- May 15, 2011
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In the first case I am assessing who performed best this past week, and in the second case I am looking at how two different riders will be regarded years from now.DFA123 said:It seems like Valverde is judged by different criteria than the rest
- May 15, 2011
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Sure. But don't bring up the UCI WT ranking as proof Valverde and Rodriguez (as much as I like him) are greater cyclists than Cancellara, Boonen and Contador.Fernandez said:
- Apr 12, 2015
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GT >
Monument or Worlds >
GT podium >
High-tier classic >
High-tier stage race >
GT stage win >
Smaller classic >
Smaller stage race >
Right?
Monument or Worlds >
GT podium >
High-tier classic >
High-tier stage race >
GT stage win >
Smaller classic >
Smaller stage race >
Right?
- Jun 14, 2010
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Saying "UCI ranking is better cos I support Spain and Spain wins it" isn't an argument.
Cq ranking actually rewards consistency even more than UCI ranking. And it might please you to know Valverde won it 3 times as well.
cq ranking is a million times better.Fernandez said:Panda Claws said:Fernandez said:
Do you seriously think that this ranking is an objective one?
100 points for Tour Down Under and 100 points for RVV. So good!
Philippe Gilbert is the only classic rider that managed to have a chance on this ranking, and that was in 2011 form.
CQranking is better, at least and that ranking manages to undervalue Fabian Cancellara quite immensely.
It depends the point of view, i guess you would like it more if your favourite rider had won it one or more times. As a spanish, i like it much because we won it seven of the ten times.
But apart from that, the UCI ranking rewards a consistency through a entire season and not just riders who peaks for two or three one day races in a year.
Saying "UCI ranking is better cos I support Spain and Spain wins it" isn't an argument.
Cq ranking actually rewards consistency even more than UCI ranking. And it might please you to know Valverde won it 3 times as well.
Re: Re:
Procyclingstats is also a good ranking, and guess what? Valverde uses to be also at the top there. Coincidence?
The Hitch said:cq ranking is a million times better.Fernandez said:Panda Claws said:Fernandez said:
Do you seriously think that this ranking is an objective one?
100 points for Tour Down Under and 100 points for RVV. So good!
Philippe Gilbert is the only classic rider that managed to have a chance on this ranking, and that was in 2011 form.
CQranking is better, at least and that ranking manages to undervalue Fabian Cancellara quite immensely.
It depends the point of view, i guess you would like it more if your favourite rider had won it one or more times. As a spanish, i like it much because we won it seven of the ten times.
But apart from that, the UCI ranking rewards a consistency through a entire season and not just riders who peaks for two or three one day races in a year.
Saying "UCI ranking is better cos I support Spain and Spain wins it" isn't an argument.
Cq ranking actually rewards consistency even more than UCI ranking. And it might please you to know Valverde won it 3 times as well.
Procyclingstats is also a good ranking, and guess what? Valverde uses to be also at the top there. Coincidence?
- Aug 31, 2012
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We should have a long, rational deliberation until we converge on the true, ultimate criteria of cycling greatness.
Step 1: Determine numerical values for every race and ever placing in every race.
Step 2: Apply weights to these scores that capture, era and competition faced, how the race was won and other factors we deem significant.
Step 3: Finally, we would have to specify a palmares function that takes as input these weighted scores and turns them into an overall number of greatness. This function would take into account things like how winning worlds could outweigh winning a monument, but adding another worlds when not having a monument would be outweighed by adding a monument. Or how winning two GTs in one year is better than the same GTs in two years.
Step 1: Determine numerical values for every race and ever placing in every race.
Step 2: Apply weights to these scores that capture, era and competition faced, how the race was won and other factors we deem significant.
Step 3: Finally, we would have to specify a palmares function that takes as input these weighted scores and turns them into an overall number of greatness. This function would take into account things like how winning worlds could outweigh winning a monument, but adding another worlds when not having a monument would be outweighed by adding a monument. Or how winning two GTs in one year is better than the same GTs in two years.
- Jul 12, 2012
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Re:
Not his biggest fan but deserves a place in the top 10, name me 10 currently active riders who've achieved more than him?
therhodeo said:
Not his biggest fan but deserves a place in the top 10, name me 10 currently active riders who've achieved more than him?
- Apr 12, 2015
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The rank list should be something like this:
Tour
Giro
Vuelta
Roubaix
Worlds
Liege
Flanders
Sanremo
Lombardia
Then it's getting harder. For example what's better, winning Paris-Nice or Flèche Wallonne?
Tour
Giro
Vuelta
Roubaix
Worlds
Liege
Flanders
Sanremo
Lombardia
Then it's getting harder. For example what's better, winning Paris-Nice or Flèche Wallonne?
- Apr 12, 2015
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So you would say winning Paris-Nice or Pais Vasco should rank higher than winning let's say Ghent Wevelgem or Amstel Gold Race?
Carols said:Velolover2 said:
No not IMO
GT >
Monument or Worlds >
GT podium >
High-tier stage race >
High-tier classic >
GT stage win > *depending on the stage. Certain mountain stages in GTs carry their own legacy.
Smaller stage race >
Smaller classic
So you would say winning Paris-Nice or Pais Vasco should rank higher than winning let's say Ghent Wevelgem or Amstel Gold Race?
