Gray Market Bicycle Parts

[Night Rider]

I ton of disgruntled ex-customers show up and rabble rouse the living daylights out of them for all the crappy products that they've produced so far. The news stories goes ballistic and everyone shy's away from buying anything that has a hint of those manufactures touching a product. Yes, anyone one out of the loop will buy based on price and look of the higher end products but will quickly learn what did wrong.

Not sure about the rest of you's but who buys products that are not known to be good and have a solid known warrantee?

Most cycling products I buy I couldn't care less about the warranty, the exceptions are frames and sometimes wheels. In twenty odd years of buying parts and bikes there have been some failures, mostly just out of any warranty period anyway so I'm willing to take the risk of buying parts cheap overseas. For what it's worth though, the Asian frame manufacturers mentioned do actually provide a two year warranty.

A good solid warranty is open to interpretation as well. Giant and Specialized for instance have lifetime warranty, other manufacturers down as low as two years, that's not all that solid in my opinion for $6,000+ frames.

 

[Race Radio]

Most cycling products I buy I couldn't care less about the warranty, the exceptions are frames and sometimes wheels. In twenty odd years of buying parts and bikes there have been some failures, mostly just out of any warranty period anyway so I'm willing to take the risk of buying parts cheap overseas. For what it's worth though, the Asian frame manufacturers mentioned do actually provide a two year warranty.

A good solid warranty is open to interpretation as well. Giant and Specialized for instance have lifetime warranty, other manufacturers down as low as two years, that's not all that solid in my opinion for $6,000+ frames.

Pinarello warranty is 2 years. I can't image spending $6k on a frame with a 2 year warranty

 

[ultimobici]

Warranties depend on several things. The manufacturer is where the buck stops in most cases, but it is the dealer that can make all the difference.

A few months ago I had a customer who'd bought a carbon bike from us bring it in with a cracked stay. There was no doubt that it was covered, so it was just a matter of how long before the replacement came in. While we were waiting to hear back re the days the customer enquired about upgrading to the next model up. Initially the response was that it would have been possible but the cost of upgrading was prohibitive and even then it would be several weeks at best, so the idea was sunk. Couple of weeks later the distributor rang to say they had good news on two counts, upgrade cost could be substantially reduced and they could have the frame to me ASAP. Customer was happy.

But a month later, when the 5 came in for its first service, he mentioned a mark on the brake cable exit hole. Turned out it was a crack!! To add to his woes, he was about to go to the Alps on holiday for a month, so the chances of getting it resolved in time were SFA. After a couple of calls to the distributor explaining the issue they sent a demo model from another of their brands so he wasn't without a bike.

Had he bought his bike from one of those far east brands that offer a good warranty he wouldn't have got that in a million years.

 

[Race Radio]

Warranties depend on several things. The manufacturer is where the buck stops in most cases, but it is the dealer that can make all the difference.

A few months ago I had a customer who'd bought a carbon bike from us bring it in with a cracked stay. There was no doubt that it was covered, so it was just a matter of how long before the replacement came in. While we were waiting to hear back re the days the customer enquired about upgrading to the next model up. Initially the response was that it would have been possible but the cost of upgrading was prohibitive and even then it would be several weeks at best, so the idea was sunk. Couple of weeks later the distributor rang to say they had good news on two counts, upgrade cost could be substantially reduced and they could have the frame to me ASAP. Customer was happy.

But a month later, when the 5 came in for its first service, he mentioned a mark on the brake cable exit hole. Turned out it was a crack!! To add to his woes, he was about to go to the Alps on holiday for a month, so the chances of getting it resolved in time were SFA. After a couple of calls to the distributor explaining the issue they sent a demo model from another of their brands so he wasn't without a bike.

Had he bought his bike from one of those far east brands that offer a good warranty he wouldn't have got that in a million years.

Not exactly. Pedalforce is famous for their rapid warranty service. If your customers frame was $3000 he could have bought 6-7 China frames, shipped in a week.

I hate to be the guy defending the Chinese pop outs as I prefer small builders and want to see LBS survive....but the economics don't always support the big brand.

