• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Giant v Colnago

Page 4 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Jun 23, 2009
168
0
0
Visit site
Master50 said:
It is about artisan creation and craftsmanship along with a passionate sense of style and quality.
You need to be able to understand or maybe feel Ferrari, espresso, Italian bikes, Campagnolo, Pasta and food in general. It is a philosophy of quality and form are as important as function. The inclusion of Art as a function of engineering.
Italian bikes are Soul food. I don't feel Asian bikes so how can they be as good? I know intelectually that the differences cannot be measured but neither can we measure your soul.

I agree if you are talking about steel. There is a long tradition there. CF is a whole different material and philosophy imo.
 
Mar 11, 2009
258
0
0
Visit site
biker77 said:
Can someone explain why carbon fibre bike frames made in Italy are better than Asian frames?

Can someone explain why a Rolex is better than a Seiko? Or a Alfa Romeo is better than a Toyota or Ducati is better than a Honda? Or Steinway is better than a Yamaha or............................
 
Jun 23, 2009
168
0
0
Visit site
Pietro said:
Can someone explain why a Rolex is better than a Seiko? Or a Alfa Romeo is better than a Toyota or Ducati is better than a Honda? Or Steinway is better than a Yamaha or............................

In the case of Steinway, yes, there is a clear difference. I am not suggesting mass-produced beats craftsmanship at all.

Rolex and Seiko is an interesting example. Both tell the time, but one is a status symbol and the other is not.

I am asking the question why CF made in Italy is perceived as superior to the same grade of CF made in Asia. The craftsmanship in CF, imo, is in the engineering, not the construction. Does italian caad software have more soul than asian software?
 
May 12, 2009
207
0
0
Visit site
The key is "perception".

It's not at all clear that Ducatis are actually better than Hondas or Yamahas. Certainly the Japanese bikes have won plenty of championships. Ducatis cost more and are less common, which helps a "perception" that they are better.

Rolexes don't tell time any better than many less expensive watches. I can get a $80 Atomic/Solar Casio G-shock that tells time better, is more durable, and has more functions than any Rolex.

Many Italian bike makers have significant history in making really good steel frames that won lots of races. This has helped in the "perception" that anything these guys make is somehow better. Again, rarity and price also aid in that perception.

But there is little real data to say a CF Colnago, Pinarello or DeRosa is actually better than a nice Felt, Giant or Trek.
 
May 12, 2009
207
0
0
Visit site
Orbea frames look just as stylish and swoopy as Pinarellos. Project One Treks have just as many paint choices as Colnagos.
If you want soul, get something custom from anywhere. C40s and C50s are very nice, and I'd be happy to have one, but I certainly wouldn't agree that any production bike, Italian or otherwise, somehow has more "soul".
 
Jun 15, 2009
7
0
0
Visit site
I personally think that Asian Frames (Giant) is built better than European Frames. At least the Asian frames has better finish if compare to Eurpean Frames.

Most Asian Companies have lots of cash so they could buy the latest technology in producing CF frames. It is a quite big investment to built a CF Frames (mold, toolings, oven/heated vacuum chamber). If compare to Steel Frame or even Aluminum frame, the cost for low volume production is much much higher in production of CF Frame. Steel or Alum, you just need a mitter saw, jigs, and a good welder. For a hydroformed tubes, just need a simple hydraulic pump and cheap mold.

So, Asian Frames used the latest cutting edge Technology in building CF Frames, but European Frames builder used "passion" in building the CF Frames. Both can win Grand Tour.

I personally used Giant because I can only afford Giant. If I have more money, probably will buy Time or Willier..its a matter of preference :D
 
Mar 11, 2009
258
0
0
Visit site
Pietro said:
Can someone explain why a Rolex is better than a Seiko? Or a Alfa Romeo is better than a Toyota or Ducati is better than a Honda? Or Steinway is better than a Yamaha or............................

Now look up the definition of 'Rhetorical question'-

"A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply (ex: "Why me, Lord?")[1] Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to reflect on what the implied answer to the question must be. When a speaker states, "How much longer must our people endure this injustice?", no formal answer is expected. Rather, it is a device used by the speaker to assert or deny something."
 
Mar 10, 2009
1,295
0
0
Visit site
Pietro said:
Now look up the definition of 'Rhetorical question'-

"A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply (ex: "Why me, Lord?")[1] Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to reflect on what the implied answer to the question must be. When a speaker states, "How much longer must our people endure this injustice?", no formal answer is expected. Rather, it is a device used by the speaker to assert or deny something."

