Greg LeMond

[cycledp]

Downhill ITT.

In addition to being downhill, I think it was much shorter than other ITTs. Could be wrong about that, but perhaps someone who knows more about it could fill us in.

 

[TopCarbon]

15 miles long.

short by tour standards

 

[woodburn]

Moose, whether the messages here are being posted by the same guy or by paid plants or not, some of the points are worth addressing no? face it, the usa is a society where those who are most vocal against something are often later proven to be guilty of what they claimed to be against. We see it time and time again with conservative family-value anti-gay politicians who are themselves gay and family-value politicians or preachers who get caught cheating or paying hookers or whatever.

Does Lemond fall into this type of personality? I don't know. But we have to admit that for a guy who technically should have no dog in the hunt, he is awfully over the top in his "participation". Is it out of guilt for his own actions? Or is he just trying to regain his reputation as the best american ever? I just can't figure out why he needs to place himself in the middle of all this.

If Lemond stays quiet then who has the ability to generate discussion about doping? Name me another person with his stature that has stepped forward? Maybe it is because Lance has tried to destroy him that people like Indurain and others remain in the shadows. Or maybe their closet is full of skeletons, too.

 

[woodburn]

I love Cycling News, I am an avid supporter of drug free sport, but geez, I am so sick of reading his witch hunting accusations every single day. Its like he has a vendetta against Armstrong and anyone else associated with him...

Greg please, its enough, stick to supporting drug free sport, and stop the witch hunting, how long does it have to continue for, it puts more of a damper on things than actually letting the drug testers do their stuff and have their say.

Its 2010 now and we are still living in the 90's with you. Why dont you ask Senator Schwartzenegger what he used to win a number of Mr Olympias, and what about Carl Lewis and what about.......the list can go on.

really one can only read so much and then it just becomes a little bit of an overkill, time to move on.

You are such a big fan that you joined this month and have made 2 posts.

 

[TopCarbon]

I love Cycling News, I am an avid supporter of drug free sport, but geez, I am so sick of reading his witch hunting accusations every single day. Its like he has a vendetta against Armstrong and anyone else associated with him...

Greg please, its enough, stick to supporting drug free sport, and stop the witch hunting, how long does it have to continue for, it puts more of a damper on things than actually letting the drug testers do their stuff and have their say.

Its 2010 now and we are still living in the 90's with you. Why dont you ask Senator Schwartzenegger what he used to win a number of Mr Olympias, and what about Carl Lewis and what about.......the list can go on.

really one can only read so much and then it just becomes a little bit of an overkill, time to move on.

get your facts straight. If you missed this, I cant take anything you say with credibility.

 

[marinoni]

Moose, whether the messages here are being posted by the same guy or by paid plants or not, some of the points are worth addressing no? face it, the usa is a society where those who are most vocal against something are often later proven to be guilty of what they claimed to be against. We see it time and time again with conservative family-value anti-gay politicians who are themselves gay and family-value politicians or preachers who get caught cheating or paying hookers or whatever.

Does Lemond fall into this type of personality? I don't know. But we have to admit that for a guy who technically should have no dog in the hunt, he is awfully over the top in his "participation". Is it out of guilt for his own actions? Or is he just trying to regain his reputation as the best american ever? I just can't figure out why he needs to place himself in the middle of all this.

Like I said before, why do fanboys always sound like Fox News? No, actually, WE DON'T have to admit that. You admit that. I think he's spot on. This pathetic attempt to garner some sort of consensus where there is none is getting real tiresome. I also constantly see this tactic you're using where you sound, on the surface, reasonable and objective but are actually just getting a dig in at Lemond. That's also classic Fox tactics. The mouth-breathers who watch that channel might fall for it, but it isn't going to fly here. How about you go back to your TV, continue lip-syncing Bill O'Reilly and leave the bike talk to people who know what they're talking about.

