Giro d'Italia Giro d'Italia 2025 stage 20: Verrès – Sestrière, 205 km

[Red Rick]

Fastest way to DS: start a podcast!

I shall not stoop so low.

Whenever I think I don't have self respect, I remind myself I have not yet started a podcast

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Calton Kirby should watch more South American football

Carlton Kirby once confidently announced at Itzulia that "the locals love to see a Spaniard win".

 

[Rou]

Apologies, but do you understand how cycling works?

I do. That's why I know that with negative racing and poor tactics the strongest rider can lose. Or you think that Carapaz and del Toro were not soft pedalling and Gee was at their level?

 

[fenns]

His top priority was dropping del Toro, which he couldn't do it. Riding with del Toro up to Yates was out of the question.

Carapaz could have limited Yates' gain - but when he saw his jumps weren't droppoing Del Toro he wasn't prepared effectively to help a rider who was not willing to share the burden.

Pride comes before a fall.

 

[ice&fire]

Why is that out of the question

Because Carapaz is not del Toro's teammate and has no obligation to prevent Yates from taking the GC lead. Carapaz has lost a 2nd place and del Toro has lost a win. Who has lost the most?

 

[JR1012]

Del Torro vs Carapaz reminds me of Vollering vs AVV at the tour.

 

[Red Rick]

I may be #1 on the internet in saying DS's are stupid, and I don't think for a second any DS will *** this one up.

Rick, please by reminded to never underestimate the deficiencies of cycling's directeur sportives every again.

 

[Rackham]

Calton Kirby should watch more South American football

I liked seeing the old guys strike back here. The propaganda surrounding young riders these days is just too much.

No idea what Derek Gee was doing on Finestre though. That man has watts and nothing up top.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Del Torro vs Carapaz reminds me of Vollering vs AVV at the tour.

The main difference is that Vollering was still able to win that race.

 

[Didinho]

What was Simon’s time on Finestre? New record?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Carapaz could have limited Yates' gain - but when he saw his jumps weren't droppoing Del Toro he wasn't prepared effectively to help a rider who was not willing to share the burden.

Pride comes before a fall.

Carapaz has won and podiumed a Grand Tour before. He's lost a GC bid in similar fashion due to score-settling (Movistar chasing him down in the 2020 Vuelta on La Covatilla). UAE banked on him caring a lot more about losing 2nd place than he did, and relied far too heavily on the preconceived notion that Carapaz would ride to protect his own position on the GC from Yates first, and worry about taking time on del Toro second.

 

[ice&fire]

Rick, please by reminded to never underestimate the deficiencies of cycling's directeur sportives every again.

Think of it: the Giro has been decided by the deficiencies of both the route and the directors

 

[Red Rick]

I liked seeing the old guys strike back here. The propaganda surrounding young riders these days is just too much.

No idea what Derek Gee was doing on Finestre though. That man has watts and nothing up top.

I guess he was just hoping someone would miraculously crack in his wheel because they *** up their pacing strategy on an hour long climb.

He did come to his senses on Sestriere.

 

[Brullnux]

I do. That's why I know that with negative racing and poor tactics the strongest rider can lose.

Are you also aware that after the Carapaz attack which took 20-30s off Yates, their heart rate was probably at 195bpm and they physically could not continue at the same pace? You can't compare someone riding tempo to what Carapaz was doing there, and then use that to say say that if Carapaz/IDT wanted to they could've dropped Yates. Just doesn't work like that.

Carapaz rode after the first attack and Yates clawed it back. Once Yates was let go, Carapaz attacked a couple of times, almost closed it, but didn't. Both Carapaz and Del Toro (more Richie) had periods of riding in the front at a steady pace, and the gap grew/stayed the same.

It is really, really difficult to know who was actually the 'strongest' on a climb like Finestre ridden like today. But I think at the very least, they were at a very similar level.

 

[Rollthedice]

So, Simon is doing a Zubeldia the whole Giro then has one of those days where he's the best climber in the world (pre Pog/Jonas era) rewriting his own Finestre legacy. But I don't think it would have been possible to win the Giro without the suicidal attack of Carapaz.

