Giro route criticism

[Escarabajo]

without ac rujano would've dominated the race

Ryo I congratulate you on your Rujano Success, but I have to disagree with you on something. Most of the time gained by Rujano has been due to AC pulling in front most of the time. The race without AC would have been more leveled on the strength of contenders including Rujano.

 

[The Hitch]

Well without AC everything would have been different (incl stage 3- butterfly effect)

But Rujano probably would have still lost time on Srade Bianchi.


meaning he would have these epic mountain stages do get this time back.

A stronger rider chasing down weaker riders who have minutes gc lead.

This was the formula that worked so well last year. Basso needing as much time in the mountains against Arroyo.

Here Rujano vs Nibali, Scarponi, Anton. Etc.

Moreover they would probably be fighting among themselves at first and underestimate him.

Woudl have been epic.

But this seems a Giro of what might have been.

Still have ZOncolan Fedalia Nvegal and Finnestre to rectify that. I give that lineup a chance.

 

[Met de Versnelling]

The route would have been spectacular without AC absolutely caning everyone else. 16 riders within 3 minutes going into the last week? We would have seen people attacking and blowing up all over the palce, you really would not know what was going to happen from one day to the next. For this, i'm going to congratulate Zomes.

On the otherhand, inviting AC with the CAS troubles ahead maybe have been a bad idea (Yes, i know this thread is not a clinic thread, but wait), as (as others have said), the race for 2nd may actually be more important. Also, Zomes has taken a massive risk, Bertie was always going to be there or thereabouts, and he's risking egg on the face of the race of having the result changed.

However, now we're getting to if's and but's.

Rujano - "Had he not lost 5mins on serrato, then he'd dominant this race" - Indeed, he may well have dominated. But lets be honest, he has lost the time on serrato, and that's not about who's in the race. I think it's safe to say he'd have lost that amount of time 8/10 times if they were to repeat the stage, and i'm afraid Ryo, no amount of fanboy-ing would change that

That's given him rope to go out on the attack. Scarponi today as well as attacking AC, knows the danger that Rujano poses to that podium. Alot depends on Zoncolan for Rujano, he needs to make up another 2 minutes tomorrow, or i don't think he'll have enough km's left to gain the time needed to depend in the Milan ITT.

Let me just say here, i'm a massive Rujano fan, and i would love Jose to come second! (Possibly 1st in June).

If Contador wasn't here, then the race would be more open, as seen by the 16 riders all within 3mins, and more attacking. Probably, but would Nibbles have attacked more, would Menchov? No, their followers. What would have changed was the effectiveness of Rujano/Scarponi's attack, who's to say then Scarponi wouldn't have dominated?

What we should do, is sit back, and enjoy the spectacle, and accept that there's one or two things going on here that have affected the dynamics of the race, Contador's dominance, and the CAS hearing in June.

I for one, cannot wait for the week to come.

 

[benpounder]

The route is ****. Zomegnan made it too hard.

You got your wish.

Happy now?

 

[roundabout]

I'll probably cap my posts to 3 lines from now on as I already admitted that removing the Crostis would make the route better.

Selective reading ftw, eh?

 

[The Hitch]

I'll probably cap my posts to 3 lines from now on as I already admitted that removing the Crostis would make the route better.

Selective reading ftw, eh?

I read it.

You say Crostis + Zoncolan would decide the Giro making the future stages meaningless.

Your one of the top posters when it comes to cycling knowledge, but no one who is serious about anything, will not have had the experience of disagreeing strongly with people they usually agree with.

Here is my counterargument.

The Giro is looking all over anyway. The Crostis and Zonc could give Contador 10 minutes but doesnt he already look to have it in the bag with 3 minutes on Nibali (not the best climber).

Ok so you say all the positons could be decided but I disagree. I think stage 15 and 16 and 19 would have been enough to overturn those positions. Rujano for instance is almost 3 minutes down on Nibali with a 32k tt to come. Would have been a very good chance of him competing with others for the podium though that could still happen.

