Gesink Discussion Thread

[fungusbear]

I don't like defensive riding and complain about it when I watch the race. But if I was in Gesinks shoes and was gong for my best results since 2010, I would 100% ride the way he is.

 

[Richeypen]

Re:

I don't like defensive riding and complain about it when I watch the race. But if I was in Gesinks shoes and was gong for my best results since 2010, I would 100% ride the way he is.

Its the difference between fans and professionals.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Look, would you guys find it odd if a rider pulled to defend his 50th place in the GC? Then we're haggling over the price, as the quote goes.

What you guys don't seem to grasp is that those of us who didn't like Gesink's defensive riding don't think he had a position to defend in the first place.

Well, yes, but surely that goes for Nibali too. I'm not sure why attacking to move up in the top 10 is much different from responding to an attack to prevent yourself moving down in the top 10. It's all riders fighting for the same positions.

Because Nibali could still podium if he keeps on taking time.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Look, would you guys find it odd if a rider pulled to defend his 50th place in the GC? Then we're haggling over the price, as the quote goes.

What you guys don't seem to grasp is that those of us who didn't like Gesink's defensive riding don't think he had a position to defend in the first place.

Well, yes, but surely that goes for Nibali too. I'm not sure why attacking to move up in the top 10 is much different from responding to an attack to prevent yourself moving down in the top 10. It's all riders fighting for the same positions.

Because Nibali could still podium if he keeps on taking time.

At what point is it a disgrace to defend your gc position. 7th, 6th, 5th, is it okay to defend 4th place?

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

I don't like defensive riding and complain about it when I watch the race. But if I was in Gesinks shoes and was gong for my best results since 2010, I would 100% ride the way he is.

Its the difference between fans and professionals.

amen brother. when I saw him chasing after Nibali I knew someone would moan about it and tell him he's a wanker, ridicolous etc etc
he is *** riding to defend his position, moreover after a few bad years he's defending what he and his LottoJumbo team worked so hard to get to.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Look, would you guys find it odd if a rider pulled to defend his 50th place in the GC? Then we're haggling over the price, as the quote goes.

I hate defensive riding for minor places. But the rules that govern it aren't inexplicable.

A top 10 in the Tour makes a difference to a rider's career prospects, and each individual placing makes some small but real additional difference. The value of Gesink's next contract will be materially altered by a 7th or a 6th or a 5th place GC result. He's a 29 year old endurance athlete with a heart complaint. What kind of idiot would he have to be to just allow riders behind him to take this opportunity from him?

Do I think it makes any difference at all to his career palmares when he retires if he finishes 6th or 12th in some Tour? No, not for a second. Do I think it makes a difference to his living standard over the next few years? Yes. I don't like that cycling's incentive structure works that way, but it does work that way and Gesink isn't responsible for that.

 

[SafeBet]

Problem for Bobby is that Nibbles is still too far down in the GC for Sky and Movistar to bother chasing him. That leaves TJ as his only possible ally whenever Nibbles attacks again.

 

[WillemS]

What I still don't get is that fans still don't seem to understand that riding a top-10 in the Tour is a big deal for riders, team, sponsors and domestic popularity.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

Well, yes, but surely that goes for Nibali too. I'm not sure why attacking to move up in the top 10 is much different from responding to an attack to prevent yourself moving down in the top 10. It's all riders fighting for the same positions.

Surely there's a big difference in attacking to improve your position and defending a 9th or whatever place in the standings? The first is pro-active, and is generally seen as positive action. Another big difference is that Nibali only affects himself, while Gesink was dragging an entire group with him.

 

[Red Rick]

Gesink is gonna finish minutes behind Nibali anyway

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Look, would you guys find it odd if a rider pulled to defend his 50th place in the GC? Then we're haggling over the price, as the quote goes.

You don't get points for 50th place.



People shouldn't blame Gesink, they should blame the system. Riders are now pretty much required to get WT points to get a new contract. We see guys getting bought in from all over the place to make up the difference so of course Gesink is going to look to maximise his points and, therefore, his worth to his team. He also has to satisfy sponsors etc. and so on. I understand why people don't like this kind of racing, but I think a more appropriate saying would be:

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

What I still don't get is that fans still don't seem to understand that riding a top-10 in the Tour is a big deal for riders, team, sponsors and domestic popularity.

Of course we understand that. We just think it shouldn't be.

 

[staubsauger]

If a rider that once was about to podium or maybe even win (grand) tours - Vuelta 2009, TdS 2010 - defends a random top 10, it's a confession of being a loser nowadays.

I'm sorry for Robert after all that he's been through as I like him. But this is hard, naked reality somehow.

 

[Miburo]

Re:

If a rider that once was about to podium or maybe even win (grand) tours - Vuelta 2009, TdS 2010 - defends a random top 10, it's a confession of being a loser.