 

[ultimobici]

Not exactly. Pedalforce is famous for their rapid warranty service. If your customers frame was $3000 he could have bought 6-7 China frames, shipped in a week.

I hate to be the guy defending the Chinese pop outs as I prefer small builders and want to see LBS survive....but the economics don't always support the big brand.

PF may have a stellar warranty turnaround, but it wouldn't have been as quick as this. Monday bike comes in, Friday AM was flight time, bike was at the shop & built by thursday lunchtime. The brand concerned was not one of the majors by any stretch of the imagination.

But my point wasn't anything to do with the size of brand, rather it was what a shop can do for a customer that no online seller can. I have had customers who were outside their warranty period by more than a few months but have had the warranty covered because I went to bat for them. I have loaned customers my own wheels so they aren't unable to ride. That is the kind of extra that Wiggle, PBK, Ribble & others don't offer. That's what a good LBS does for its loyal customers.

By bypassing us and saying that it's because we're not evolving with the market the customer will soon be left with no option but to go online. Then you won't have an alternative based on customer service, you'll have a pure dollar & cents decision.

Good Luck

 

[Race Radio]

PF may have a stellar warranty turnaround, but it wouldn't have been as quick as this. Monday bike comes in, Friday AM was flight time, bike was at the shop & built by thursday lunchtime. The brand concerned was not one of the majors by any stretch of the imagination.

But my point wasn't anything to do with the size of brand, rather it was what a shop can do for a customer that no online seller can. I have had customers who were outside their warranty period by more than a few months but have had the warranty covered because I went to bat for them. I have loaned customers my own wheels so they aren't unable to ride. That is the kind of extra that Wiggle, PBK, Ribble & others don't offer. That's what a good LBS does for its loyal customers.

By bypassing us and saying that it's because we're not evolving with the market the customer will soon be left with no option but to go online. Then you won't have an alternative based on customer service, you'll have a pure dollar & cents decision.

Good Luck

I absolutely agree.

I feel it is critical that LBS survive. Providing a high level of service and uniform pricing is key to this.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

PF may have a stellar warranty turnaround, but it wouldn't have been as quick as this. Monday bike comes in, Friday AM was flight time, bike was at the shop & built by thursday lunchtime. The brand concerned was not one of the majors by any stretch of the imagination.

But my point wasn't anything to do with the size of brand, rather it was what a shop can do for a customer that no online seller can. I have had customers who were outside their warranty period by more than a few months but have had the warranty covered because I went to bat for them. I have loaned customers my own wheels so they aren't unable to ride. That is the kind of extra that Wiggle, PBK, Ribble & others don't offer. That's what a good LBS does for its loyal customers.

By bypassing us and saying that it's because we're not evolving with the market the customer will soon be left with no option but to go online. Then you won't have an alternative based on customer service, you'll have a pure dollar & cents decision.

Good Luck

Ok, good post, so let's examine it.

What you appears to be saying is that, hold on a second, we are comparing apples to oranges. A customer pays $2000 for a Campy SR kit from PBK, that's all he gets. A customer pays $3000 for a Campy SR kit from the LBS, he gets that PLUS the value of the relationship. That includes going to bat for the customer, lending wheels, etc. These are positive externalities that are not factored in the transaction price.

I think this is a perfectly fair argument. What remains to be resolved is the value that the customer places on these externalities. A self-sufficient price sensitive customer will not be swayed and will purchase based on price alone. The high-end customer places great value on service and being pampered. He/she will choose the LBS nearly every time.

That leaves us with a lot of customers in the middle. They want the great service, but cannot decide whether the extra price is worth it and often are unsure whether they will ever receive the service. These customer are the battleground between e-tailers and the LBS. The manufacturers don't care who wins as long as their product is sold. The Chinese companies don't seem to care if they're making bike frames or toasters, as long as the demand for the product is there. As RR pointed out above, consistently good service is key for the LBS.

 

[LugHugger]

Ok, good post, so let's examine it.

