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Giant v Colnago

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Jun 23, 2009
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I had to edit my previous post. I do not believe there is anything superior to Italian stuff other than the price tag. I agree with kiwirider. I am sure his veloce stuff is just as good, if not better, as record from a few years ago.

If people want to buy expensive stuff, good for them. Just don`t pretend it is better. It is just disproportionally lighter in regards to your wallet.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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kiwirider said:
The other big advantage of Campag is the really easy availability of spare parts. A friend of mine has to completely replace her D/A STI because (according to her LBS) the change ratchet is worn out - after 1 year of really light use! By contrast, on my old 9 speed Record Ergo, I cracked the ratchet after about six years of riding. All I had to do was replace the ratchet. NZ$800 for Shimano or NZ$40 for Campag ... You choose ... :)

QUOTE]

I bought alot of used Campy from a pro team that folded. I figured i would need alot of spare parts, the thing is nothing ever wore out so i was able to put together 6 bikes with all my spare parts.
The oldest ergo i have has about 45000 miles on it and still works fine with just lubrication. It has a much lighter feel but is very quiet, I love using it on group rides because no one ever hears me shift...

About twenty years ago i was at a race in a downtown area and this homeless guy comes up to me while i am getting ready and says
"Can i see your bike? I used to race"
Well what could i do? so i continued to get ready and then he starts giving me crap for putting Japanese parts on a fine italian bike. I countered tthat they were in fact, Suntour Superbe so they were pretty nice.
He turns to me and says
"You should upgrade to Campy as soon as possible, remember Campy breaks in while others just break"

It really turned out to be true:)
 
embankmentlb said:
I own several full Campy equipped bikes, the newest being 1986. Campagnolo was indeed a great example of durability in that era. However the 80's proved to be their Achilles heel because the company lacked vision & inventiveness. Objectively, I cannot say that todays Campy is as good as ether Sram & Shimano.

In terms of function of the left and right lever, number of gears selected, trim for the front derailleur, Ergonomics and servicability, Campagnolo is clearly superior. Sram has poor bearings(BB mostly, even tho ceramic, very short life), very poor front der action, a distant third in spite of red frogs and price. Shimano 7900 seems very good with excellent brakes, front derailleur but one less gear selection number for the right lever( 2 vice previous 3). $700 for a forged crank with a $400 big chainring seems a little extreme. No fan of ceramic or titanium but comparable price to SuperRecord, don't see why.

All 3 work and how the lever feels in your hand should be the decision maker. I prefer Campagnolo, Shimano is quite nice. I would never buy Sram.
 
SlantParallelogram said:
I think that when Campy introduced the C Record group with the sky high pricing and the mirror-like finish on everything, they really started to lose their way.

That continued with their ill-fated mountain bike group.

I think their new stuff is really nice. I have always liked Ergo Power the best of the integrated braking/shifting systems. I admit their stuff is insanely overpriced.

Campy has always had the slickest, smoothest, free-est spinning bearings. The only exception might be Phil Wood stuff, maybe.

I don't see how people can overlook Shimano being a fishing reel company. I don't want fishing equipment on my bike.

Sram isn't bad anymore. Anybody remember GripShift and the Sampson pedal? Neither of those was anything to brag about.

Campy is cheaper than shimano now for parts of the same performance, mass, and better durability, and has been competitive for a long time. (super record aside). Shimano started as a bike parts maker and got into fishing equipment later. Campy also made Mag wheels for cars and wine openers. Maybe you should catch and release your ignorance ;) .
 
Jun 15, 2009
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I am glad someone beat Campagnolo at their own game. After all we could all still be riding around with limited gearing ranges, friction shifting & brakes that don't stop. If adding blue stones & carbon fiber decals is your idea of improving the product it's time someone else with real innovations takes over.
 
Black Dog said:
Campy is cheaper than shimano now for parts of the same performance, mass, and better durability, and has been competitive for a long time. (super record aside). Shimano started as a bike parts maker and got into fishing equipment later. .

I am only comparing the prices of the top of the line Campy group to the prices of the top of the line groups from the others. Before the introduction of Super Record, even the standard Record pricing was above the pricing of the top of the line group from other companies.