I'm sorry Robert after all that he's been through as I like him. But this is hard, naked reality somehow.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[46&twoWheels]

Re: Re:

Well, yes, but surely that goes for Nibali too. I'm not sure why attacking to move up in the top 10 is much different from responding to an attack to prevent yourself moving down in the top 10. It's all riders fighting for the same positions.

Surely there's a big difference in attacking to improve your position and defending a 9th or whatever place in the standings? The first is pro-active, and is generally seen as positive action. Another big difference is that Nibali only affects himself, while Gesink was dragging an entire group with him.

completely agree with you
Moreover,we can even see gesink's strategy as a positive "force" because he responded to the attack instead of doing nothing. It was not pro-active but it was "active"

Gesinks knows that he cannot gain any more positions in the GC and he's doing anything in his power to prevent losing positions.
The end justifies the means.
It's like the difference between attacking and defensive football. nothing is wrong with def.football as long as it brings you results. Being 8th for Gesink it's like being 1-0 against an attacking team,now it's time do some catenaccio

 

[Angliru]

Re:

I completely understand why Gesink did that, but I do wonder if the Dutchies on here had similar sympathy for JVDB back in the day.

Of course JVDB wasn't coming back from injuries that made him and cycling fans/media question if he'd ever get back to the level he was prior. The only way for him to know that he's on the right track is to consistently, through the course of the 3 weeks of a grand tour, compete and especially climb with the elite gc contenders. Going off in breaks pursuing stage wins wouldn't necessarily prove that.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Well, yes, but surely that goes for Nibali too. I'm not sure why attacking to move up in the top 10 is much different from responding to an attack to prevent yourself moving down in the top 10. It's all riders fighting for the same positions.

Surely there's a big difference in attacking to improve your position and defending a 9th or whatever place in the standings? The first is pro-active, and is generally seen as positive action. Another big difference is that Nibali only affects himself, while Gesink was dragging an entire group with him.

The only difference is that fans tend to sympathise more with the guy who is attacking. Nibali, a rider I generally like by the way, is a Tour winner, in fact a winner of all three GTs and he is attacking so as to move up in minor top 10 placings! That is, he is placing value on the exact thing that Gesink is getting slated for valuing and with far less justification.

He's a multi GT winner, whether he finishes 8th or 6th or whatever will make very little material difference to his career or his potential earnings. While for Gesink, who has never come close to winning a GT, it will make a very significant difference to his future prospects. Gesink would be a fool not to defend 7th spot. I don't like that cycling is set up in such a way that failing to defend a minor GC place in the Tour would by the height of stupidity, but it is set up that way.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Well, yes, but surely that goes for Nibali too. I'm not sure why attacking to move up in the top 10 is much different from responding to an attack to prevent yourself moving down in the top 10. It's all riders fighting for the same positions.

Surely there's a big difference in attacking to improve your position and defending a 9th or whatever place in the standings? The first is pro-active, and is generally seen as positive action. Another big difference is that Nibali only affects himself, while Gesink was dragging an entire group with him.

The only difference is that fans tend to sympathise more with the guy who is attacking. Nibali, a rider I generally like by the way, is a Tour winner, in fact a winner of all three GTs and he is attacking so as to move up in minor top 10 placings! That is, he is placing value on the exact thing that Gesink is getting slated for valuing and with far less justification.

He's a multi GT winner, whether he finishes 8th or 6th or whatever will make very little material difference to his career or his potential earnings. While for Gesink, who has never come close to winning a GT, it will make a very significant difference to his future prospects. Gesink would be a fool not to defend 7th spot. I don't like that cycling is set up in such a way that failing to defend a minor GC place in the Tour would by the height of stupidity, but it is set up that way.

Major ***.

If Nibali is trying to still win the Tour he still needs those seconds

 

[SoigneurNL]

Re: Re:

Well, yes, but surely that goes for Nibali too. I'm not sure why attacking to move up in the top 10 is much different from responding to an attack to prevent yourself moving down in the top 10. It's all riders fighting for the same positions.

Surely there's a big difference in attacking to improve your position and defending a 9th or whatever place in the standings? The first is pro-active, and is generally seen as positive action. Another big difference is that Nibali only affects himself, while Gesink was dragging an entire group with him.

The only difference is that fans tend to sympathise more with the guy who is attacking. Nibali, a rider I generally like by the way, is a Tour winner, in fact a winner of all three GTs and he is attacking so as to move up in minor top 10 placings! That is, he is placing value on the exact thing that Gesink is getting slated for valuing and with far less justification.

He's a multi GT winner, whether he finishes 8th or 6th or whatever will make very little material difference to his career or his potential earnings. While for Gesink, who has never come close to winning a GT, it will make a very significant difference to his future prospects. Gesink would be a fool not to defend 7th spot. I don't like that cycling is set up in such a way that failing to defend a minor GC place in the Tour would by the height of stupidity, but it is set up that way.