 

[Nerlo]

I cannot believe EF and UAE let Wout get 10mins at Finestre. Then you let Yates get away?

 

[kingjr]

Because Carapaz is not del Toro's teammate and has no obligation to prevent Yates from taking the GC lead. Carapaz has lost a 2nd place and del Toro has lost a win. Who has lost the most?

But why not just continue your effort and drop del Toro maybe a minute later? What does Yates have to with this? Carapaz wasn't strong enough, and neither was del Toro.

 

[Sciatic]

As a van der Poel fan, I've never cheered harder for van Aert than in the past 60 minutes... strange feeling, but a welcome one

Ha, great response!

 

[AnotherArmChair]

I agree totally with Carapaz ..he was the stongest climber in the race along with del Toro (shading del Toro on the longer climbs) ...Today Yates got such an advantage as del Toro wouldn't ride and Carapaz didnt chase him

And later they sat up and no one rode when the UAE Doms caught up

Yates deserved to win because he took it on and because he had WVA and he was on a good day today and fortune favours the brave but Carapaz (who I am not the greatest fan of) is right about the strongest climbers

But there was not that much difference between them ..del Toro had speed to the line, Carapaz had explosive power and Yates had great endurance

 

[Fantastico]

It looked like this for a first few kilometers but I don't fully agree. IDT wasn't able to pace much faster- he tried to go faster on the gravel section and was almost instantly in the red zone. Carapaz wasn't able to shake off Del Toro but wasn't able to close the gap too. They were constantly shipping time, unable to recover and respond.

They weren't cooperating and that's why they were out of control in the middle of Finestre but they would lose anyway.

Del Toro was able to catch the Yates once or twice but he would be eventually dropped anyway in the second half of Finestre.

I agree that they were in the red zone on the gravel section if not earlier, and could not close the gap to Yates who was then superior, so at that point they probably would have lost anyway.

Question is, would they have been able to follow Yates if they had ridden a more steady pace from the start of the climb? I think they spent a lot of energy early on with all the attacking and responding, so that's hard to assess in hindsight. But that's just speculation, and that way Carapaz would've not won the Giro either.

 

[Tim Cahill]

What was Simon’s time on Finestre? New record?

Yeah, 59'23

July will be interesting.

 

[Sciatic]

Double disagree!! Seeing flat out racing, Del Toro and Carapaz working together to either bring him back or blow trying, would have been vastly better than this. I can find no humor in it; it's not a dénouement worthy of the stage imho.

You don’t think Carapaz put in flat out effort with his 27 attacks to try distance Del Toro. And he’s no tempo climber, that was going to be the way he could win if it worked. He just couldn’t do it. It’s Del Toro that let the race get away from him.

 

[YavorD]

Yeah, 59'23

July will be interesting.

I clocked it on 59'09 but I might be wrong.
I didn't see a banner for start of the climb and I went for some random point after the left turn.

 

[Red Rick]

What was Simon’s time on Finestre? New record?

59'30 ish something I forgot. New record by about a minute.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

At the same time, being the strongest rider over 3 weeks is not enough if you don't take advantage of it. Yes, the parcours was a key part of that, but I'm reminded - again - of Scarponi talking about them seeing Hesjedal struggling at the back of the favourites group in the early mountains of 2012 and nobody taking advantage expecting him to drop away, only for him to ride into form and be at his strongest in week 3 - as was his tendency.

Or, for a better and more hubris-led example, the amount of time Jumbo-Visma left on the table in the 2020 Tour de France by deciding to do slow, miserable group rides at the speed of their third best rider and preserve a small lead until losing the race on the penultimate day in the PDBF ITT.

If you let the race come down to a one-stage shootout, then it doesn't matter who was the strongest rider for three weeks, it matters who was the strongest rider on that day. A bit like (uh-oh, gonna upset RHD by talking about a sport other than cycling again now) how France were a demonstrably better football side for the majority of the Qatar World Cup and Argentina kinda fumbled their way by hook or by crook to get to the final... but in the final itself, Argentina were the better team and the deserving winners of that particular match.