So what if Shimano started building bike stuff first. It only took a little over ten years for them to get into fishing equipment. The fishing stuff is still half of their business. I stand by my comments about not wanting fishing equipment on my bike. Plus fishing is totally lame.

Car wheels are totally cool.

I am indifferent on corkscrews.

What ignorance? Ignorance of you being a jerk? :D
 
Black Dog said:
Campy is cheaper than shimano now for parts of the same performance, mass, and better durability, and has been competitive for a long time. (super record aside). Shimano started as a bike parts maker and got into fishing equipment later. Campy also made Mag wheels for cars and wine openers. Maybe you should catch and release your ignorance ;) .

Campy started the ball rolling on insanely high prices with the C-Record group. Sure the Campy stuff costs about the same as the top groups from the other companies now. That is only because the other companies have caught up in the insanely high price game. They said, "If Campy can sell their stuff for insane prices, then so can we."

Anyway, I still think Campy builds the best stuff.

So what if Shimano started out building bike stuff. It only took them 10 or 15 years to start the fishing business, and that is still half of their business today. Fishing is totally lame. I don't want anything remotely fishing related on my bike.

Car wheels on the other hand are totally cool. Corkscrews can start a party, so those are cool too.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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embankmentlb said:
I am glad someone beat Campagnolo at their own game. After all we could all still be riding around with limited gearing ranges, friction shifting & brakes that don't stop. If adding blue stones & carbon fiber decals is your idea of improving the product it's time someone else with real innovations takes over.

You mean like someone who builds electronic actuation road groupsets (the ultimate example of a solution looking for a problem) or 10 speed mountain bike gruppos that cost the earth and give you the same weight and gear ranges of current 9 speed gruppos? Yep, I'm keen for them to take the helm and take the bike industry boldly where no one needs to go ... I mean "to boldly go where no man has gone before" ... :rolleyes:
 
Jun 15, 2009
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The electronic groupo seems to be working very well for those who feel they need it. I would call it a huge success. The possibilities are endless. Just a matter of time before C has their own "working" version. They tried to copy everything else S perfected be it with only limited success in some cases.
Cassette free hubs
Ramped cassettes
Working index shifting
Duel pivot brakes
Brifters
The mountain bike group
Delta actuated brakes
 
Jun 16, 2009
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kiwirider said:
You mean like someone who builds electronic actuation road groupsets (the ultimate example of a solution looking for a problem) or 10 speed mountain bike gruppos that cost the earth and give you the same weight and gear ranges of current 9 speed gruppos? Yep, I'm keen for them to take the helm and take the bike industry boldly where no one needs to go ... I mean "to boldly go where no man has gone before" ... :rolleyes:

Are you talking about Mavic ZAP???

:D
 
Jun 16, 2009
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embankmentlb said:
The electronic groupo seems to be working very well for those who feel they need it. I would call it a huge success. The possibilities are endless. Just a matter of time before C has their own "working" version. They tried to copy everything else S perfected be it with only limited success in some cases.
Cassette free hubs
Ramped cassettes
Working index shifting
Duel pivot brakes
Brifters
The mountain bike group
Delta actuated brakes
Really? A system that only allows you to make a one gear change at a time and so ends up taking longer to shift multiple gears than standard shifting is an "huge success"? Hmmm, well considering the feedback on 7900 DuraAce - you know, the one where Shimano has copied the hidden cable routing that Campag and SRAM both perfected on their first release of integrated levers - and how most users of that (and mechanics) think it's a huge step backwards from 7800, then perhaps Di2 is a "success".

Oh, and a couple of points ... Suntour actually developed and perfected indexed shifting ... and those delta brakes that you used to see on a number of Shimano equipped TT bikes - they're also actually Suntour brakes ... oh, while we're on that same theme, Suntour developed the first MTB gruppos (check out early Specializeds for their first customers) and they led the field in MTB gruppos for a number of years before Shimano put in an appearance ...

