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Grand Depart 2017 in Germany?

Page 11 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
The sad thing is that we see proper mountain stages even more rarely than proper ITTs in the Tour. As it is now, one of the hardest mountain stages recently was 138km and with only 1 HC climb :eek:

I'm not (necessarily) asking for the epic of old, but really when are we to see proper hard stages where the attacks will/should come further from the finish than the last 5km?

It's not like France doesn't have the geography for it.
m8Wk4YA.png

*From the upcoming Netserk Fantasy Tour :p

Don't tell me 30km up and down is too much after Mont-Noir to see the contenders attack there. (If they need time)
MontNoirW.gif
 
Re:

Netserk said:
The sad thing is that we see proper mountain stages even more rarely than proper ITTs in the Tour. As it is now, one of the hardest mountain stages recently was 138km and with only 1 HC climb :eek:

I'm not (necessarily) asking for the epic of old, but really when are we to see proper hard stages where the attacks will/should come further from the finish than the last 5km?

It's not like France doesn't have the geography for it.
m8Wk4YA.png

*From the upcoming Netserk Fantasy Tour :p

Don't tell me 30km up and down is too much after Mont-Noir to see the contenders attack there. (If they need time)
MontNoirW.gif
A lot of this as well. Cycling is has changed. Some in favour of all rounders, some in favour of pure climbers. Can't have it both ways.
 
So:

One mountain stage in the Vosges (La Planche des Belles Filles MTF) (?)
1126.gif


One mountain stage in the Jura (Chambéry via Grand Colombier-Mont du Chat)
143.gif


Two mountain stages in the Pyrenees (Peyragudes MTF via Balès, Foix via Péguère)
1475845162-tdf12-etape-17-port-de-bales-peyragudes.jpg

1637.gif


Two mountain stages in the Alps (Serre-Chevalier via Galibier, Izoard MTF)
37.gif

46.gif
 
If I remember well, the clinical issues were a reason why ASO started designing softer routes.
Even though it sounds like an obvious PR, I believe there's some substance in that. Whether a stage is 140 or 220 kilometres long - to the ASO it's pretty much the same. Only the riders feel the benefit of softer routes.
 
Guess you can't always have more then 6 mountain stages, but unless there's some good medium mountains, it really seems very lazy. Vosges using the same MTF as in recent years, 2 seemingly weak pyrenean stages with nothing new. Mur de Peguere is a great climb for preventing earlier action. Peyragudes is a *** climb and on a very prominent spot on my to-nuke list. Alps, just 2 MTF on climbs that are better as passes?

Props for the GC + Mont du Chat stage though, though it could be better, but it's probably too early for that.
 
Red Rick said:
mikii4567 said:
Red Rick said:
Alps, just 2 MTF on climbs that are better as passes?
Izoard and...? Which is the second?
Galibier if I'm understanding correctly?
That will be a descent finish. Apparently the start will be in La Mure, so I assume Ornon - Croix-de-Fer (via Glandon from Bourg d'Oisans) - Telegraphe - Galibier, and the finish will be in Villeneuve-la-Salle, just under 30km after the last HC climb of the day. It may actually be one of the best designed stages in 2017, because next day looks like absolute rubbish...
edit:
QXOQWjk.png
 
Re:

mikii4567 said:
Meanwhile, the next stage, may end up looking like this...
GHZbYQw.png

:mad: :mad: :mad:

What is wrong with this stage (apart from believing that Izoard should be used as a pass)?

The best designs tend to be stages where you have almost no flat between the penultimate and final climbs (like with the excellent Pailhares-AX3Domaines combo), which appears to be the case here. And Telegraphe/Galibier with descent finish is good also. The alps look balanced (and much tougher than 2012 for example where these pyrenees look similar, but they only had La Tousierre). Only 4 stages this time through the major mountain ranges is good for a change, and Mont du Chat and PBF stages will act as normal high mountain stages, so 6 high mountain stages which used to be the norm until recently.

