Giro d'Italia 2018 stage 6: Caltanissetta - Etna 164 km

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

"someone who could raise the standard of a race and force a selection between the contenders and the also rans.

In the peloton today I think riders like Landa, Quintana, Nibali, Valverde, Froome can do that as well."

How on earth does that list include Valverde - and not Dumoulin?!

Because Valverde can drop people on high mountains, hills and anything in between, he can force selections where only the very best can follow. Dumoulin is the best TTist in the world; he wins stage races by gaining minutes in the TT, but he rarely forces selections in the other stages. He generally rides to power and responds to attacks when necessary.

If Dumoulin 'can't drop people on high mountains' then I'm pretty sure Valverde hasn't 'dropped people on high mountains' since like 2006.

 

[MartinGT]

Just rewatched the last 15km. I wonder if Chaves wasn't up front if Yates would have gone earlier and would they have made the Dawg struggle more. But then you could say Yates may not have had a free ride as long as he did I suppose.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

If you purely look at peak level or results or whatever, every GT field is gonna look weak compared to say 3 years ago, because the top GC rider from then bar Quintana are either declining (Nibali, Froome) or retired (Contador).

Those niches or whatever are either filled by declining or upcoming riders, the latter of which you don't realise until years later.

I mean, the battle for GC in the 2007 Tour was piss weak if you look at what those riders had achieved at that point.

Well that's kind of the point. It's both a weak GT field in general at the moment. And the most promising 'upcoming riders' with real x-factor (Bernal, Landa) are missing, as well as the best stage racers at the moment (Quintana, Nibali, Porte, Valverde).

Riders like Aru, Chaves and Pinot are decent. But you'd struggle to make a case that any of them will go on to become dominant GT superstars.

I don't think you can seriously with a straight face say that Porte, or Valverde for that matter, is a better GT rider than Dumoulin. Or, tbh, Nibali. And Lopez is here, and he's as exciting as Landa, if not more. Ofc, Lopez is also very disappointing, but that's neither here not there.

I would say Valverde is clearly a better GT rider than Dumoulin - unless there are 70km odd of TTing. Porte obviously isn't. But I did say best stage racers, rather than GT riders. I think having guys like Valverde and Porte in a GT - even if they may not last the distance, does significantly raise the overall quality. Because at their very best they are the best in the world on a given stage. And so there will be some stages where they will tear the race apart and help seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Instead you will have a situation where the chaff will probably remain in contention throughout the race. Which, back to the point I was making, is why a rider like Yates could make the podium.

In what world?! Bala capitulates when he gets to the high mountians - every single year. He isn't a gt rider, and isn't a threat in any grand tour he enters. The last time he was actually a threat was maybe the 2013 tour? But then he had that stage. At the 2016 Giro, he wasn't a threat. Not really. Ditto for all of 2015. And 2014. Maybe the last time he actually competed for the win (and by that I mean lead, not just 'follow within two minutes') was 2009. Dumoulin won last year, almost did the same in 2015, and now is in the best position for this. Valverde is literally the definition of a 'good but not that good' rider that you keep repeating lmao. Now if Valverde ever wins a gt again, that is a weak field.

And if that list isn't just gts, then Nibali shouldn't be on it. And Quintana has shown little since Blockhaus.

 

[Koronin]

As big of a fan of Valverde's as I am, he's not a great Grand Tour rider. He is a very good one (his podiums prove that). He struggles with altitude in the high mountains of France and Italy. He's never had a problem telling people that. Heck in 2016 at the Giro he made a comment about his struggles at high altitude and that there's nothing he can do about, esp at this point. He said something about being born, raised and always living at sea level not being conducive to dealing with high altitude. The thing is he is a threat and because he can out sprint the other climbers he DOES force selections because the other GC riders are trying to drop him, because they do not want to come to finish line with him knowing he can out sprint them. Now if you want to talk specifically about the Vuelta, then we have another story but that is because the climbs there are very well suited to Bala's natural abilities and the altitude isn't as high. He is very much a Spanish rider very well suited to the Spanish roads.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Will people stop entertaining DFA123

All he does is moan and talk rubbish

This fiield is great ...mostly because they are all very near each other on GC and contain the current Tour , Vuelta & Giro champions
Plus a bucket load of upand coming riders like MAL, Formolo, Haig, OOmen, Bennett...however they are performing or will perform

Nibali and Quintana were here last year and both were beaten and if Valverde was her he'd be beaten too