And can someone explain the benefits of dual pivot brakes to me? I never had problems with the old version side pulls ... jeez, I even don't have any problems with canti's on my 'cross bike when I use it on the road! All dual pivots seem to have done is added more parts to fiddle with ...

I'm not denying that Shimano have had some good ideas and that in some instances Campag have copied their ideas - just as Shimano decided to copy 9 and 10 speed and also appear to have modelled the look of the last couple of runs of cranksets on C-Record and Mavic's cranks from the 1980's (can't remember the model name). And from my own experience, they've turned out a fair list of bad products too - ones that I've had the misfortune of using include XTR 970 front derailleurs, XTR rapid rise rear derailleurs, STI (road and dirt - each disappointed me in a number of ways) and their factory built wheels ...

I note in your original post that you seem to have stopped using Campag made later than 1986 ... 23 years is a long gap ... try opening your other eye and having a proper look at what's out there now ... :D
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Nothing wrong with Campy, pretty much all the manufacturers make great stuff now days. The way some people treat Tullio as a Jesus figure & Campagnolo as a religion i just find a bit strange.
 
kiwirider said:
Oh, and a couple of points ... Suntour actually developed and perfected indexed shifting ... and those delta brakes that you used to see on a number of Shimano equipped TT bikes - they're also actually Suntour brakes ... oh, while we're on that same theme, Suntour developed the first MTB gruppos (check out early Specializeds for their first customers) and they led the field in MTB gruppos for a number of years before Shimano put in an appearance ...

SunTour was the best and most innovative Japanese equipment company. The SunTour Superb and the later Superb Pro groups worked incredibly well.
:)

Shimano ran them out of business using Microsoft like tactics.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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The true story. Suntour & Campy both failed to see the benefits of index shifting. By 1987 Shimano had working & perfected index shifting on all its groups (Dura-Ace Ultegra 600 & 105). Suntour introduced their version of index shifting called accushift in 1987 but it was not perfected. Both shops & customers were unhappy. In 1988 almost all bikes sold had Shimano because it worked. Few wanted Accushift. Suntour's reputation was permanently soiled. Failure to read the market killed Suntour not questionable business tactics.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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embankmentlb said:
The true story. Suntour & Campy both failed to see the benefits of index shifting. By 1987 Shimano had working & perfected index shifting on all its groups (Dura-Ace Ultegra 600 & 105). Suntour introduced their version of index shifting called accushift in 1987 but it was not perfected. Both shops & customers were unhappy. In 1988 almost all bikes sold had Shimano because it worked. Few wanted Accushift. Suntour's reputation was permanently soiled. Failure to read the market killed Suntour not questionable business tactics.
If Shimano perfected indexing back then, it's a shame that they took their eye off the ball recently ... when I was doing duathlons in 2007 I was forced to use Shimano to get the bar end shifters on my aero bars (that is one area where Campag's pricing is out of wack - the price of their TT shifters is astronomical - more than a full set of Ergo levers!!!) ... under advice from my LBS (whose resident wrench was a national level mechanic) I used the D/A shifters on friction as they were a pig to keep tuned on index ...

Your account of Suntour's demise is also more than a little off beam too ... it wasn't about a lack of quality at all. And as someone who rode Suntour for a while back then (stopped when my bike got stolen and I set up a new one with Campag on it), I can assure you that their indexing worked brilliantly.

And I have to ask you if you see any irony in your comment:
The way some people treat Tullio as a Jesus figure & Campagnolo as a religion i just find a bit strange.
It's just that to me it seems that you can see no wrong in all things Shimano - and are at least as fanatical about Shimano as you accuse people of being about Campag ... Like I've said to other zealots on the forum, be careful where you point the finger, because there are three more pointing straight back at you ... :D
 
embankmentlb said:
Suntour & Campy both failed to see the benefits of index shifting. By 1987 Shimano had working & perfected index shifting on all its groups (Dura-Ace Ultegra 600 & 105).

What benefits? All the introduction of index shifting did was bring more Freds into cycling.

I would be equally happy using friction shifters on my downtube over shifters integrated into the brake levers. It would be way lighter.