What you appears to be saying is that, hold on a second, we are comparing apples to oranges. A customer pays $2000 for a Campy SR kit from PBK, that's all he gets. A customer pays $3000 for a Campy SR kit from the LBS, he gets that PLUS the value of the relationship. That includes going to bat for the customer, lending wheels, etc. These are positive externalities that are not factored in the transaction price.

I think this is a perfectly fair argument. What remains to be resolved is the value that the customer places on these externalities. A self-sufficient price sensitive customer will not be swayed and will purchase based on price alone. The high-end customer places great value on service and being pampered. He/she will choose the LBS nearly every time.

That leaves us with a lot of customers in the middle. They want the great service, but cannot decide whether the extra price is worth it and often are unsure whether they will ever receive the service. These customer are the battleground between e-tailers and the LBS. The manufacturers don't care who wins as long as their product is sold. The Chinese companies don't seem to care if they're making bike frames or toasters, as long as the demand for the product is there. As RR pointed out above, consistently good service is key for the LBS.

Customer service is key but - how many riders paying $2-3,000 for a groupset have only one set of wheels? Or if their race wheels are out under warranty, won't hire a set for a critical race?

On Chinese carbon frame costs, DengFu quoted $350 per f&f if an order for 6 or more framesets was ordered. I'm pretty sure from personal experience that 6 consumer sourced framesets will outlast the warranty on almost any other $2,100 carbon frameset out there in the market.

Listen, it's not that I do not value craftsmanship or advocate throw-away consumerism but these figures are compulsive. The savings available should make any rider sit up and wonder where their money is best spent in deriving maximum value.

 

[JayKosta]

A real concern about buying "clone-frames" (or other clone-parts) is that they are usually 'stolen goods'.

The original manufacturer did all the design and developement expense, and advertising for those parts.
After the parts are in production and selling successfully, the factory 'allows' some parts to go out the backdoor for cheap.
Or 'allows' the molds to go to some other factory where the build cost is just simple material + labor, and all the upfront expense is avoided.

If you enjoy cheating (or think that you are 'justified') the original manufacturer by buying clone-parts, then that is up to you.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[LugHugger]

A real concern about buying "clone-frames" (or other clone-parts) is that they are usually 'stolen goods'.

The original manufacturer did all the design and developement expense, and advertising for those parts.
After the parts are in production and selling successfully, the factory 'allows' some parts to go out the backdoor for cheap.
Or 'allows' the molds to go to some other factory where the build cost is just simple material + labor, and all the upfront expense is avoided.

If you enjoy cheating (or think that you are 'justified') the original manufacturer by buying clone-parts, then that is up to you.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

I'm afraid that you're well wide of the mark there, Jay. You appear to be under the illusion that only Western engineers are capable of designing and marketing bike frames and forks and engineering a production mold. You also apparently discount the possibility that China and Taiwan turn out qualified engineers with entrepreneurial skills. And that those engineers are not free to design and market their goods to individuals as well as corporations.

Most cheap Chinese frames are not Chinarello clone frames. They are competently manufactured and engineered framesets capable of competing equally with the brands marketed in glossy magazines in North America and Europe.

Despite what bike companies marketing departments would have you believe, the engineering of a bike frame is not rocket science. And most bike companies low and middle end frames are bought off the shelf from the large Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturers. Very few framesets are produced under license. The intellectual property terms of those licenses are often limited to 12-24 months.

So, there's little or no theft involved (outside of the obvious non-Pinarello Chinarello's). And no cheating or guilt in purchasing these frames.

 

[JayKosta]

...
Most cheap Chinese frames are not Chinarello clone frames. They are competently manufactured and engineered framesets capable of competing equally with the brands marketed in glossy magazines in North America and Europe.
...

===============================
If the frame (or part) has not been improperly copied from 'name brand' or improperly obtained, then I agree that purchasing them is not an 'ethical' problem.

(obviously) I haven't done a lot of research into Chinese frames, but it seemed to me that the ones I saw on the internet were 'clones'.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[DirtyWorks]

Despite what bike companies marketing departments would have you believe, the engineering of a bike frame is not rocket science. And most bike companies low and middle end frames are bought off the shelf from the large Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturers. Very few framesets are produced under license. The intellectual property terms of those licenses are often limited to 12-24 months.