But more importantly, Crostis + Zoncolan was the only chance i think they had to crack Contador. Contador looks superhuman but in reality no one is. Weve seen him crack before in PAris Nice, and unlikely as it was, by working together his chalengers could have tried tactics on him here. Even he would struggle to do those 3 hours on his own.

Maybe Rujano could have got 6 minutes on Contador

With only Zoncolan and on 15 as well, the chance is gone.

Finally, while i myself am one who looks to the future rather than a hedonist living in the hear and now, i think occasional indulgences are a good thing. This was an occasional indulgence. You had one of the hardest stages ever which threw everything you could think of into 210k km. If it ruined the rest of the Giro, well so be it. Other grand tours will come and go. That would have been a memory that lasted a very long time.

Someone find out what the next anniversary giro has to support is and when. Maybe we will see Crostis Zonc then

Or to negate the "ruin rest of the Giro" thing, put it on the last day

 

[auscyclefan94]

I dislike the course. It is too mountain heavy. Zomegnan has totally neglected the sprinters and hasn't put in enough time trial km's. The best gt route this year is la vuelta.

 

[hoolaparara]

So if I get the original poster right, he thinks with lots of mountains left that this course is bad because its so difficult that most of the riders come in together apart from Contador who is taking 90 seconds (with Rujano next to him) and he makes the judgement before the end he prefers a more tour like course which is easy enough that all the main riders can't drop each other and ride in together?

 

[dabar85]

If there isn't contador then there isn't depth in peloton that makes race special. Without top classes we have that sort of race in any stage race, and giro is bit more special, but contador in this shape destroyed everybody else. Scarponi and nibali are 2nd class riders to contador and this parcours made it even easier for contador

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Zomegnan has totally neglected the sprinters

For this reason, the Giro is the best GT route of the year. If Guardini continues to improve, don't worry, we'll get a garbage 2004-like route soon enough.

 

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

For this reason, the Giro is the best GT route of the year. If Guardini continues to improve, don't worry, we'll get a garbage 2004-like route soon enough.

2004 (and 2000) are my favorite Giros from the last decade. Can't wait to see something like that again.

 

[icefire]

For this reason, the Giro is the best GT route of the year. If Guardini continues to improve, don't worry, we'll get a garbage 2004-like route soon enough.

Just look at some of the courses in the late 70's and early 80's that were taylor made for the likes of Moser and Saronni. If the Giro goes that way it will become the 3rd GT and Zomegnan should know that.

 

[auscyclefan94]

For this reason, the Giro is the best GT route of the year. If Guardini continues to improve, don't worry, we'll get a garbage 2004-like route soon enough.

You can neglect sprinters. They are an important aspect of the sport. I think things should be more balanced. Do you really want the sprinter to become exctinct?

 

[icefire]

You can neglect sprinters. They are a boring aspect of the sport. I think things should be more balanced. Do you really want the sprinter to become exctinct?

Fixed it for you

Pancake flat stages with a breakaway held at no more than 2 minutes advantage by the sprinters trains must become extinct.

Sprinters and their trains are fine on the track where they belong, not on the road.

 

[Ferminal]

I dislike the course. It is too mountain heavy. Zomegnan has totally neglected the sprinters and hasn't put in enough time trial km's. The best gt route this year is la vuelta.

He hardly neglected the sprinters.

When the route was announced, Petacchi said there were 7 or 8 stages he thought he could win. As I look at it, there are seven sprint stages (2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10 12). Four ended in a bunch sprint, two ended with late attackers beating the bunch, and one was tragically neutralised. Should there be ten stages sprinters can win, with at least six or seven "dead certs"? Ok, last year there was one sprint after Zoncolan, the one Greipel took, which was probably the most forgettable stage in the whole race, along with the one Cofidis (forget who) won the same week. Last year there were eight sprint stages for a total of five bunch sprints, hardly a big difference.

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I am actually finding the race very good to watch, each stage has lived up to its expectations, some even more so (5 and 8 come to mind). Montevergine is probably the real downer for me, even thought I expected it, it was booooring. The break was good on 11, but I guess the stage probably should have been longer. Orvieto was a very good stage, what did people think, we were going to get ones and twos coming across like last year?

