- Jun 7, 2010
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check the history of the sport and give me a reason why kittel would not be doping.gooner said:Some want to see ghosts everywhere.
since you won't be able to come up with any, i will, like benotti, take the liberty of assuming he dopes. if you wanna take an "i don't know" or "innocent until proven guilty" stance it would be great if you could back it up with some sort of arguments. good luck.
sniper said:
The problem with the clinic is not that they think riders dope, it is the stuff put forward as evidence of doping.
B69 put forward the idea that Kittel not racing was evidence of him 'prepping' for the Tour(except he was wrong as Kittel is racing)
So what were Contador, Froome and others doing at the Dauphine?? I guess they were not 'prepping' for the Tour.
If a rider riders quietly in Dauphine/Suisse and then comes good at the Tour, it will be used as evidence that they were 'prepping/withdrawing' at these races.
If a rider was good at the Dauphine/Suisse but poor at the Tour, it will be proof that they cleaned up/overdid the prepping for the Tour.
When every possibility is used as evidence of doping, there is not really much to discuss so it's a nonsense.
- May 26, 2010
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gooner said:Some want to see ghosts everywhere.
Yeah.
Lets see will Benotti take his comment back. Somehow I doubt it when his opinion is this.
Why don't we forget discussing facts and make statements of faith all the time.
Kittel destroyed everyone in the sprints in the giro, made them all look like stagiares.
Of course he's clean. I mean JV said the sport is clean, so did Brailsford and Lefevere and Riis.........
- Mar 25, 2013
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Benotti69 said:Kittel destroyed everyone in the sprints in the giro, made them all look like stagiares.
Of course he's clean. I mean JV said the sport is clean, so did Brailsford and Lefevere and Riis.........
Bouhanni and Swift in the first two flat stages.
You make it sound like he's talentless.
You're putting forward a strawman once again. No one is saying the sport is totally clean, but it's certainly not everyone dopes as your mantra goes. That's insulting to riders that are actually clean and you just come from a faith point of view without discussing the facts at hand, because the facts is what drives the debate if you actually read and listen to it.
One part where your argument is totally flawed is you going around saying doping is everywhere and the incentives and culture is too big, yet you told me on this forum that you would be a Scott Mercier figure who would refuse to dope. That's laughable(you're no Scott Mercier I can assure you) but nonetheless if you say you wouldn't dope in this current environment, why then don't you leave any possibility whatsoever for the riders of today?
- May 26, 2010
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gooner said:Bouhanni and Swift in the first two flat stages.
You make it sound like he's talentless.
You're putting forward a strawman once again. No one is saying the sport is totally clean, but it's certainly not everyone dopes as your mantra goes. That's insulting to riders that are actually clean and you just come from a faith point of view without discussing the facts at hand, because the facts is what drives the debate if you actually read and listen to it.
I dont believe a team is ging to hire riders that dont dope. Why hire a guy who wants to ride clean when you could hire a Froome, Rogers, Kloden! It doesnt make sense. Show me a DS/Owner who believes in clean cycling becuase they were clean and they know it can be done clean.
gooner said:
Scott Mercier left the sport like Bassons, Kimmage and others who refused to dope. When I look at Kittel, i see a doper.
Show me why a team wouldn;t dope when we see how easy the system is manipulated, how few tests there are and how the BP is only a guide to blood levels.
The anti doping is a joke so why would a team want a clean rider when they can get much more performance out of dopers.
- Feb 10, 2010
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gooner said:
This is a good mental exercise. Let's all agree to this.
Problem #1 is the federation enables doping.
Problem #2 is the federation does not process positives.
The federation is not a fair dealer, has been shown to not be a fair dealer, has an anti-doping system that is pure theater, and to this day continues to provide marginal gains to some riders.
The result is during their careers, no one can reliably and confidently sort riders clean/suspicious/dirty. And that might not work out so well sometimes.
Benotti69 said:
I pointed this out before but Kimmage didn't leave the sport because of doping. He left because he wasn't good enough and realised that even with dope, he would have still been average. He couldn't handle being average and once he realised he had the option of journalism, he quit. You think if Kimmage had the talent level of guys like LeMond, Bauer, Delion, Mottet, he would have quit the sport because of doping??
- May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
Your obsession with Kimmage is unhealthy and it is always viewing Kimmage in the negative. Methinks you hate Kimmage for exposing the rotten underbelly of the sport and you cannot forgive him. Dont shoot the messenger.
You know if Kimmage went further down the road of doping, there was no reason why he couldn't have had a decent career. It is my understanding that he didn't want to dope to have a career. He only doped for a couple of after tour crits.
I never read or heard Kimmage say it was because he would've been average on dope.
It was my understanding that he did leave cycling because the Sunday Tribune offered him a job, because Vincent Browne in the beginning didn't believe Kimmage was writing the diaries, he thought it was Walsh and when Walsh told Browne it was Kimmage he thought Walsh was lying so Browne interviewed Kimmage and then offered him a job when he finished his career in cycling.