Well, there is some craft to building a bike. It's just that the craft resides in China/Taiwan. Otherwise, one of my biggest pet peeves is flippers using "R&D" to resell bikes. Felt, I'm looking at you.

 

[BroDeal]

Well, there is some craft to building a bike. It's just that the craft resides in China/Taiwan. Otherwise, one of my biggest pet peeves is flippers using "R&D" to resell bikes. Felt, I'm looking at you.

Felt? Check out Blue. At the expo of a triathlon I got ahold of a Blue catalog. It was hilarious. It was like a rich guy decided that he wanted his own instant bike company, went to a trade show in Taiwan, and walked through the joint while pointing out frames, components, and schwag that he wanted the logo on. Aside from their bikes they had their own component brand so they could be like Trek and Cannondale; at least I will give Specialized credit for putting their own name on everything they "make.". A generous assortment of generic gear, like transition bags, all with a Blue logo was also included. It was a completely phony company.

 

[Race Radio]

I travel a lot, mostly international. I am always surprised at the shops I see, especially in the home of the sport.

Holland and Belgium have some large shops, but these are often filled with commuter and kids gear. Italy....it is often funny how small the shops are. The main focus is service. A few frames and even fewer clothes...... But they usually have the chain or cassette you need.

I remember when 11 first came out. A buddy was in Rome on business and was determined to get a groupo. For a big city Rome has very few shops. He walked into a tiny shop and asked about where he could get a groupo.....he was taken to a basement FILLED with brand new Record and Super Record Groupo's. He said they had at least 100 of them. He bought SR for the same as Maestro in the UK

A large percentage of frames I see in Italy are Chinese frames with a shop sticker, a bike bought through a team or club, or some super bling ride. The more bling the ride usually the slower the rider.

It seems that most get their kit from a team or club. Also any race or GF has stands selling the latest in Pro team gear, rain jackets, socks, etc. Sure, you see stuff in shops but I seldom see anything like the superstores you see in the US.

Ultimately these shops thrive on keeping their footprint small and providing great service.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Felt? Check out Blue. At the expo of a triathlon I got ahold of a Blue catalog. It was hilarious. It was like a rich guy decided that he wanted his own instant bike company, went to a trade show in Taiwan, and walked through the joint while pointing out frames, components, and schwag that he wanted the logo on. Aside from their bikes they had their own component brand so they could be like Trek and Cannondale; at least I will give Specialized credit for putting their own name on everything they "make.". A generous assortment of generic gear, like transition bags, all with a Blue logo was also included. It was a completely phony company.

Ok, let me tell you a bit about Blue. They started a few years ago, basically just like you said. They bought a bunch of stuff from Trigon, a Taiwanese company. I know that's what they had, because I bought a few blank frames straight from the factory in Taiwan and they were exactly like Blue. Along with my frames, I received a Trigon catalog. In there, you could pick out the tubing design, forks, ISP, etc. They started a components company. I forget what that was called. They just sourced stuff from Gigantex and slapped their name on there. Nothing original. 100% marketing.

Just like Rosetti, Vivelo, Douglas, Foundry, etc. These companies just slap a label on Chinese/Taiwanese frames. So, why are you as a customer paying so much less? Because a lot of these companies (e.g., Flybike) don't know much about advanced carbon fiber lay-up. They know the basics, so they use the basics: T700 fiber. They don't know how to use T1000 to build sub 950 gram frames. I'm not saying they're bad at all. A lot of that stuff is good, solid stuff.

 

[Parera]

http://www.bicycling.com/gearfinderproductdetail?gfid=13025

This cracked me up when I saw it the first time, and hearing the name Blue reminded me of this little "anomaly." Look at the number of reviews for this $7800 Blue whatever. If you have ever browsed bike reviews at Bicycling, you will know there are 0-2 user reviews on average. Then here is Blue's premier bike, 29 reviews all 5 stars. If you take the time to read them it seems like someone from Blue just wrote a bunch of reviews to pat themselves on the back. Too funny.