They will need to throw in at least a few lumpy or classic like stages, with a couple that are more than likely to provide some GC interest, plus some potentially windy stages so as not to have too many boring pancake flat stages.

Unless they are going to put in 4 or 5 time trials, but I think that's rather wishful thinking on my behalf :D

Edit: Re Izoard. Unless you're annoyed that they are having the MTF stage after the descent finish stage (possibly discouraging long range attacks on the Galibier)? That, I would agree with, although the Telegraphe/Galibier combo is surely tough enough to see some action anyway. Especially if they're already had some significant time trialling beforehand so as to create serious time gaps.
 
Re:

Netserk said:
First of, forget about Reallon and Pontis. As for no flat between Vars and Izoard...

IzoardS.gif

That's only about 14 kms. Not too bad.

But about the non factor of early climbs, good point. For there would be no Queen stage in this Tour. No proper REALLY hard mountain stage, again! So they are still missing the 220 km, 4 or 5 HC/1 stage.

The death of queen stages and of long flat ITT's. It's like a chess game without the queen and rooks (come on, they look boring, only moving in a straight line!). Takes longer to find an obvious winner, but the game is no longer as exciting.

And showing us numerous castles is not a satisfactory substitute :D
 
Re: Re:

gregrowlerson said:
mikii4567 said:
Meanwhile, the next stage, may end up looking like this...
GHZbYQw.png

:mad: :mad: :mad:

What is wrong with this stage (apart from believing that Izoard should be used as a pass)?

The best designs tend to be stages where you have almost no flat between the penultimate and final climbs (like with the excellent Pailhares-AX3Domaines combo), which appears to be the case here. And Telegraphe/Galibier with descent finish is good also. The alps look balanced (and much tougher than 2012 for example where these pyrenees look similar, but they only had La Tousierre). Only 4 stages this time through the major mountain ranges is good for a change, and Mont du Chat and PBF stages will act as normal high mountain stages, so 6 high mountain stages which used to be the norm until recently.

They will need to throw in at least a few lumpy or classic like stages, with a couple that are more than likely to provide some GC interest, plus some potentially windy stages so as not to have too many boring pancake flat stages.

Unless they are going to put in 4 or 5 time trials, but I think that's rather wishful thinking on my behalf :D

Edit: Re Izoard. Unless you're annoyed that they are having the MTF stage after the descent finish stage (possibly discouraging long range attacks on the Galibier)? That, I would agree with, although the Telegraphe/Galibier combo is surely tough enough to see some action anyway. Especially if they're already had some significant time trialling beforehand so as to create serious time gaps.

There's 15km of (false) flat (1.5%) between the end of the descent of the Vars and the start of the Izoard.
And the stage to Serre Chevalier will be softpedalled because of the difficulty of the finish the day after.
 
Re:

Alexandre B. said:
So:

One mountain stage in the Vosges (La Planche des Belles Filles MTF) (?)


One mountain stage in the Jura (Chambéry via Grand Colombier-Mont du Chat)


Two mountain stages in the Pyrenees (Peyragudes MTF via Balès, Foix via Péguère)


Two mountain stages in the Alps (Serre-Chevalier via Galibier, Izoard MTF)
Looks like the mountain stages could be weaker than "ever." Not sure why they're going with this approach.
 
Re: Re:

18-Valve. (pithy) said:
Alexandre B. said:
So:

One mountain stage in the Vosges (La Planche des Belles Filles MTF) (?)


One mountain stage in the Jura (Chambéry via Grand Colombier-Mont du Chat)


Two mountain stages in the Pyrenees (Peyragudes MTF via Balès, Foix via Péguère)


Two mountain stages in the Alps (Serre-Chevalier via Galibier, Izoard MTF)
Looks like the mountain stages could be weaker than "ever." Not sure why they're going with this approach.
objectively, all the tour editions from 2013 until 2016 were really backloaded with mountains. I for myself don't see any tragedy in one more 2012-like parcours. :)
 
I agree with those that argue the rumoured route could have been better however I do believe the criticism is a bit harsh.