So who does that leave ..Landa ? Not yet won a GT and doubt he will
Porte ...well
Bernal, Soler ...too young and untested yet

So total and utter bollocks arguments as per

It's just dialogue and an attempt to ferret out his meaning and maybe help him see the light.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

:razz: I've just watched it. Excellent stage with marvellous win of both, Yates&Chaves.
And quite entertaining discusssion, as almost always if CF is in competition.
Before the stage we all could get to know that CF:
- looked so bad;
- will lose more time;
- will ship more time off to his rivals;
- will be back driven by Poels;
- will lose every chance to win Giro;
- wiil be anywhere near the Giro win;
- will be buried on Etna (edit: excellent, replied few times );
- will attack backward (it was supposed to be funny, yeah?);
- will bleed ( :surprised: );
- will lose minutes.
During the stage we got to know CF is preparing volcanic attack, is cooked, is going backward, is dropped by Dumo well I ever.
Atfer the stage we have some well known hate, as "The Dawg isn't not dead, blech.." and some interesting points as:
- I get the feeling we are going to see a third week where he smashes the TT and the mountains, and
- Froome was much more better than expected..........

So really excellent stage, so entertaining, with a lot of laugh.

Just a note: It ain't all about Froome, you know?

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Double post/post error.

 

[The Barb]

I love Chavito so was delighted he won but that was IDIOTIC for Yates to gift him the win when Yates is plainly the better GC hope. Part of me now hopes Yates loses the Giro by less than 4 seconds to punish such stupidity.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

"someone who could raise the standard of a race and force a selection between the contenders and the also rans.

In the peloton today I think riders like Landa, Quintana, Nibali, Valverde, Froome can do that as well."

How on earth does that list include Valverde - and not Dumoulin?!

Because Valverde can drop people on high mountains, hills and anything in between, he can force selections where only the very best can follow. Dumoulin is the best TTist in the world; he wins stage races by gaining minutes in the TT, but he rarely forces selections in the other stages. He generally rides to power and responds to attacks when necessary.

If Dumoulin 'can't drop people on high mountains' then I'm pretty sure Valverde hasn't 'dropped people on high mountains' since like 2006.

He has.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re:

Oh pinot. Please don't turn into a gerrans. That was dissapointing. He attacked right after, but when he had a gap with Bennet, Pozzivivo and Yates, he just sat on their wheels. Expected better of him.

I don't think he could do much more.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

:razz: I've just watched it. Excellent stage with marvellous win of both, Yates&Chaves.
And quite entertaining discusssion, as almost always if CF is in competition.
Before the stage we all could get to know that CF:
- looked so bad;
- will lose more time;
- will ship more time off to his rivals;
- will be back driven by Poels;
- will lose every chance to win Giro;
- wiil be anywhere near the Giro win;
- will be buried on Etna (edit: excellent, replied few times );
- will attack backward (it was supposed to be funny, yeah?);
- will bleed ( :surprised: );
- will lose minutes.
During the stage we got to know CF is preparing volcanic attack, is cooked, is going backward, is dropped by Dumo well I ever.
Atfer the stage we have some well known hate, as "The Dawg isn't not dead, blech.." and some interesting points as:
- I get the feeling we are going to see a third week where he smashes the TT and the mountains, and
- Froome was much more better than expected..........

So really excellent stage, so entertaining, with a lot of laugh.

No idea who you are talking about

I admit, my predictions were a bit off, over the last week
:lol:

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

If you purely look at peak level or results or whatever, every GT field is gonna look weak compared to say 3 years ago, because the top GC rider from then bar Quintana are either declining (Nibali, Froome) or retired (Contador).

Those niches or whatever are either filled by declining or upcoming riders, the latter of which you don't realise until years later.

I mean, the battle for GC in the 2007 Tour was piss weak if you look at what those riders had achieved at that point.

Well that's kind of the point. It's both a weak GT field in general at the moment. And the most promising 'upcoming riders' with real x-factor (Bernal, Landa) are missing, as well as the best stage racers at the moment (Quintana, Nibali, Porte, Valverde).

Riders like Aru, Chaves and Pinot are decent. But you'd struggle to make a case that any of them will go on to become dominant GT superstars.

I don't think you can seriously with a straight face say that Porte, or Valverde for that matter, is a better GT rider than Dumoulin. Or, tbh, Nibali. And Lopez is here, and he's as exciting as Landa, if not more. Ofc, Lopez is also very disappointing, but that's neither here not there.