If you don't think that Shimano used its larger size to push SunTour out of the market in a Microsoft like fashion then you are deluding yourself.

The one thing that Shimano did really well was advertise. Their advertising was all over, and the Freds and casual riders believed it.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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SlantParallelogram said:
SunTour was the best and most innovative Japanese equipment company. The SunTour Superb and the later Superb Pro groups worked incredibly well.
:)

Shimano ran them out of business using Microsoft like tactics.

I agree completely. When i built my first real racing bike a local Pro told me to go with Simplex shifters & a superb rear derailleur. It was so smooth & quiet, worked flawlessly. The functionality & finish of Superbe was better than anything Shimano had. But LBS were getting squeezed by Shimano.
It was a pity, I am not sure but I think Shimano also pressured Euro Asia because I was on a amateur team sponsored by Suntour and suddenly we couldn't get any parts and we went over to Euro Asia & they told us they couldn't get them either.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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to get back to the Giant vs Colnago argument
My team was offered some frames by Giant when they went to the compact design. I think it was 2000, anyway we couldn't believe how light the frames were and how responsive they were as well. The bikes were the lightest production bike of the time, even lighter than the titanium frames that cost thousands.
So the Giant rep tells us we will get a little better than the usual pro deal because they wanted exposure for the new design. Basically they just wanted to cover their costs.
Because they were drawing their own tubing, and using less material because of the compact design he said they had only about 50 dollars in materials in each frame. So with other costs he said we could have all we wanted for 125 dollars per frame. That would insure Giant didn't lose any money on them but we would still get a great deal.
You couldn't even get a tube set for that price.
I still have that frame and raced it up until a few years ago.
Unfortunately my steel Italian bikes have not faired so well, rusting from the inside out :(((
 

Bagster

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Jun 23, 2009
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LugHugger said:
pardon? outdated and overpriced? versus what? simply because they have 'traditional' round profile tubes does not mean that they have as much engineering as a made in china flavour of the month shaped carbon frame?

check Colnagos engineering credentials. They are the only ISO9002 certified company manufacturing their own frames to my knowledge. Ironically, Giant may also have this accreditation given the amount of frames that they make for other people.

Colnago Extreme Power / Cervelo S3 / Pinarello Prince all retail for within 5% of each other in the UK. All small, niche builders with a fair degree of success in the peloton and, more importantly to us privateers, with good longevity records.

Whether these frames are worth the extra cash for us mortals is a different question but please don't make sweeping generalisations!

Even more ironic is the fact that quite a number of the mid range Colnago's are made by Giant under licence. If you are ever in Taiwan you can get a tour through the factory. In the yard are containers of frames that Giant are making under licence, including Colnago. The Giant research area is bigger than most whole factories and I would be suprised if there are many other manufacturers that have frames as advanced. I think that Giant suffer from a bit of brand bigotry from the euro brigade And no, I don't ride a Giant! I ride a Cervelo and a Scott.
 

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Jun 23, 2009
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kiwirider said:
If Shimano perfected indexing back then, it's a shame that they took their eye off the ball recently ... when I was doing duathlons in 2007 I was forced to use Shimano to get the bar end shifters on my aero bars (that is one area where Campag's pricing is out of wack - the price of their TT shifters is astronomical - more than a full set of Ergo levers!!!) ... under advice from my LBS (whose resident wrench was a national level mechanic) I used the D/A shifters on friction as they were a pig to keep tuned on index ...

Your account of Suntour's demise is also more than a little off beam too ... it wasn't about a lack of quality at all. And as someone who rode Suntour for a while back then (stopped when my bike got stolen and I set up a new one with Campag on it), I can assure you that their indexing worked brilliantly.

And I have to ask you if you see any irony in your comment:
The way some people treat Tullio as a Jesus figure & Campagnolo as a religion i just find a bit strange.
It's just that to me it seems that you can see no wrong in all things Shimano - and are at least as fanatical about Shimano as you accuse people of being about Campag ... Like I've said to other zealots on the forum, be careful where you point the finger, because there are three more pointing straight back at you ... :D

Campy Record bar end shifters.$$$...Trademe rules!;)