 

[Tim_sleepless]

I used to be a Lemond Fan, but baven't we heard all of this before. Lemond is just bitter. Why doesn't he just take his drunken fat bitter self somewhere else. It's not as if he wouldn't have been doping himself. This sort of thing is going to destroy cycling, and is it really worth millions of taxpayers dollars? Armstrong has just done so much for cycling and cancer, there's no used living in the past. He's the most tested athlete in history. And if he was doping, everyone else was too.

note: make sure to reword and reorder above points into your own style. Do not get drawn into a debate after posting.. move on to other threads and forums. Don't forget tomorrow's end of tour conference call at 12pm EST.

 

[flicker]

Like I said before, why do fanboys always sound like Fox News? No, actually, WE DON'T have to admit that. You admit that. I think he's spot on. This pathetic attempt to garner some sort of consensus where there is none is getting real tiresome. I also constantly see this tactic you're using where you sound, on the surface, reasonable and objective but are actually just getting a dig in at Lemond. That's also classic Fox tactics. The mouth-breathers who watch that channel might fall for it, but it isn't going to fly here. How about you go back to your TV, continue lip-syncing Bill O'Reilly and leave the bike talk to people who know what they're talking about.

talk to Jackie Sims about Gregs doping. LeMond hippocrite. Also how come he never went after the witches when he was a top star? Ever think of that Mr. Novinsky?

 

[Polyarmour]

Greg Lemond will become a superhero when Lance goes down.

 

[MacRoadie]

talk to Jackie Sims about Gregs doping. LeMond hippocrite. Also how come he never went after the witches when he was a top star? Ever think of that Mr. Novinsky?

Mr. flucker,

First of all it's Jackie Simes and Jeff Novitzky, and second, why doesn't Jackie come out and say it? He can set up a news conference and Eddie B. and the Seven Eleven team mechanic (who shall remain nameless cause making a name for himself was the only reason he told that same BS story to about 100 of his closest friends) can join him.

I have lost count of the number of times Greg has invited, nee begged, people to come forward to "spill the beans" on him. Jackie's a pretty upright guy, the invitation is there and an injustice will occur if someone doesn't stand up and tell what they know. In fact, why don't you do it? If you know what Jackie has to say, then share it. You KNOW the LA defense machine will be glad to pick up the tab for anyone willing to dish the firt on Lemond.

 

[TopCarbon]

Greg Lemond will become a superhero when Lance goes down.

amen to that

 

[hiero2]

Lemond

I have enjoyed this thread. Some wonderful responses. Thanks for the fun thread.

I remember Lemond when he was a junior. He is a great man because he was a great athlete, and a great bicyclist. Eric Heiden was another man who did a lot, at that time, to promote cycling. They really helped bring cycling into the mainstream. Just like Bobby Fischer did for chess.

Greg was a great cyclist, but he was never a good public personality. He, frankly, doesn't have much public personality at all. He's always come off as something of a whiner, even when he was right. Even tho I'm a "Lemond fanboy forever" I thot he came off like a whiner when he complained about Hinault. Like many bleeding-edge people, there are personality quirks that do not sit well with the public in general. Exemplified by Bobby Fischer, but not by Eric Heiden. I bring up Eric for the contrast - Eric didn't start out in bicycling. He started in speed skating, which, altho an "edge" sport, can be argued to have a stronger base and place in American culture than bicycle racing did at the time. He was less of a "weird boy", and had a lot better public persona.

BTW, I'm also a 'fanboy' for the other North American greats who rode on 7-11. The 7-11 team was a turning point for American cycling. That turn of the tide became obvious when we got to the Postal team, but I believe the 7-11 team marked the turn.

