, because "the talented riders can do nothing wrong", "they shine in races where they have little pressure" (Gesink in California, for example?) and "there are always mitigating circumstances put forward, they should take up their responsabilities as leader more".

I don't know much about how Rabobank works, but is this really a good description? It's an interesting pov at least.
I think it could be true for some guys. Some perform better in environment A, others in environment B. I'm not sure if Boogerd has a sincere look on the situation, considering he left the team with a small fight, as where he wanted to be involved with Rabobank when he quit cycling. But that feeling wasn't mutual. So for that, you could doubt how much Boogerd actually knows about the inside situation at Rabobank.

What he might base his opinion on, is something interesting, but not caused by that comfort zone he talks about, I think. Rabobank trains their talents in a very, very professional way in the CT team. This can sometimes put their riders ahead of their competitors from other teams and thus create high expectations for the future. But when those talents turn pro at age 20/23, their grow margin might not be as big in comparison to their competitors anymore.

Furthermore, he talks about Gesink performing well in races there are little pressure on. I think this has a semi-logical explanation as well. Races with little pressure are mostly smaller races. So first of all, the competition is less fierce than in the Tour where everyone is in top shape. Combine that with the knowledge about Gesink already provided, that he has a very high basic form, and you understand why he performs so well in those smaller races.
I do think he has already performed quite well in races that had pressure on it in the past, considering how he entered the pro ranks with the expectations he brought along with him thanks to results. And are we really convinced changing team would make him better? I think that the only thing about changing team that would make him better is the change in training methods, which is always good for human muscles.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Froome19 said:
He is just reawakening an age old complaint against Rabo and their treatement of their talents.
Indeed, he has been saying this for years now, just like some old farts who rode under Peter Post and Jan Raas and suchlike. They feel like tyranny is the way to go for these talents, I don't think that's how it works anymore in the modern world.

Not to mention that Gesink and Mollema already have (much) better results than Boogerd at that age.
 
theyoungest said:
Indeed, he has been saying this for years now, just like some old farts who rode under Peter Post and Jan Raas and suchlike. They feel like tyranny is the way to go for these talents, I don't think that's how it works anymore in the modern world.

Not to mention that Gesink and Mollema already have (much) better results than Boogerd at that age.
then again boogerd became a pro at a much later age than Gesink and Mollema. He was 23. Gesink and Mollema were pro at 20.
 
They were very different times after all. WordPerfect/Novell didn't have an equivalent of Rabobank GSIII where riders lived basically like professionals since the day they joined the u23 ranks. In fact, the u23 category didn't exist back then - it was just amateur cycling -, nevermind conti-level feeder teams. Not to mention the Clinic issues that meant young riders usually needed a couple of seasons to be able to truly compete, because they hadn't had the chance to build up monster form thanks to natural hormones of dubious procedences.
 
May 31, 2011
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hrotha said:
They were very different times after all. WordPerfect/Novell didn't have an equivalent of Rabobank GSIII where riders lived basically like professionals since the day they joined the u23 ranks. In fact, the u23 category didn't exist back then - it was just amateur cycling -, nevermind conti-level feeder teams. Not to mention the Clinic issues that meant young riders usually needed a couple of seasons to be able to truly compete, because they hadn't had the chance to build up monster form thanks to natural hormones of dubious procedences.
Quoted for truth.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
then again boogerd became a pro at a much later age than Gesink and Mollema. He was 23. Gesink and Mollema were pro at 20.
Yeah. But is that Gesink/Mollema's fault?

hrotha said:
They were very different times after all. WordPerfect/Novell didn't have an equivalent of Rabobank GSIII where riders lived basically like professionals since the day they joined the u23 ranks. In fact, the u23 category didn't exist back then - it was just amateur cycling -, nevermind conti-level feeder teams. Not to mention the Clinic issues that meant young riders usually needed a couple of seasons to be able to truly compete, because they hadn't had the chance to build up monster form thanks to natural hormones of dubious procedences.
The idea that they live like pros isn't completely based on reality though. Unless the average cycling pro has a parttime job or goes to school.
 
May 31, 2011
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theyoungest said:
The idea that they live like pros isn't completely based on reality though. Unless the average cycling pro has a parttime job or goes to school.
Okay, some might still attend school and such. But the training approach, food control, tests etc etc is all based on the Proteam of Rabobank. They have a very good staff at the CT team.
 
theyoungest said:
Yeah. But is that Gesink/Mollema's fault?
That's not the point. The point is Gesink and Mollema doing better at a younger age is pretty irrelevant.
The idea that they live like pros isn't completely based on reality though. Unless the average cycling pro has a parttime job or goes to school.
They're not full-time professional cyclists, no. But compare their team to amateur teams in the early 90s.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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also depends on the rider imo, not sure a rider like gesink needs a different environment for motivation. Of course you'd expect him to be more exposed to local (dutch) media pressures at rabo, which of course I think is not ideal.

Of course at rabo they do get desired leadership, which is ideal (or maybe not always) for these guys. Still rabo has a lot of flaws, and the idea that these guys leaving rabo could be beneficial is hardly news.

anyway as previously mentioned, their is certainly bitterness from boogerd and other critics.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
gesink is barely in the netherlands as it is so i doubt he really suffers from press attention. He's in spain nearly the entire year
yes i know, but this doesn't mean there isn't a lot of pressure and expectation from the netherlands media. Maybe being apart of rabo, kind of a spearhead for dutch cycling intensifies this is what I meant. I remember him being some what angry by some of the negative reactions in holland last year.

anyway for what it's worth I don't think he should leave.
 
Timmy-loves-Rabo said:
yes i know, but this doesn't mean there isn't a lot of pressure and expectation from the netherlands media. Maybe being apart of rabo, kind of a spearhead for dutch cycling intensifies this is what I meant. I remember him being some what angry by some of the negative reactions in holland last year.

anyway for what it's worth I don't think he should leave.
I think Gesinks own expectations and goals for himself are higher than the press. He'll never say what his REAL own goals are tho.
He puts way more pressure on himself than the press can think off. When the press might expect top 5 or podium, I think Gesink really set as goal to win.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
I think Gesinks own expectations and goals for himself are higher than the press. He'll never say what his REAL own goals are tho.
He puts way more pressure on himself than the press can think off. When the press might expect top 5 or podium, I think Gesink really set as goal to win.
well I wont disagree with this, agree he has always come of as having high expectations of himself, hence why I think the environment change wouldn't affect his motivation pattern.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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hrotha said:
That's not the point. The point is Gesink and Mollema doing better at a younger age is pretty irrelevant.
Is it though? Gesink was winning races at an age when Boogerd hadn't even turned pro yet, I'd say that's pretty relevant if he says they're at the wrong team to perform.

Dekker_Tifosi said:
I think Gesinks own expectations and goals for himself are higher than the press. He'll never say what his REAL own goals are tho.
He puts way more pressure on himself than the press can think off. When the press might expect top 5 or podium, I think Gesink really set as goal to win.
I don't know about that, but I think the things that work for Gesink will be the same at every team. It's just in his character, something which Boogerd disregards completely.
 

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