It is not a rhetorical question but the answer is definable like love is. Most of this is explainable and maybe even quantifiable but it takes an artists mind to explain it and a technical mind defies the explanation. Much of what makes Made in Italy is about is artisan-ship. The ability to take a material and endow it with an artisans touch. Unlike pure art an artisan adds an artistic touch in a repeatable way. It is the ability of a Japanese sword maker to create a sword without doing any chemical analysis, without temperature gages and a closely controlled furnace using the latest technology.
Bike building in Italy has been an iterative process where the builders know things about bikes. They know balance and form they know what tube lengths combine to make a certain geometry. They have a strong sense of bicycle and even if they are working a new high tech material they know what quality must be created to make a good bike. So that is the art of it. We know that very good bikes are made in Taiwan but I like what Italy adds to the ride. Or maybe it is just romance.
 
RDV4ROUBAIX said:
Pros that are even sponsored by different mfgs, are riding Colnagos as personal bikes, nothing has changed really, just that Taiwan is the new Lombardia.

That's right. When it comes to their personal bikes, Pros will almost always choose a Colnago (or a DeRosa, Pinarello, etc) with Campy for their personal use.

Colnagos always have been the most sought after frames.

They probably always will be.

They made a huge error by shifting some of their production to the far east. There is no point to buying a Colnago if it was built in Taiwan anyway.

Cervelo? Are you crazy? There is no comparison.

With all that being said, I don't think that Colnagos are better than the other pro bikes. They simply are the sexiest and the coolest.
 
On the other hand, there are times when the Italian stuff really is better. Like when you are comparing Shimano (and their fishing reel technology) to Campagnolo (inventer of the derailluer and quick release).

The Campy stuff is way better. It is also infinitely cooler. Ask anybody who has been around bicycle racing for more than 20 years. Campy builds the best stuff.
 
Jun 15, 2009
30
0
0
Visit site
What exactly makes a bike or parts made in Italy better than those made in Taiwan or Japan? It's all a bunch of emotionally based bs. A last ditch effort at elitism. Like the Campy Only crowd or Trekkies, what a weird bunch. The great thing is that father time is gradually solving this problem.
 
Jun 16, 2009
346
0
0
Visit site
biker77 said:
Can we all agree on the following?

"There is an intangible quality to Italian made racing frames that will never be surpassed. There is a flair and style that no other nation can match. Technology has progressed to the point where carbon fibre frames from anywhere in the world can be equal in a strictly technical sense."

Sorry, but no, we can't.

I used to own Bianchi frames - I'd always loved Bianchi since the first time I saw an old steel, celeste frame. Sadly, after riding two top level alloy frames (XL EV2 - when they were the top frame from Bianchi's Reparto Corse) and having both of them snap on me due to poor workmanship, the allure that the brand had all but disappeared. This was about the time that the Italian frame builders were really struggling to get their head (or should that be welding gear??) around some of the newer alloy tubesets - and about the same time that 31.8 bars raised their ugly head for reasons of similar lack of ability to work the metals amongst the Italian manufacturers ...

The final nail in the coffin was when I was still looking hopefully to a new Bianchi after the second frame snapped (I know, slow learner ...) and got shown a frame at my LBS that a customer had dropped in for building up. (I can't remember the model name, but it was the then current top frame - also built in Italy.) The headset cups weren't aligned, the weld between the head and top tube had a gap where they didn't meet by about 4mm, the seat tube-seat stay welds were horrible and the paint job was terrible.

While I know that the point of the post I'm replying to is "intangible quality" - part of that comes from the physical quality of the product ... and sorry, but if these Italian built Bianchis that I've had experience with are anything to go by, then your argument holds as much water as seive ...

BTW - before someone bags me as being anti-Italian in all things bike ... I am a lifelong Campag fan. That is one Italian company who I do think does their work really well and (save for the embarrassing MTB gruppo incident in the early 1990's) turns out products that far surpass their competitors ....
 
kiwirider said:
BTW - before someone bags me as being anti-Italian in all things bike ... I am a lifelong Campag fan. That is one Italian company who I do think does their work really well and (save for the embarrassing MTB gruppo incident in the early 1990's) turns out products that far surpass their competitors ....

That's right, Campy has always built the best stuff. :)

As far as the best Japanese stuff, it was SunTour Superb Pro by far. That group was/is far better than the stuff from the fishing reel company.
 
kiwirider said:
BTW - before someone bags me as being anti-Italian in all things bike ... I am a lifelong Campag fan. That is one Italian company who I do think does their work really well and (save for the embarrassing MTB gruppo incident in the early 1990's) turns out products that far surpass their competitors ....

That's right, Campy has always built the best stuff. :)
 
Jun 15, 2009
30
0
0
Visit site
I own several full Campy equipped bikes, the newest being 1986. Campagnolo was indeed a great example of durability in that era. However the 80's proved to be their Achilles heel because the company lacked vision & inventiveness. Objectively, I cannot say that todays Campy is as good as ether Sram & Shimano.
 