I would say Valverde is clearly a better GT rider than Dumoulin - unless there are 70km odd of TTing. Porte obviously isn't. But I did say best stage racers, rather than GT riders. I think having guys like Valverde and Porte in a GT - even if they may not last the distance, does significantly raise the overall quality. Because at their very best they are the best in the world on a given stage. And so there will be some stages where they will tear the race apart and help seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Instead you will have a situation where the chaff will probably remain in contention throughout the race. Which, back to the point I was making, is why a rider like Yates could make the podium.

In what world?! Bala capitulates when he gets to the high mountians - every single year. He isn't a gt rider, and isn't a threat in any grand tour he enters. The last time he was actually a threat was maybe the 2013 tour? But then he had that stage. At the 2016 Giro, he wasn't a threat. Not really. Ditto for all of 2015. And 2014. Maybe the last time he actually competed for the win (and by that I mean lead, not just 'follow within two minutes') was 2009. Dumoulin won last year, almost did the same in 2015, and now is in the best position for this. Valverde is literally the definition of a 'good but not that good' rider that you keep repeating lmao. Now if Valverde ever wins a gt again, that is a weak field.

And if that list isn't just gts, then Nibali shouldn't be on it. And Quintana has shown little since Blockhaus.

He may not be a great grand tour rider but as "not a grand tour rider" surely he has been giving a pretty good impersonation of one, having made the podium of grand tours multiple times (at least once at all three) and actually won the Vuelta with a total of 8 grand tour podiums. If one makes the podium of grand tours mulitple times, I would say they could be called a pretty good grand tour rider. He obviously has wasted his time in this cycling gig.

 

[Angliru]

I love Chavito so was delighted he won but that was IDIOTIC for Yates to gift him the win when Yates is plainly the better GC hope. Part of me now hopes Yates loses the Giro by less than 4 seconds to punish such stupidity.

Just no. Emphatically.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

If you purely look at peak level or results or whatever, every GT field is gonna look weak compared to say 3 years ago, because the top GC rider from then bar Quintana are either declining (Nibali, Froome) or retired (Contador).

Those niches or whatever are either filled by declining or upcoming riders, the latter of which you don't realise until years later.

I mean, the battle for GC in the 2007 Tour was piss weak if you look at what those riders had achieved at that point.

Well that's kind of the point. It's both a weak GT field in general at the moment. And the most promising 'upcoming riders' with real x-factor (Bernal, Landa) are missing, as well as the best stage racers at the moment (Quintana, Nibali, Porte, Valverde).

Riders like Aru, Chaves and Pinot are decent. But you'd struggle to make a case that any of them will go on to become dominant GT superstars.

I don't think you can seriously with a straight face say that Porte, or Valverde for that matter, is a better GT rider than Dumoulin. Or, tbh, Nibali. And Lopez is here, and he's as exciting as Landa, if not more. Ofc, Lopez is also very disappointing, but that's neither here not there.

I would say Valverde is clearly a better GT rider than Dumoulin - unless there are 70km odd of TTing. Porte obviously isn't. But I did say best stage racers, rather than GT riders. I think having guys like Valverde and Porte in a GT - even if they may not last the distance, does significantly raise the overall quality. Because at their very best they are the best in the world on a given stage. And so there will be some stages where they will tear the race apart and help seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Instead you will have a situation where the chaff will probably remain in contention throughout the race. Which, back to the point I was making, is why a rider like Yates could make the podium.

In what world?! Bala capitulates when he gets to the high mountians - every single year. He isn't a gt rider, and isn't a threat in any grand tour he enters. The last time he was actually a threat was maybe the 2013 tour? But then he had that stage. At the 2016 Giro, he wasn't a threat. Not really. Ditto for all of 2015. And 2014. Maybe the last time he actually competed for the win (and by that I mean lead, not just 'follow within two minutes') was 2009. Dumoulin won last year, almost did the same in 2015, and now is in the best position for this. Valverde is literally the definition of a 'good but not that good' rider that you keep repeating lmao. Now if Valverde ever wins a gt again, that is a weak field.

And if that list isn't just gts, then Nibali shouldn't be on it. And Quintana has shown little since Blockhaus.