The course is hardly different compared with last year. Zoncolan and Kronplatz were the biggest stages, on either side of the rest day. This year Zoncolan and the following day are the biggest stages, just before the rest day. Last year we had Mortirolo bringing it home in the final week, this year we have Finestre. The final MTF was an epic stage (Tonale?) on paper but lacked the finish to be damaging.

In terms of difficulty:

Orvieto <<< Montalcino (due to rain)
Montervergine << Terminillo
Etna > Monte Grappa
Stage 11 <<< L'Aquila
Grossglockner (no 2010 equivalent).
Zoncolan (with Crostis) >> Zoncolan
Nevegal << Kronplatz
Macugnaga = Stage Cofidis won
Giau-Fedaia-Gardeccia >> Gavia-Tonale (but a time difference here).
Finestre-Sestriere = Mortirolo-Aprica

If this field was running last year, what would be different? Contador might have tested his legs on Terminillo. Grappa would have been the same, possibly even worse with this field as Contador/Rujano may not have gone away with the descent in their mind. Zoncolan... same stage basically. Contador and Rujano take more time on Kronplatz. We go into the final two big days knowing that Contador is comfortably the best, with Rujano trying to make up for silly early losses. I can't see too much changing. Contador has a winning lead which he has earned on two regulation GT MTFs. If this was July, he could have done the same thing, but on Plateau de Beille and Luz Ardiden, whilst everyone else is waiting for Galibier and the Alpe.

What if we played them on the 2009 course...

Trying to compare 2011 and 2010 is futile. We had the crazy stages to begin with in The Netherlands, and it continued in Italy for the remainder of the first week. You could race the same course 100 times and you would be lucky to have something similar happen 5 times. Of course, what made 2010 supreme was the efforts of a few, in particular I think Vino and Evans, who raced every second of every stage, and then it was Basso in the mountains.

I enjoy watching the best stage racer we may ever see go about his business, I'm not going to complain because someone is "too good". Scarponi is more aggressive this year than last, where he just hung on over Grappa and Mortirolo, and got dropped on Zoncolan. Nibali last year had a purpose, but we should look at Nibali's Vuelta for what he was going to do, and thus far he hasn't deviated from that position. Kreuziger is much the same, riding somewhat of a measured race. Behind them you have Rodriguez and Anton, who don't quite look to be their best, but they tried yesterday and we will probably see more of them in the next two stages.

Things could be more exciting, and with more tension if Contador wasn't there. Should we blame RFEC. Should we blame Ricco for not knowing how to dope? Should we blame Scarponi for going too hard in March? Nibali for being too defensive? Anton and Rodriguez for not being at their best? Yes, if all those went our way things would be better, but this is the hand the Giro, and us as viewers have been dealt.

In saying all that, the Montevergine and Macugnaga "MTFs" are excessive, and Grossglockner probably wasn't needed. Two of those three could have been purged, maybe for one more sprint stage, or an ITT. What difference does it make? More ITT distance would probably make things worse, given that the main attacker, Rujano, is a lesser time trial amongst his top5 rivals, so they would ride more defensive, and Rujano can hardly be more aggressive. Contador meanwhile is the best TTer amongst his top5 rivals, so it's just more stages which suit him.

 

[hrotha]

I think the problem is too many MTF's, not too many mountain stages. There's other formats to spice things up and not make it so that the strongest always wins without having to put any thought into how to win.

 

[auscyclefan94]

He hardly neglected the sprinters.

When the route was announced, Petacchi said there were 7 or 8 stages he thought he could win. As I look at it, there are seven sprint stages (2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10 12). Four ended in a bunch sprint, two ended with late attackers beating the bunch, and one was tragically neutralised. Should there be ten stages sprinters can win, with at least six or seven "dead certs"? Ok, last year there was one sprint after Zoncolan, the one Greipel took, which was probably the most forgettable stage in the whole race, along with the one Cofidis (forget who) won the same week. Last year there were eight sprint stages for a total of five bunch sprints, hardly a big difference.