I think that when Campy introduced the C Record group with the sky high pricing and the mirror-like finish on everything, they really started to lose their way.

That continued with their ill-fated mountain bike group.

I think their new stuff is really nice. I have always liked Ergo Power the best of the integrated braking/shifting systems. I admit their stuff is insanely overpriced.

Campy has always had the slickest, smoothest, free-est spinning bearings. The only exception might be Phil Wood stuff, maybe.

I don't see how people can overlook Shimano being a fishing reel company. I don't want fishing equipment on my bike.

Sram isn't bad anymore. Anybody remember GripShift and the Sampson pedal? Neither of those was anything to brag about.
 
Jun 16, 2009
346
0
0
Visit site
SlantParallelogram said:
I admit their stuff is insanely overpriced.

I don't see how people can overlook Shimano being a fishing reel company. I don't want fishing equipment on my bike.

Sram isn't bad anymore. Anybody remember GripShift and the Sampson pedal? Neither of those was anything to brag about.
Not sure about pricing in your part of the world, but where I buy from Campag is either similarly priced or cheaper than SRAM and Shimano. I recently upgraded my cross bike - came with Tiagra shifting - and ended up going to Campag Veloce because it gave me a similar weight to Dura Ace (mainly cos of the overly heavy Shimano levers) and slightly heavier than the SRAM gruppos for somewhere between half and two thirds of the price of either option.

As for whether it works better or not - hard to say because some people like the lightness of the Shimano shifting, whereas others (me included) prefer the heavier shifting of Campag. I will say tho - the Veloce shifts better than the Record from a couple of years back that is on my roadie ...

The other big advantage of Campag is the really easy availability of spare parts. A friend of mine has to completely replace her D/A STI because (according to her LBS) the change ratchet is worn out - after 1 year of really light use! By contrast, on my old 9 speed Record Ergo, I cracked the ratchet after about six years of riding. All I had to do was replace the ratchet. NZ$800 for Shimano or NZ$40 for Campag ... You choose ... :)

And as for your comments about Grip Shift - what's wrong with it?? My first Cannondale MTB came with GripShift Plasma which worked really well. When I finally got sick of springs going on XTR rear derailleurs and changed to X.0 there was no question that I was going to do anything other than go with Grip Shift. I am still running it now - so combined that's 10 years of awesome shifting performance! My biggest fear with the stuff is that SRAM will one day take it out of their product range and I'll be forced onto those horrible paddle shifters ... :confused:
 
Mar 10, 2009
1,295
0
0
Visit site
kiwirider said:
Sorry, but no, we can't.

I used to own Bianchi frames - I'd always loved Bianchi since the first time I saw an old steel, celeste frame. Sadly, after riding two top level alloy frames (XL EV2 - when they were the top frame from Bianchi's Reparto Corse) and having both of them snap on me due to poor workmanship, the allure that the brand had all but disappeared. This was about the time that the Italian frame builders were really struggling to get their head (or should that be welding gear??) around some of the newer alloy tubesets - and about the same time that 31.8 bars raised their ugly head for reasons of similar lack of ability to work the metals amongst the Italian manufacturers ...

The final nail in the coffin was when I was still looking hopefully to a new Bianchi after the second frame snapped (I know, slow learner ...) and got shown a frame at my LBS that a customer had dropped in for building up. (I can't remember the model name, but it was the then current top frame - also built in Italy.) The headset cups weren't aligned, the weld between the head and top tube had a gap where they didn't meet by about 4mm, the seat tube-seat stay welds were horrible and the paint job was terrible.

While I know that the point of the post I'm replying to is "intangible quality" - part of that comes from the physical quality of the product ... and sorry, but if these Italian built Bianchis that I've had experience with are anything to go by, then your argument holds as much water as seive ...

BTW - before someone bags me as being anti-Italian in all things bike ... I am a lifelong Campag fan. That is one Italian company who I do think does their work really well and (save for the embarrassing MTB gruppo incident in the early 1990's) turns out products that far surpass their competitors ....

Bianchi builds bikes under Pietro's model I think. Lots of sub contractors welding away. I loved the Bianchis of the 80's with their black chrome forks and their Japanese built bikes.
 
Mar 10, 2009
1,295
0
0
Visit site
embankmentlb said:
You have selective memory.

EGR peddle
Syncro
Syncro II
Delta Brakes
Cobalto Brakes

EGR pedals were very well made and weighed a lot. Never blow out of them and often they were so hard to get out of that you had to learn to track stand. Great Track pedals.
Synchro 1 and 2 taught you how to friction shift correctly.
Delta Brakes. Beautiful speed adjustors.
Cobalto Brakes were Nuevo or Super Record with blue jeweled brake bolt cap. and also more like speed control devices since all brakes of the day (OK not the Dura Ace ones) were more like speed adjustors than effective brakes.