Re: Re:
I know he just retired, but if he was still active in 2015, he would certainly be up there.Angliru said:
- Mar 20, 2010
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Yes, it depends on the value assigned to being good over multiple days vs. one day. I can say that having followed this sport for over 50 years the names that are remembered and talked about have always been stage racers, especially those that win GTs over the Roger De Vlaemincks of the world. But then I am in the US so it may be quite different in Europe the cradle of cycling where classic racing and racers are given much more weight?
Velolover2 said:Carols said:Velolover2 said:
No not IMO
GT >
Monument or Worlds >
GT podium >
High-tier stage race >
High-tier classic >
GT stage win > *depending on the stage. Certain mountain stages in GTs carry their own legacy.
Smaller stage race >
Smaller classic
So you would say winning Paris-Nice or Pais Vasco should rank higher than winning let's say Ghent Wevelgem or Amstel Gold Race?
Yes, it depends on the value assigned to being good over multiple days vs. one day. I can say that having followed this sport for over 50 years the names that are remembered and talked about have always been stage racers, especially those that win GTs over the Roger De Vlaemincks of the world. But then I am in the US so it may be quite different in Europe the cradle of cycling where classic racing and racers are given much more weight?
- Mar 19, 2009
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Alaphillippe rode a better week for sure. His 7th, 2nd, 2nd is better than Kwia's 1st, 21st, 33rd, particularly since Kwia is WC and came in as a big favorite while Ala had never even participated in FW or LBL.
And your example of 5 big wins, 50 podiums v 20 big wins, 10 podiums is rather extreme. I'd take 10 big wins, 30 podiums over 15 big wins and 10 podums for sure.
LaFlorecita said:
Alaphillippe rode a better week for sure. His 7th, 2nd, 2nd is better than Kwia's 1st, 21st, 33rd, particularly since Kwia is WC and came in as a big favorite while Ala had never even participated in FW or LBL.
And your example of 5 big wins, 50 podiums v 20 big wins, 10 podiums is rather extreme. I'd take 10 big wins, 30 podiums over 15 big wins and 10 podums for sure.
- Feb 23, 2014
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Do you think he deserves a top 10 with or without his track palmares? I'd agree with you if we include his track record. Without that he MIGHT be 10th...just scratching the surface. Talking about big road achievements he only has 1 gt, 1 Olympic gold and 1 worlds gold.
I'd place these guys ahead of him.
AC (6/8 gt's)
Valverde (1 gt, 3 monuments, 3 FW)
Boonen (7 monuments, 1 worlds gold, 14 classics)
Cancellara (7 monuments, 1 Olympic gold, 4 world golds, 3 classics)
Cavendish (43 gt stage wins, 1 worlds gold, 1 monument)
Petacchi (48 gt stage wins, 1 monument, 1 classic)
Nibali (3 gt's)
Gilbert (3 monuments, 4 classics, 1 worlds gold)
Cunego (1 gt, 3 monuments, 1 classic)
There's 9 riders...So ya he just manages to get in there in my book.
Pricey_sky said:
Do you think he deserves a top 10 with or without his track palmares? I'd agree with you if we include his track record. Without that he MIGHT be 10th...just scratching the surface. Talking about big road achievements he only has 1 gt, 1 Olympic gold and 1 worlds gold.
I'd place these guys ahead of him.
AC (6/8 gt's)
Valverde (1 gt, 3 monuments, 3 FW)
Boonen (7 monuments, 1 worlds gold, 14 classics)
Cancellara (7 monuments, 1 Olympic gold, 4 world golds, 3 classics)
Cavendish (43 gt stage wins, 1 worlds gold, 1 monument)
Petacchi (48 gt stage wins, 1 monument, 1 classic)
Nibali (3 gt's)
Gilbert (3 monuments, 4 classics, 1 worlds gold)
Cunego (1 gt, 3 monuments, 1 classic)
There's 9 riders...So ya he just manages to get in there in my book.
In no order - Gilbert, Rebellin, Contador, Boonen, Cancellara, Nibali, Valverde, Cavendish and Petacchi.
No doubt the likes of Degenkolb and Kittel over time may push out some of these but the ones mentioned will have left the peleton. At the moment these are my top 10, a mixture of sprinters, classic riders and GT specialists.
Whilst I am not a fan of the man, I think Valverde is an amazing all-rounder and Boonen and Cancellara are at the very very top.
No doubt the likes of Degenkolb and Kittel over time may push out some of these but the ones mentioned will have left the peleton. At the moment these are my top 10, a mixture of sprinters, classic riders and GT specialists.
Whilst I am not a fan of the man, I think Valverde is an amazing all-rounder and Boonen and Cancellara are at the very very top.
- Jul 12, 2012
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As you have said even on road palmares he probably just about sneaks a top 10 especially if you include his WT stage race wins (2xDauphine, Paris-Nice, Romandie). He would certainly be higher up if we include track too.
Jspear said:
As you have said even on road palmares he probably just about sneaks a top 10 especially if you include his WT stage race wins (2xDauphine, Paris-Nice, Romandie). He would certainly be higher up if we include track too.
- May 15, 2011
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so of course I use an extreme example
My point was, that greatness is determined by wins not by podiumsjaylew said:
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