Grand Depart 2017 in Germany?

[Valv.Piti]

The biggest problems for me are the fact that it seems they haven't designed any proper queen stage yet again and the placement of the ITT.

 

[Netserk]

I guess they go with the 2009 approach of limiting gaps as much as possible. To keep Alberto in the top of the GC for as long as possible?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Literally five minutes' thought about the Pyrenees gives me this viable alternative of a route for Peyragudes that wouldn't just be a clone of 2012 and give us something slightly new (Pau picked as départ because, you know, Le Tour) that would enable some action given it's an MTF with the following stage being very tough so perhaps limiting the earlier action, so chaining climbs at the end to prevent those struggling from getting back on:

And this best-case-scenario stage for the Foix stage:

If you're wondering about the Col de Lançon I've included there, the ascent is quite narrow on the D219 out of Arreau, the descent on the D25 isn't wide but not much more so than the Port de Balès descent, we're not talking one of the Iparraldean ribbon roads, plus the descent is not steep or especially technical.

The way up:

The way down:

Yes, the Peyragudes stage would be tougher with the Tourmalet, but I think we should celebrate a lack of Tourmalet.

 

[Gigs_98]

Guys don't let you fool by Miki's profile of the Izoard stage. Thats just cronoescalada (the program used to make the profile) which stretched the profile vertically, so it looks like the vars is a hard climb and there is no flat before the Izoard. But the Vars is a climb which is hardly even worth 1st category from this side and a climb where you can maybe get a few seconds if you attack but definitely not more. Than after the descent the way to the start of the Izoard is 100% the same false flat which we saw between Agnello and Rissoul in the giro this year. The problem is that while it was slightly downhill in the giro this time it's slightly uphill which makes it basically impossible for attackers to keep an advantage over a larger group. Also because the Vars is so easy that even 2009 Contador, 2014 Nibali and 2015 Quintana combined couldn't destroy the skytrain there. This stage is simply s***. No other way to say it.

However it would basically also be possible to tackle the Izoard from the other side and I would absolutely prefer that option. Also because you could finish on the Izoard and make a giro tribute in only one stage. For example:

Still not perfect but IMO way better than the stage with the vars.

 

[Netserk]

In the Foix stage you could add Portillon as well

Gigs, if you go to Italy, I'd prefer Sestriere in the beginning and the final with Agnel before Izoard.

 

[mikii4567]

Guys don't let you fool by Miki's profile of the Izoard stage. Thats just cronoescalada (the program used to make the profile) which stretched the profile vertically, so it looks like the vars is a hard climb and there is no flat before the Izoard. But the Vars is a climb which is hardly even worth 1st category from this side and a climb where you can maybe get a few seconds if you attack but definitely not more. Than after the descent the way to the start of the Izoard is 100% the same false flat which we saw between Agnello and Rissoul in the giro this year. The problem is that while it was slightly downhill in the giro this time it's slightly uphill which makes it basically impossible for attackers to keep an advantage over a larger group. Also because the Vars is so easy that even 2009 Contador, 2014 Nibali and 2015 Quintana combined couldn't destroy the skytrain there. This stage is simply s***. No other way to say it.

However it would basically also be possible to tackle the Izoard from the other side and I would absolutely prefer that option. Also because you could finish on the Izoard and make a giro tribute in only one stage. For example:

Still not perfect but IMO way better than the stage with the vars.

1) Yeah, I really should've changed the vertical scale, because what you're saying is true .
2) That stage would be epic, but it won't happen. Velowire's predicting Briancon, Guillestre, Embrun, Savines le Lac, Le Lauzet Ubaye, Barcelonnette, Vars, Guillestre and Izoard (south). When making my stage, I sort of tried to follow that idea, but the only climbs in that area are Reallon and Pontis, and even with that we're getting ca. 60km of uphill at 3%. So basically it will be ****.

edit:

Gigs, if you go to Italy, I'd prefer Sestriere in the beginning and the final with Agnel before Izoard.