 

[BroDeal]

http://www.bicycling.com/gearfinderproductdetail?gfid=13025

This cracked me up when I saw it the first time, and hearing the name Blue reminded me of this little "anomaly." Look at the number of reviews for this $7800 Blue whatever...

$7800 for a Blue? Does it have components made from gold? The a-holes that run these bike companies should die a horrible death that would scare the wrappings off Bubba Ho-Tep. It is brazen thievery to charge that type of markup on their catalog products. It is a business model that relies on stupid customers. I guess P.T. Barnum was right. There is one born every minute...and they grow up to become cyclists.

 

[Parera]

$7800 for a Blue? Does it have components made from gold? The a-holes that run these bike companies should die a horrible death that would scare the wrappings off Bubba Ho-Tep for having the brazen thievery to charge that type of markup on their catalog products.

According to their site they are charging $3200 for a frame. Amazing.

edit: and $7950 with a SRAM RED build.

 

[Race Radio]

According to their site they are charging $3200 for a frame. Amazing.

Gotta hand it to them, that takes some giant balls

 

[DirtyWorks]

According to their site they are charging $3200 for a frame. Amazing.

edit: and $7950 with a SRAM RED build.

C'mon now, Marketing is the crowning achievement in America right now. Why do you hate America?

The cruel irony here is I bet Blue has a decent shop program. Which only reinforces why the shop owner who started this whole thread has it so hard.

Finally, I'll see your Blue and raise you a Ritte. The list of flippers is too long. It's almost sad considering guys like Russ Denny keep churning them out in relative obscurity. check the list of brands he's built. http://www.russdennybicycles.com/#!__page-2

 

[Parera]

I travel a lot, mostly international. I am always surprised at the shops I see, especially in the home of the sport.

Holland and Belgium have some large shops, but these are often filled with commuter and kids gear. Italy....it is often funny how small the shops are. The main focus is service. A few frames and even fewer clothes...... But they usually have the chain or cassette you need.

...

Your post reminded me of a Bicycling magazine interview with Alberto Contador:

Bicycling: Do you remember your first contact with the sport, when you first saw a bicycle race or became interested in cycling?

Contador: That was back when I was like 12 years old, watching Miguel Indurain winning the Tour de France on TV with my brother Fran. I think it was Miguel’s fourth victory. I wanted to do it, to cycle, but I just couldn’t. My family just didn’t have a lot money. They couldn’t buy us bikes. So, like every Spanish kid, I started out with football, then got into athletics, because there were no costs involved.

Bicycling: Do you remember your first bike?

Contador: Oh yes. It was a really old Orbea that barely worked. I mean, I actually had to use two hands to brake. But I was just happy to have a bike, and I remember drilling holes in the frame so that I could have internal cables. See I was already into performance!

Anyway, I just started riding and riding. I remember my **** hurting so much from the saddle that my mom took the shoulder pads out of one of her blouses and stitched them into my shorts. My first cycling shorts were homemade. And when it got cold, I took a pair of socks, cut off the toes, and used them for arm warmers.

If you used old socks as arm warmers, even as a kid, in the U.S., there would be some awfully cruel sneers directed your way.

This is where my frustration with cycling comes in; it seems like it's such an exercise in 1) showing others how much disposable income you have and 2) deluding ourselves into believing that a single purchase elevate us from our current performance. These attitudes make us lose sight that we should just be riding a bike because it's fun. However, given the blitz of marketing we must endure, we buy into the notion that even paying $2000 for a groupset is acceptable and completely rational, for an amateur racer to invest their money in. And given the pervasive acceptance of these "costs" you're basically inviting people who can't easily afford these prices to cut corners and exploit every possible gap in a manufacturer's distribution model.

 

[bc_hills]

This is where my frustration with cycling comes in; it seems like it's such an exercise in 1) showing others how much disposable income you have and 2) deluding ourselves into believing that a single purchase elevate us from our current performance. These attitudes make us lose sight that we should just be riding a bike because it's fun. However, given the blitz of marketing we must endure, we buy into the notion that even paying $2000 for a groupset is acceptable and completely rational, for an amateur racer to invest their money in. And given the pervasive acceptance of these "costs" you're basically inviting people who can't easily afford these prices to cut corners and exploit every possible gap in a manufacturer's distribution model.