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I am actually finding the race very good to watch, each stage has lived up to its expectations, some even more so (5 and 8 come to mind). Montevergine is probably the real downer for me, even thought I expected it, it was booooring. The break was good on 11, but I guess the stage probably should have been longer. Orvieto was a very good stage, what did people think, we were going to get ones and twos coming across like last year?

For the pure sprinters, there is really only stages 2,4,8,10,12.

In terms of difficulty:

Montervergine << Terminillo
Etna > Monte Grappa
Grossglockner (no 2010 equivalent).
Zoncolan (with Crostis) >> Zoncolan
Nevegal << Kronplatz
Macugnaga = Stage Cofidis won
Giau-Fedaia-Gardeccia >> Gavia-Tonale (but a time difference here).
Finestre-Sestriere = Mortirolo-Aprica

I eliminated two of your comparisons as I thought they were irrelelvant. I also think Milan > Verona. I think there were more flatter stages in 2010 and 2010 going on what has happened so far, a more exciting race than this years edition.

Also you may want to note:
2011 had 8 official mountain stages compared to 2010's 5. 6 medium mountain stages in 2011 compared to 2010's 5. 2011 had 4 official flat stages in comparison to 2010's 7. 2011 had two more categorised climbs than 2010. 2011 also has 9 more km's of ITTing and the main tt is much longer.

It is a much harder edition this year. You can't base your opinion of the route based on time gaps and excitement. Compare the two routes not knowing what will happen. I find the 2010 edition a more balanced route.


Looking at it from an entertainment perspective, 2010 is clearly the better for me.

 

[Ferminal]

For the pure sprinters, there is really only stages 2,4,8,10,12.

Petacchi v Ventoso on Stage 6 was one for the puncheurs?

You should take 4 out too, as it would have dropped Cav.

I find the 2010 edition a more balanced route.

I agree, but it's still very difficult, harder than any other GT in recent years. 2011 is harder but not ridiculously harder, was 2010 the limit of how hard something can be, and anything harder (2011) destroys the race? I just find that hard route = ruins the race a bit of a stretch, it's a far more complex discussion than that. We have "awful" races and overly defensive riding on soft routes (2010 Tour for a shining example). 2009 Vuelta looked tough but produced nothing (although this is pushing my memory). This is of course assuming that the race is a bad GT, which the population will be split on anyway.

 

[The Hitch]

You can neglect sprinters. They are an important aspect of the sport. I think things should be more balanced. Do you really want the sprinter to become exctinct?

There were 7 stages Pettachi, said he saw as good for him.

Ok one of them - stage 8 had a climb at the end which made it none sprinter, perhaps could have done without it, but otherwise we had Vicioso Ventoso, Pettachi and Cav and Cav. Thats 5 sprtiners stages + the WW memorial stage which would have been flat.


Thats not neglecting the sprinters. Probably could have done with one more flat tt rather than mountain but 6 sprinters stages ins enough.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You can neglect sprinters. They are an important aspect of the sport. I think things should be more balanced. Do you really want the sprinter to become exctinct?

I wouldn't mind.

I don't mind sprinters winning when they've been made to work for their wins. Like the one Ventoso won, or the Middelburg stage last year. The flat stage with no significant obstacles, designed as little more than a GC rest day, to hell with that.

The sprinters have more chances to win than any other rider, and the races they win are usually boring until the last 5 minutes. I don't see why we should give them more than a 3rd of the race, or in fact more than about 3-4 stages.

 

[Astana1]

Good job Giro. You don't look incompetent or anything like that right now. Don't worry about that.

 

[Ferminal]

Good job Giro. You don't look incompetent or anything like that right now. Don't worry about that.

The teams/UCI forced a route change on them at the eleventh hour, and a situation on the road also forced a change. Yet they still managed to sort everything out and get everyone to the Zoncolan smoothly.

Trying reading up on the facts before making silly comments.

 

[roundabout]

Let's see what stage 15 brings. Zoncolan had slightly smaller gaps than expected but it is an automatic gap mountain where small differences are amplified.