Same :

 

[Red Rick]

Guys don't let you fool by Miki's profile of the Izoard stage. Thats just cronoescalada (the program used to make the profile) which stretched the profile vertically, so it looks like the vars is a hard climb and there is no flat before the Izoard. But the Vars is a climb which is hardly even worth 1st category from this side and a climb where you can maybe get a few seconds if you attack but definitely not more. Than after the descent the way to the start of the Izoard is 100% the same false flat which we saw between Agnello and Rissoul in the giro this year. The problem is that while it was slightly downhill in the giro this time it's slightly uphill which makes it basically impossible for attackers to keep an advantage over a larger group. Also because the Vars is so easy that even 2009 Contador, 2014 Nibali and 2015 Quintana combined couldn't destroy the skytrain there. This stage is simply s***. No other way to say it.

However it would basically also be possible to tackle the Izoard from the other side and I would absolutely prefer that option. Also because you could finish on the Izoard and make a giro tribute in only one stage. For example:

Still not perfect but IMO way better than the stage with the vars.

That stage should always finish in Briancon, then it would be perfect. Izoard preceded by Agnello should be a huge improvement already. Fling in Sampeyre for sadistic purposes. Angello has the benefit of being harder and higher than Izoard, so you could basically have a harder version of stage 19 of this year's Giro.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

In the Foix stage you could add Portillon as well

Gigs, if you go to Italy, I'd prefer Sestriere in the beginning and the final with Agnel before Izoard.

I'd prefer Agnel as the penultimate climb too, but I thought the stage would get too long, because considering the last time the last mountain stage of the tour was longer than 150 km was in 2010 I just can't see them making a stage longer than 200 km.
Anyway the stage I posted is probably too long as well.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

In the Foix stage you could add Portillon as well

Gigs, if you go to Italy, I'd prefer Sestriere in the beginning and the final with Agnel before Izoard.

I know, and you or I may do so, but with 4 cat.1 climbs (and Menté west is about as hard as a cat.1 gets before going HC) and 2 cat.2s ASO probably would see another cat.2 as overkill. As long as the break is formed on Menté so we get a strong one, it could be great nonetheless with a transitional stage or rest day to follow.

 

[Netserk]

I get your point, especially since Portillon would be cat. 1, as the west side is the hardest (but why did you classify Soulor as HC )

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

I get your point, especially since Portillon would be cat. 1, as the west side is the hardest (but why did you classify Soulor as HC )

It's harder then Arcalis #tdfcategorizations #kompointsinflation #asogonnaaso

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Because I figured ASO would not want to do a whole traditional range without a single HC climb, and it is the hardest of the climbs I was using other than Menté, which they never give HC to. I didn't really put much thought into it.

I mean, the stage could just as easily have added 20km and gone over Aubisque instead, which is undisputably HC. I just wanted to avoid the Tourmalet and do something other than Balès before Peyragudes.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re: Re:

I get your point, especially since Portillon would be cat. 1, as the west side is the hardest (but why did you classify Soulor as HC )

It's harder then Arcalis #tdfcategorizations #kompointsinflation #asogonnaaso

It would be better if there was no HC at all, and just kept to Cat1's like the Giro (it's a little like the absurdity of English soccer which has division 3 as "division 1" and division 2 as "the championship", everything needing a better title to feel better about themselves). Some other climbs that are about as hard as Arcalis or slightly easier could remain C1, the rest of the C1's drop to C2's, and so forth.

The C1 could still be double points for the KOM when it's the final climb of the stage.

 

[Nirvana]

Guys don't let you fool by Miki's profile of the Izoard stage. Thats just cronoescalada (the program used to make the profile) which stretched the profile vertically, so it looks like the vars is a hard climb and there is no flat before the Izoard. But the Vars is a climb which is hardly even worth 1st category from this side and a climb where you can maybe get a few seconds if you attack but definitely not more. Than after the descent the way to the start of the Izoard is 100% the same false flat which we saw between Agnello and Rissoul in the giro this year. The problem is that while it was slightly downhill in the giro this time it's slightly uphill which makes it basically impossible for attackers to keep an advantage over a larger group. Also because the Vars is so easy that even 2009 Contador, 2014 Nibali and 2015 Quintana combined couldn't destroy the skytrain there. This stage is simply s***. No other way to say it.

However it would basically also be possible to tackle the Izoard from the other side and I would absolutely prefer that option. Also because you could finish on the Izoard and make a giro tribute in only one stage. For example:

Still not perfect but IMO way better than the stage with the vars.