Do I think Lemond had to do drugs to keep up with Fignon, if Fignon was doing drugs? No, absolutely not. Anybody who thinks that does not know the history of the whole doping thing, with steroids and EPO, over the last half century. You have to remember, this stuff only STARTED in the sixties, and that was limited to the Soviet bloc. In the seventies it started penetrating the west, but it was primitive, less effectively applied, not well known, prohibitively expensive, very hard to obtain, and of dubious benefit. In the eighties the situation had only changed slightly. In the 90's, about the time of the advent of EPO, we began to see light year's worth of progress, and performance enhancement ability. So I believe Greg. He preceded the EPO era. Just barely.

For those of you who weren't there - the European scene was believed, by American riders, to be much more inclined to dope (than the American scene), in some form, during the 60's and 70's. Back then, tho, the drugs were different. The effective performance drugs that worked were pretty much limited to speed, in some variety, or broncho-dilators. Anquetil admitted, publicly, doing speed to win. Simpson (probably) died of it.

Lance, on the other hand, has been a much more personable and public champion. He has a much greater capacity as a public personality. Do you really think you'd like Lindsey Lohan or Brittany Spears if you knew them as real people? Or that you would respect their intelligence? But, somehow, they have that ability to convince people, who don't know them, that they are 'cool'. I guess its called charisma.

And, Lance was a champion at a time when you couldn't be a champion if you DIDN'T dope. EPO made sure of that. Steroids have their place, but the steroid knowledge in Lemond's era was so primitive it hardly had the impact we know today. In the 90's we had drugs that were undetectable in testing, and absolutely dominant in performance improvement. EPO and advances in steroid technology. The Mapei boys proved this in the early 90's - doing EPO openly - before it was prohibited.

You know, I have to remember reading a study that asked young athletes if they would knowingly give up 5 years of lifespan in return for an Olympic medal. As I recall, they overwhelmingly answered "yes". Perhaps memory doesn't serve, but when it was increased to 10 or 15 years, I recall that they still answered 'yes'. That thought knocks my socks off.

 

[redtreviso]

I have enjoyed this thread. Some wonderful responses. Thanks for the fun thread.

I remember Lemond when he was a junior. He is a great man because he was a great athlete, and a great bicyclist. Eric Heiden was another man who did a lot, at that time, to promote cycling. They really helped bring cycling into the mainstream. Just like Bobby Fischer did for chess.

Greg was a great cyclist, but he was never a good public personality. He, frankly, doesn't have much public personality at all. He's always come off as something of a whiner, even when he was right. Even tho I'm a "Lemond fanboy forever" I thot he came off like a whiner when he complained about Hinault. Like many bleeding-edge people, there are personality quirks that do not sit well with the public in general. Exemplified by Bobby Fischer, but not by Eric Heiden. I bring up Eric for the contrast - Eric didn't start out in bicycling. He started in speed skating, which, altho an "edge" sport, can be argued to have a stronger base and place in American culture than bicycle racing did at the time. He was less of a "weird boy", and had a lot better public persona.

BTW, I'm also a 'fanboy' for the other North American greats who rode on 7-11. The 7-11 team was a turning point for American cycling. That turn of the tide became obvious when we got to the Postal team, but I believe the 7-11 team marked the turn.

Do I think Lemond had to do drugs to keep up with Fignon, if Fignon was doing drugs? No, absolutely not. Anybody who thinks that does not know the history of the whole doping thing, with steroids and EPO, over the last half century. You have to remember, this stuff only STARTED in the sixties, and that was limited to the Soviet bloc. In the seventies it started penetrating the west, but it was primitive, less effectively applied, not well known, prohibitively expensive, very hard to obtain, and of dubious benefit. In the eighties the situation had only changed slightly. In the 90's, about the time of the advent of EPO, we began to see light year's worth of progress, and performance enhancement ability. So I believe Greg. He preceded the EPO era. Just barely.

For those of you who weren't there - the European scene was believed, by American riders, to be much more inclined to dope (than the American scene), in some form, during the 60's and 70's. Back then, tho, the drugs were different. The effective performance drugs that worked were pretty much limited to speed, in some variety, or broncho-dilators. Anquetil admitted, publicly, doing speed to win. Simpson (probably) died of it.