Back to Kittel 'enfant blood spinner terribile'. Kittel had no problem spinning blood, why cheat on a monday and not the rest of the week?
This reinforces what i believe about the culture of doping
http://www.biscuittinmedia.com/alejandro-marque-cortisone-confusion-tour-of-portugal-2013/
- Mar 25, 2013
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Netserk said:
And a quite a bit behind the big three.
The way Benotti talked about him hammering the sprints in the Giro, you would have thought he was up against Cavendish and/or Greipel and finished the entire race.
If guys think Kittel beating Bouhanni and Swift is suspicious, off with them. It's hyperbole.
Benotti69 said:
Then clearly you have never read Rough Ride. Read the section about the period after the Giro 89 when he said everything was rosy but he didn't want it anymore. Kimmage also realised early on that a team could hire a load of Frenchmen as talented as him but teams were hoping for another Kelly or Roche. Rough Ride has been in my library for over 20 years so I know it quite well thank you very much.
Kimmage had the journalism offer before he quit the sport but Roche had also told Kimmage that he would be a part of the Roche baggage for as long as he wanted. Kimmage could have had another few years as a pro if he so wished. I don't hate Kimmage at all, he has done some very good stuff but some things he has done have left me bemused as well. He is not the amazing guy he is made out to be and there is plenty of hypocrisy there as well.
I also cannot believe you said Kimmage only doped for a few crits and then ask of Kittel "why cheat on a Monday and not the rest of the week". In the same freaking post
Then you post about the Vuelta 2013 winner. So what. That is like me claiming that everyone cheats on their partner and then everytime it happens, using it as proof to back my claims. As I keep saying a broken clock is still right twice a day.
- May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:<well done you for reading it and admitting through gritted teeth some admiration for Kimmage>
I also cannot believe you said Kimmage only doped for a few crits and then ask of Kittel "why cheat on a Monday and not the rest of the week". In the same freaking post
In case you didn't notice, Kittel has yet to admit to doping on monday, Kimmage did and as for the few crits, they are fixed events for stage winners or big name rider. Spin it whatever way you want.
pmcg76 said:
The attitude is what is pervasive in the article. He doesn;t see anything wrong with it.
Maybe you are a member of a swingers club but the sport of cycling denies it is a member so when someones talks to the media that cheating on their partner is acceptable it reinforces the point I make about it being part of the culture and fabric of the sport.
But again you know better and can easily point to where the culture of doping was ended for the majority of the riders.
Benotti69 said:In case you didn't notice, Kittel has yet to admit to doping on monday, Kimmage did and as for the few crits, they are fixed events for stage winners or big name rider. Spin it whatever way you want.
The attitude is what is pervasive in the article. He doesn;t see anything wrong with it.
Maybe you are a member of a swingers club but the sport of cycling denies it is a member so when someones talks to the media that cheating on their partner is acceptable it reinforces the point I make about it being part of the culture and fabric of the sport.
But again you know better and can easily point to where the culture of doping was ended for the majority of the riders.
As I said before there is no point in trying to show you anything as it will be instantly dismissed. Someone with an entrenched position is not going to change their mind regardless of what is put in front of them.
I don't need to praise Kimmage through gritted teeth. I have praised him when I felt it was warranted and criticised when applicable. It is ironic that the riders I believe in are the same riders Kimmage also seems to believe in.
That is the problem with too many posters here. Just because I don't have a pre-set fixed position towards people or things, you guys feel the need to try and pigeon hole people, Kimmage hater, LeMond hater, SKY fan, JV fan. Anyone who really knows my history here would probably know I have both defended and criticised many of the prominent clinic subjects of division(well maybe not SKY). It's called being open minded, an idea many seem to struggle with here.
It seems that you are expected to pick a side and stick with it.
To bring it back to the thread subject, Giant-Shimano have been one of the most winning teams this year. Their management and support staff are made up of mostly people who have come from outside pro-cycling(exception Kemna & Engels). They recruit mostly young riders and develop them rather than make big name signings. If people were looking for a team doing things the correct way, they could do worse than look at this team but yes I know they are all doped of course
- May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
yet your mind appears to be closed to the fact that the sport did not get cleanEr that so called clean riders can win big races! This sport had (and imo still has) a doping culture that is so ingrained that it would take a momunental change to break that culture yet you cannot point to where, how or why those who so benefitted form the doping and believing doping would change?
We are led to believe that when Armstrong left the peloton collectively heaved a huge sigh of relief and said hurrah no more doping now Lance is gone. All the 'reason decision' riders claim to have stopped doping after USPS and yet why would they?
It all comes back to looking at the sport, those who are in it and how they adapted to changes after Festina and Puerto and those guys didn't stop doping for long if at all. Most of those guys are still in the sport as riders like Voight or working for teams in some capacity whether as a DS or coach or working for races.
So you claim to have an open mind to what is going on it the sport yet discount the idea that the culture has not changed as that change had to come under McQuaid's watch and we know how anti doping he was!
Yes i bang the drum on the culture of doping not having changed, merely the methodology, which has always been the case when new products come to black markets.