6 mountain stages?

What about the rumoured stage 8? Although we do not no for sure yet it could be something similar to the stage from Tournus - Les Rousses in 2010. It may not be a stage that will determine the tour de france nor create big gaps between GC-contenders but potentially it could become good enough to at least be classified as a mountain stage.

Stage 16 is also rumoured to contain Col du Beal and considering it is not far from Romain Bardets roots it could very well become a stage tough enough for him to take stage victory.


That said I am of course disappointed with both the Pyreneers and alps.

Rather than Port de Bale, Peyresorde(Peyragudes), I would have preferred the idea of Col du Tourmalet followed by Col du Bourdes and the climb up to Val d'Azun-Couraduque better (similar to Route du Sud stage 4 2016. Of course ideally an even much tougher pattern would have been even better.

The second stage in the pyreneers could potentially be even worse. As I understand it we do not know much of the stage except that it will most likely finish in Foix and not with a MTF.


The stage to Serra Chevalier looks good but I still think it should have 4-5 mountains - let it be the queen stage of next years Tour de France. If possible even use Col du Iseran before Telegraphe, Galibier combo. (offtopic can anyone tell me why Iseran is used so sparringly in Tour de France?)

Col du Vars, Col du Izoard MTF - well like most people I am not too happy about this one. If a third alp-stage will emerge (for an instance as a tribute to Italy and the Giro's 100th year) it is no catastrophe. However as the last mountain stage of the tour in any given year simply to weak.

In case of an italian alp-stage there should be many possibilities. Colle d'Agnello, Sestriere, Colle Fauniera with the monument of Marco Pantani is not too far away. Another possibility however perhaps a longshot could be Courmayeur and its beautiful surroundings. Perhaps this is just 11th hour dreaming but with ten days left before we all have to wake up for reality (to a most probably weaker route than expected) I assume no one can blame me ;)
 
Re: Re:

gregrowlerson said:
Netserk said:
First of, forget about Reallon and Pontis. As for no flat between Vars and Izoard...

IzoardS.gif

That's only about 14 kms. Not too bad.

But about the non factor of early climbs, good point. For there would be no Queen stage in this Tour. No proper REALLY hard mountain stage, again! So they are still missing the 220 km, 4 or 5 HC/1 stage.

The death of queen stages and of long flat ITT's. It's like a chess game without the queen and rooks (come on, they look boring, only moving in a straight line!). Takes longer to find an obvious winner, but the game is no longer as exciting.

And showing us numerous castles is not a satisfactory substitute :D

No flat or little flat between penultimate and final climb matters only when the penultimate climb is actually significant compared to the final climb. Col de Vars from that side is an absolute *** climb and this stage might as well have been designed by Unipublic.
 
Re: Re:

dacooley said:
18-Valve. (pithy) said:
Alexandre B. said:
So:

One mountain stage in the Vosges (La Planche des Belles Filles MTF) (?)


One mountain stage in the Jura (Chambéry via Grand Colombier-Mont du Chat)


Two mountain stages in the Pyrenees (Peyragudes MTF via Balès, Foix via Péguère)


Two mountain stages in the Alps (Serre-Chevalier via Galibier, Izoard MTF)
Looks like the mountain stages could be weaker than "ever." Not sure why they're going with this approach.
objectively, all the tour editions from 2013 until 2016 were really backloaded with mountains. I for myself don't see any tragedy in one more 2012-like parcours. :)
2012 was the shittiest parcours this century. It was designed for 2 riders specifically, and the easiest to control by one team, while gaps were massive in the TT's.

That's not to say that that stage distributions is necessarily wrong, I have no doubt you can make a great parcours with 1 Vosges stage, 1 Jura stage, and 2 stages in both the Pyrenees and the Alps.