I completely agree with every word above following point "2" but I don't think that the cynicism suggested in your first point is really that pervasive. Your conclusion is bang on.

It's delusional to believe that dura ace is faster than 105, but it's also market dogma. It'll never change; that's the way it is in any gear intensive sport. Look at skiing. Every year the new gear is so much better than last year's gear you wonder how anybody made it down anything before.

But at least with skiing the gear has made a difference. High end skiing today is a totally different game than it was 20 years ago. Same thing with mountain biking. But road riding? Have things changed that much in 20 years? For 99 % of the population, I'd guess that a $1500 bike would provide the same performance as a $4000 bike.

 

[Boeing]

Your post reminded me of a Bicycling magazine interview with Alberto Contador:



If you used old socks as arm warmers, even as a kid, in the U.S., there would be some awfully cruel sneers directed your way.

This is where my frustration with cycling comes in; it seems like it's such an exercise in 1) showing others how much disposable income you have and 2) deluding ourselves into believing that a single purchase elevate us from our current performance. These attitudes make us lose sight that we should just be riding a bike because it's fun. However, given the blitz of marketing we must endure, we buy into the notion that even paying $2000 for a groupset is acceptable and completely rational, for an amateur racer to invest their money in. And given the pervasive acceptance of these "costs" you're basically inviting people who can't easily afford these prices to cut corners and exploit every possible gap in a manufacturer's distribution model.

Point one and 2 are completely irrelevant to this discussion and a bunch of humanistic hogwash to boot.

 

[Boeing]

I travel a lot, mostly international. I am always surprised at the shops I see, especially in the home of the sport.

Holland and Belgium have some large shops, but these are often filled with commuter and kids gear. Italy....it is often funny how small the shops are. The main focus is service. A few frames and even fewer clothes...... But they usually have the chain or cassette you need.

I remember when 11 first came out. A buddy was in Rome on business and was determined to get a groupo. For a big city Rome has very few shops. He walked into a tiny shop and asked about where he could get a groupo.....he was taken to a basement FILLED with brand new Record and Super Record Groupo's. He said they had at least 100 of them. He bought SR for the same as Maestro in the UK

A large percentage of frames I see in Italy are Chinese frames with a shop sticker, a bike bought through a team or club, or some super bling ride. The more bling the ride usually the slower the rider.

It seems that most get their kit from a team or club. Also any race or GF has stands selling the latest in Pro team gear, rain jackets, socks, etc. Sure, you see stuff in shops but I seldom see anything like the superstores you see in the US.

Ultimately these shops thrive on keeping their footprint small and providing great service.

I am not sure where the point of this thread is going but I share your experience

I have spent a lot of time in Europe, Australia and NZ. Family and business in all. Since the mid 1980's. Your point is dead on.

I remember my first trip to Europe trying to find a Bianchi Dealer so I could see isles lined with Celeste Green. Like the shop here in LA was Lined with Specialized Allezs, Coicc, Bianchi, and Eddy Merckx. None.

Ask the locals the best shop and when I got there it was one frame and a wheel builder with a single pro jersey and a Campy decal in the window and a line of Mixte type cruisers in repair. I drove miles. always the same. special order the high end. Frame companies marketed top end through local shop owner/employee purchase and elite riders and put the mass lower end bikes with ASDA type buying groups.

which I found quite odd considering the European brands here in the states had certain demands as to the number of bikes they wanted on the floor in a shop. (In fact Look just killed their market share here in SoCal this season with similar demands 'x amount of bike or we pull our Brand' type mentality and NO EE purchase!!!!) net result + no Looks flying up and back on PCH. I have a theory (of which I can not document a sample survey): here in so cal anyway, if you don't see the elite top end bikes on the road locally you won't buy one. Look blew it and overlooked market shift

Rambling aside, many of the specialty shops in socal now carry fewer merchandise in store and rely on service and special order as you know (and are surviving) the ones making money don't resist the internet buyer when they bring their parts in to be fitted btw