Finestre at 80 kms to go is a useless waste like Mortirolo in the supposed Giro stage before Umbrail and Stelvio. If you want Finestre you need a finish at Sestriere and put the day after Agnello + Izoard, possibly with a finish in Briançon instead of on the top of Izoard.

 

[Gigs_98]

Guys don't let you fool by Miki's profile of the Izoard stage. Thats just cronoescalada (the program used to make the profile) which stretched the profile vertically, so it looks like the vars is a hard climb and there is no flat before the Izoard. But the Vars is a climb which is hardly even worth 1st category from this side and a climb where you can maybe get a few seconds if you attack but definitely not more. Than after the descent the way to the start of the Izoard is 100% the same false flat which we saw between Agnello and Rissoul in the giro this year. The problem is that while it was slightly downhill in the giro this time it's slightly uphill which makes it basically impossible for attackers to keep an advantage over a larger group. Also because the Vars is so easy that even 2009 Contador, 2014 Nibali and 2015 Quintana combined couldn't destroy the skytrain there. This stage is simply s***. No other way to say it.

However it would basically also be possible to tackle the Izoard from the other side and I would absolutely prefer that option. Also because you could finish on the Izoard and make a giro tribute in only one stage. For example:

Still not perfect but IMO way better than the stage with the vars.

Finestre at 80 kms to go is a useless waste like Mortirolo in the supposed Giro stage before Umbrail and Stelvio. If you want Finestre you need a finish at Sestriere and put the day after Agnello + Izoard, possibly with a finish in Briançon instead of on the top of Izoard.

But the stage will go from Briançon to the Izoard, therefore I couldn't just let the stage finish somewhere else. I agree that this isn't a perfect final mountain stage and probably nothing will happen on the Finestre, but I'd still definitely take this stage over a stage with the Vars as the only (more or less) serious climb before the Izoard.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If ASO were to go into Italy, given current trends, we'd be more likely to get this though:

 

[mikii4567]

Re:

If ASO were to go into Italy, given current trends, we'd be more likely to get this though:

Meh. No action before Izoard... 90km of boredom .

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

If ASO were to go into Italy, given current trends, we'd be more likely to get this though:

Sadly true

 

[Alpe-Thibaut]

Any rumors about cobbles?The stage 5 in 2014 is dramatic

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re:

Any rumors about cobbles?The stage 5 in 2014 is dramatic

Tour 2017 will not go in Northern France.

 

[Netserk]

Off Topic: So when are the Giro going to use Colle Basset? Probably never with Finestre so close...

 

[Nirvana]

Re:

Off Topic: So when are the Giro going to use Colle Basset? Probably never with Finestre so close...

Local administrations proposed Basset as an alternative of Finestre + Sestriere when they went to Paris in 2014 for a meeting with ASO in order to have a stage finish + stage start in the area of "Montagne Olimpiche".

 

[Netserk]

Awesome! Would be great to preserve Finestre for the Giro and then have the Tour use Basset once in a while.

 

[Ashhutch97]

I personalty would rather Port de Bales/Peyresourde/Peyragudes than via Tourmalet/ Aspet/Azet/Peyragudes. The latter is way to similar to stage 8 in this years Tour. The stage to Peyragudes in 2012 was one of the only good stages of that years Tour. Unfortunately on the stage to Foix they will probably do the same run in as in 2012 where they do that loop around Foix to allow them to finish in the Town centre. This means that instead of the top of the Mur de Peguere being only 25kms from the finish it will be about 40kms which might kill any GC action from happening.

 

[Svam]

Rather than modifying the stages, a good idea for the Alps would be to invert them. A stage from La Mure to Col d'Izoard by Vars is 205km long. Additional perk : the start would be less flat with the hilly 'Route Napoléon' which always stimulate the baroudeurs.

The day after, a Briançon-Serre-Chevalier could occur with a similar profile as the one planned by ASO : Montgenevre (instead of Ornon) and Mont-Cenis (~Croix-de-Fer) before the famous Télégraphe-Galibier. FYI, this route is the same as the Luc Alphand cyclosportive which is held each year in Serre-Chevalier.