You do realize that couple of seconds and few motos on Agnello descend cost him the victory in that Giro 2016? He wasn't a threat you say? Well Nibali and Martinelli didn't share your opinion. You don't call a guy who won GT and podium another 7 a non-GT rider!
While I kind of agree that Dumoulin has a potential to became better GT rider than Bala, I must tell you that he isn't one as things stands right now.

 

[Netserk]

The gap was the same on the top of Agnello and the bottom of Risoul between Nibali and Valverde. He was simply dropped uphill. Lost 50'' on Agnello and 1'24'' on Risoul, same performance as Majka.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

The gap was the same on the top of Agnello and the bottom of Risoul between Nibali and Valverde. He was simply dropped uphill. Lost 50'' on Agnello and 1'24'' on Risoul, same performance as Majka.

Why does that matter? If he is making contact, he is most probably winning the Giro. We are talking marginals

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

If you purely look at peak level or results or whatever, every GT field is gonna look weak compared to say 3 years ago, because the top GC rider from then bar Quintana are either declining (Nibali, Froome) or retired (Contador).

Those niches or whatever are either filled by declining or upcoming riders, the latter of which you don't realise until years later.

I mean, the battle for GC in the 2007 Tour was piss weak if you look at what those riders had achieved at that point.

Well that's kind of the point. It's both a weak GT field in general at the moment. And the most promising 'upcoming riders' with real x-factor (Bernal, Landa) are missing, as well as the best stage racers at the moment (Quintana, Nibali, Porte, Valverde).

Riders like Aru, Chaves and Pinot are decent. But you'd struggle to make a case that any of them will go on to become dominant GT superstars.

I don't think you can seriously with a straight face say that Porte, or Valverde for that matter, is a better GT rider than Dumoulin. Or, tbh, Nibali. And Lopez is here, and he's as exciting as Landa, if not more. Ofc, Lopez is also very disappointing, but that's neither here not there.

I would say Valverde is clearly a better GT rider than Dumoulin - unless there are 70km odd of TTing. Porte obviously isn't. But I did say best stage racers, rather than GT riders. I think having guys like Valverde and Porte in a GT - even if they may not last the distance, does significantly raise the overall quality. Because at their very best they are the best in the world on a given stage. And so there will be some stages where they will tear the race apart and help seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Instead you will have a situation where the chaff will probably remain in contention throughout the race. Which, back to the point I was making, is why a rider like Yates could make the podium.

In what world?! Bala capitulates when he gets to the high mountians - every single year. He isn't a gt rider, and isn't a threat in any grand tour he enters. The last time he was actually a threat was maybe the 2013 tour? But then he had that stage. At the 2016 Giro, he wasn't a threat. Not really. Ditto for all of 2015. And 2014. Maybe the last time he actually competed for the win (and by that I mean lead, not just 'follow within two minutes') was 2009. Dumoulin won last year, almost did the same in 2015, and now is in the best position for this. Valverde is literally the definition of a 'good but not that good' rider that you keep repeating lmao. Now if Valverde ever wins a gt again, that is a weak field.

And if that list isn't just gts, then Nibali shouldn't be on it. And Quintana has shown little since Blockhaus.

Valverde is not a great GT rider, however he's on the level just below. Contador and Indurain would be great GT riders. However 8 GT podiums including a GT win is a pretty impressive number for a rider, esp one who is not a Grand Tour specialist. As far as a "not that good" rider, I think his palmares would disagree with you. well over 100 pro wins. He needs 6 more wins to have 100 wins for his current team and less than that to become Movistar's all-time win leader (Indurain currently has that title). What Valverde is, is an exceptionally consistent rider. Plus a rider that the rest of the climber desperately want to drop in the mountains otherwise they'll loose the stage/race to him at the finish line when he out sprints them. He's a rider who when he first turned pro the peloton thought was a sprinter.

 

[Netserk]

I don't share that opinion, and it's more than marginals. He lost a lot of time because he was too weak.

He was the 4th strongest GT rider in that edition, and it wasn't a good case for him being a better GT rider than Dumoulin (who knows how well he would have done without the saddle sore, before that he certainly wasn't worse than Valverde).

 

[The Barb]

I love Chavito so was delighted he won but that was IDIOTIC for Yates to gift him the win when Yates is plainly the better GC hope. Part of me now hopes Yates loses the Giro by less than 4 seconds to punish such stupidity.

Just no. Emphatically.

An excellent, well-reasoned retort. I stand corrected.