Again, i dont see why a team would hire a guy who wont be a 'team' player as the clean guy might rat out other riders so doping is across the board.
Giant Shimano hired few from inside cycling that we know off and i say that because teams have learnt that the sport is suffering hugely from the doping culture that is now perceived to be all pervasive and Sky set out with a similar set of ideals. Giant Shimano have faired better not to have hired directly from inside cycling, but it is not like other sports doctors or scientists are less likely to be clean.
Belkin released a press release about loss of sponsor and one of the lines was
I have not seen many defending Belkin as the clean team due to them being transparent and accessible. But the spin is there.
No the sport has not cleaned up. All WT have programs in all shape and forms. When the 'moment' arrives that doping is no longer a risk worth taking i think we will see it. But until then guys will be looking at the Hincapies, CVdV, Levi's, Barry's and all the other guys who got to keep their ill gotten gains and think well if i get caught, as unlikely as that is, if they are smart they'll have done well from it.
I mean Riis just made 6 million and he even admitted his doping, FFS.
Benotti69 said:
So why did Garmin hire Phil Gaimon?
I am not closed to the idea of doping still being widespread yet apart from Di Luca, not a single person in the last 5 years has come forward and said things are as bad as they were. Plenty of people say things have improved and that is coming from clean riders within the culture, so I tend to go with what they have to say rather than just assume I know best. I am not talking guys spouting stuff publically but rather private conversations I have had with riders.
I can point and have(as have others) to many things that would suggest that the culture has changed somewhat but you constantly dismiss them all as BS so what is the point in going through them all again. You know what they are but just ignore them.
One is the fact that young riders are coming through much more quickly now, something that was more common in the pre EPO days. Now even in the peak EPO years, teams were in general not doping their Neo-Pros, even at teams like Festina and Postal and that is on record from various sources.
So if doping has gone much more private(source Di Luca), why are young guys like Pinot, Barguill, Yates and many more showing up so early when there is no longer the same exposure to doping there once was for a neo-pro?
- May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
Why JV does stuff, who knows. WhyTF did he hire Dekker? Why he did he keep quiet about Heskedal's doping till it was leaked by Rasmussen? JV plays both sides of the fence and does it with lots of joy.
Gaimon was a poor guy who wrote a book about cycling on 10bucks a day. That kind of thing gets JV juice's flowing.
pmcg76 said:
Why would anyone come forward and say things are still bad? Ashenden said there are pockets of doping as bad as the epo era, the others may not be as bad as that era but riders are not competing on bread and water. I used to see Di Luca training when i lived in Italy, some days he would be on his own other times with 2 or 3 other times in a small group of 10. My guess is Di Luca knows what the Italian teams are doing through his network of former team mates. I have not heard too many bad mouthing Di Luca.
pmcg76 said:
Cheating is cheating. I dont give the peloton a pass because they are not EPOing their veins off! This is a hard sport and the culture and traditions of doping dont get cast aside easily. Plenty in the past have said it is impossible to ride GTs without dope. Considering speeds have constantly risen and it is not all down to technology.
pmcg76 said:
I repeat, that i dont care whether a rider is using EPO or lying to get a TUE for steroids. That is cheating. It is not acceptable to me. It seems half the peloton has asthma. Of course they do
that is more acceptable lying about their health. Finishing bottles is cheating in my opinion. The culture is to cheat, which means doping. That guys are only cheating a little is still crossing that line. If you are going to cross the line, it doesn't matter whether you steel 1 cent or a million euro, you stole. End of. So the peloton is not on Riis/Pantani levels of EPO, but they are doping. It is part of the fabric.pmcg76 said:
One thing that struck me about Hesjedal's Giro win was that Garmin didn't go massive on THIS IS HOW YOU WIN A GT CLEAN! and then back it up with as much information to show everyone the sport is in position that riders can win clean, but we fond out that Hesjedal's blood levels rose in the 3rd week, which JV dismissed as machine calibration error. Convenient and no other tests done to make sure that is was an error. This also happened with Wiggins 2009 TdF blood results, 3rd week rise again machine calibration error. Nothing to back up how oftent he machine facks up test results.
Ya see in this sport loads talk about things being different, but you have to sift through the talk to see if there is any substance behind it all and i dont see any substance. The so called ex dopers still win, there is little to no transparency, teams lie and get caught then come up with stupid non believable excuses and then when dopers are caught the nice guys liek O'Grady, Schleck, Ballans and others doping is ignored by the peloton.
If doping was not the cool thing, then the sport would admonish the likes of Schleck, Ballan and O'Grady to name 3 big names never mind Bertie and Piti.
Why is no one slamming Froome for posting a photo f himself with Vino an unrepentant doper?
Doping is still a major part of the sport from microdosing, hgh, steroids, and now aicar, GW1516, TB500 and who knows what else till the police bust another ring.
Remember the police/customs have been the most effective at catching doping. The Federation failed and it only recently got a new president and he seems about as anti doping as his predecessors.
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