Major ***.

If Nibali is trying to still win the Tour he still needs those seconds

So, Gesink should not defend his position because somebody else is supposedly still trying to win the Tour? In that case, let's just put Froomey, Quintana, Valverde, TJ, Contador and Nibbles on the road and let them duke it out. No need for others to interfere with the major GC guys, because defending your position is just lame and stupid right?

Barguil riding like crazy to be the top placed French guy after Gallopin fell behind is oke, but Gesink defending his 7th in the overall is weak? That just doesn't make any sense. All these guys want to be as high on the GC as they possibly can. And they'll try and achieve that by attacking when possible and defending when necessary. If you don't like it go watch an individual sport.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Look, would you guys find it odd if a rider pulled to defend his 50th place in the GC? Then we're haggling over the price, as the quote goes.

You don't get points for 50th place.



People shouldn't blame Gesink, they should blame the system. Riders are now pretty much required to get WT points to get a new contract. We see guys getting bought in from all over the place to make up the difference so of course Gesink is going to look to maximise his points and, therefore, his worth to his team. He also has to satisfy sponsors etc. and so on. I understand why people don't like this kind of racing, but I think a more appropriate saying would be:

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Really? Please explain to me how WT points matter when there are at least as many spots for WT teams as there are teams who want to be WT.

Points didn't matter last transfer. They won't matter the upcoming one either.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Major ***.

If Nibali is trying to still win the Tour he still needs those seconds

If Nibali believes that he can win the Tour from 8th place and 8 minutes down, with all of Froome, Contador and Quintana minutes ahead, then he is as thick as condensed pig faeces.

He is not that thick and he does not believe he can win the Tour. He thinks he can put a bit of respectability on the margin and style of his defeat, no more. He knows the win is long gone and he knew it the first time he was dropped like a stone. He is competing for minor places, just as Gesink is.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Look, would you guys find it odd if a rider pulled to defend his 50th place in the GC? Then we're haggling over the price, as the quote goes.

You don't get points for 50th place.



People shouldn't blame Gesink, they should blame the system. Riders are now pretty much required to get WT points to get a new contract. We see guys getting bought in from all over the place to make up the difference so of course Gesink is going to look to maximise his points and, therefore, his worth to his team. He also has to satisfy sponsors etc. and so on. I understand why people don't like this kind of racing, but I think a more appropriate saying would be:

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Really? Please explain to me how WT points matter when there are at least as many spots for WT teams as there are teams who want to be WT.

Points didn't matter last transfer. They won't matter the upcoming one either.

Remind me again what assumption is the mother of?

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Look, would you guys find it odd if a rider pulled to defend his 50th place in the GC? Then we're haggling over the price, as the quote goes.

You don't get points for 50th place.



People shouldn't blame Gesink, they should blame the system. Riders are now pretty much required to get WT points to get a new contract. We see guys getting bought in from all over the place to make up the difference so of course Gesink is going to look to maximise his points and, therefore, his worth to his team. He also has to satisfy sponsors etc. and so on. I understand why people don't like this kind of racing, but I think a more appropriate saying would be:

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Really? Please explain to me how WT points matter when there are at least as many spots for WT teams as there are teams who want to be WT.

Points didn't matter last transfer. They won't matter the upcoming one either.

Remind me again what assumption is the mother of?

And how many of the riders' on the team points count? Every single one of them?

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

The only difference is that fans tend to sympathise more with the guy who is attacking. Nibali, a rider I generally like by the way, is a Tour winner, in fact a winner of all three GTs and he is attacking so as to move up in minor top 10 placings! That is, he is placing value on the exact thing that Gesink is getting slated for valuing and with far less justification.

He's a multi GT winner, whether he finishes 8th or 6th or whatever will make very little material difference to his career or his potential earnings. While for Gesink, who has never come close to winning a GT, it will make a very significant difference to his future prospects. Gesink would be a fool not to defend 7th spot. I don't like that cycling is set up in such a way that failing to defend a minor GC place in the Tour would by the height of stupidity, but it is set up that way.

Excellent post. I agree 100%.

If I was in Gesink's position, I would've done the same thing. The end result was worth the effort. Those guys are so far from victory that GC is the only battle they have going. That being said, I can understand why some wouldn't value a 7th place position as being meaningful.

 

[46&twoWheels]

if a seventh or a eight place (top 10) with 200 riders in the competition aren't meaningful it follows that roughly 190 riders are useless...let's make a tour where there are only 3-4 riders

.........useless is going from 150th to 149th,there's a big difference between 7th and 8th, It's a matter of personal pride
Both Gesink and Nibali are fighting for something. The value of that "something" is set by them