 

[tobydawq]

I love Chavito so was delighted he won but that was IDIOTIC for Yates to gift him the win when Yates is plainly the better GC hope. Part of me now hopes Yates loses the Giro by less than 4 seconds to punish such stupidity.

Just no. Emphatically.

An excellent, well-reasoned retort. I stand corrected.

He is by no means plainly the better GC hope, a GT has never been decided by less than four seconds, Chaves' presence in the front was a factor that helped Yates seem so superior to his rivals and it would just seem like such a douchy move to snatch that victory, which could backfire.

So it was by NO means idiotic.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

That is moronic. Yates in front, stronger rider, and better ride today, and they just threw away bonus seconds

Yates may quite reasonably think that a grateful Chaves is worth more than four seconds and a resentful Chaves should Simon find himself in with a real shot at GC victory in the last week.

My thoughts exactly

Yates has worked enough for Chaves in the past, time for Chaves to repay the favour regardless

 

[Netserk]

How is Yates plainly the better GC hope? He is clearly very good right now, granted. He is yet however to prove himself among the best in the hardest stages, ever. Neither the Tour last year nor the Vuelta the year before was close to what Chaves did in '16. If it wasn't because Yates clearly were in the form of his life, I'd have Chaves ahead of him. Right now I'd have them equal in the pecking order.

 

[DanielSong39]

Simon says championship!

He's certainly in good shape right now.

The other winner on the day is probably Tom Dumoulin as he did not lose time and Froome did not go nuclear.

Dennis did not lose as much time as I thought he would. If he finishes less than 30 minutes behind you'd have to consider it a success.

 

[Squire]

I love Chavito so was delighted he won but that was IDIOTIC for Yates to gift him the win when Yates is plainly the better GC hope. Part of me now hopes Yates loses the Giro by less than 4 seconds to punish such stupidity.

Just no. Emphatically.

An excellent, well-reasoned retort. I stand corrected.

He is by no means plainly the better GC hope, a GT has never been decided by less than four seconds, Chaves' presence in the front was a factor that helped Yates seem so superior to his rivals and it would just seem like such a douchy move to snatch that victory, which could backfire.

So it was by NO means idiotic.

It's more likely that Chaves will be the one needing those four extra seconds in the end.

 

[Tonton]

Tiralongo was right: small time gaps. No one won or lost Il Giro today. No winners or losers in the grand scheme of things.

1. Dennis didn't lose that much time. He can still aim at a top-10 (realistically more like a top 15) and keep his GT dreams alive.
2. 6 down and 14 to go (stage 21 is hugs and Prosecco), had Dumoulin been told that at this juncture, he would be one minute ahead of Froome, he would have signed it. He's playing it low key, didn't look really good today, but time is on his side. He'll BigMig everyone Luxembourg-style and when stage 16 is over, podium contenders will do most of the work for him, defending their spot...I disagree with Valv.Piti. Dumoulin is the champ, the man to beat, all these doubts only help him.
3. Dawg's fans are exuberant tonight...he didn't lose time. Excuse my French but WTF? The king of the ______/ didn't look too good. Where was the train after the steep, 5 km to go section?
4. Aru is the new Campionissimo. He's a GT winner. In ancient Mandarin, Fa-bio-a-roo means "the tiger waiting to pounce". Aru is to cycling what sunrise is to our day: Power and beauty. Fabio is not bad: he's biding his time...well, it has been two years of meditating, and the sensei looks like a shorter version of Steven Seagal, he's no Bruce Nibalee. He's very good, I'll let Netserk write the rest.
5. The yeast brothers can infect a race and leave many scratching themselves for dear life. Simon is riding really well, the question is: can he last?
6. The over-hyped Spanish speaking riders as I once called them: some posters (who so miss Alberto) already dismiss the field of this Giro: weak. Valverde's name comes up and that tells the story. Wrong Quintana, Bilbao not so athletic ...Nuf said. Chaves is a threat. Team tactics will be interesting...
7. Pozzovino attacks everyone, but has very little to show for. I like him and wish him the best.
8. Pinot struggled in the first part of the climb. Having Reichenbach in the break instead of pacing him may have been a mistake. He was good but not great, couldn't catch Simon, gets 4 seconds. Good, not great. But having Tibopino make it through week 1 unscathed is huge.

With so many tough stages coming up, it will come down to consistency over three weeks. That route is tough, and Etna is nothing compared to what's on the horizon. Great racing today. Gotta love il Giro.