Lance, on the other hand, has been a much more personable and public champion. He has a much greater capacity as a public personality. Do you really think you'd like Lindsey Lohan or Brittany Spears if you knew them as real people? Or that you would respect their intelligence? But, somehow, they have that ability to convince people, who don't know them, that they are 'cool'. I guess its called charisma.

And, Lance was a champion at a time when you couldn't be a champion if you DIDN'T dope. EPO made sure of that. Steroids have their place, but the steroid knowledge in Lemond's era was so primitive it hardly had the impact we know today. In the 90's we had drugs that were undetectable in testing, and absolutely dominant in performance improvement. EPO and advances in steroid technology. The Mapei boys proved this in the early 90's - doing EPO openly - before it was prohibited.

You know, I have to remember reading a study that asked young athletes if they would knowingly give up 5 years of lifespan in return for an Olympic medal. As I recall, they overwhelmingly answered "yes". Perhaps memory doesn't serve, but when it was increased to 10 or 15 years, I recall that they still answered 'yes'. That thought knocks my socks off.

Lance personable? Lance has acted like a d-bag since before he traded in his speedo.. If anything it took years to find someone to give Lance a script to follow. LeMond on the other hand always said what was on his mind, and at some point bike racing is just not all that interesting to the common man.

As far as the drug eras..The clean riders knew the speed takers would just as likely pop than win. The clean riders had a better chance of riding the next day..(see alexi grewal interviews). After Delgado's probenicid the media described off season training cycles with the use of steroids and the clean up period after.. The rare few actually tried during the tour (Gert-Jan Theunisse).. LeMond complained about the ultra pace circa 92 93 and no one listened..Indurain overperformed but still showed some respect for the tour. Riis threw all that to the wind and opened the door for Armstrong. The difference is like between cheating with too much cappucino and injecting meth-amphetemines. Riis, Ulrich, Pantani and Armstrong ruined the chances of everyone else.

 

[perico]

Lance personable? Lance has acted like a d-bag since before he traded in his speedo.. If anything it took years to find someone to give Lance a script to follow. LeMond on the other hand always said what was on his mind, and at some point bike racing is just not all that interesting to the common man.

As far as the drug eras..The clean riders knew the speed takers would just as likely pop than win. The clean riders had a better chance of riding the next day..(see alexi grewal interviews). After Delgado's probenicid the media described off season training cycles with the use of steroids and the clean up period after.. The rare few actually tried during the tour (Gert-Jan Theunisse).. LeMond complained about the ultra pace circa 92 93 and no one listened..Indurain overperformed but still showed some respect for the tour. Riis threw all that to the wind and opened the door for Armstrong. The difference is like between cheating with too much cappucino and injecting meth-amphetemines. Riis, Ulrich, Pantani and Armstrong ruined the chances of everyone else.

And here's where I get lost, while LeMond was complaining about the speed in 1992-93, Andy Hampsten (a man with an impeccable reputation for being a clean rider) was in the middle of his best Tour run, with top ten finishes in 1991, 1992, and 1993 with a stage win at Alpe d'huez to boot.

 

[Race Radio]

And here's where I get lost, while LeMond was complaining about the speed in 1992-93, Andy Hampsten (a man with an impeccable reputation for being a clean rider) was in the middle of his best Tour run, with top ten finishes in 1991, 1992, and 1993 with a stage win at Alpe d'huez to boot.

Here is Andy's take in a letter to Velonews

I admire Greg's courage to speak his mind on the doping problems that
still plague cycling. Like him, I feel that this problem is out of
hand. Something needs to be done to clean it up, not only for the sake
of the riders' health, but also for the sake of returning our sport to
the truths of human spirit, valor and talent.

The English version of the Eurosport article makes a huge point of
Greg's personal experience with Lance and the resulting conflict.
Obviously, Lance and Greg have their own private relationship. While I
know and respect both of these champions, having raced with both of
them over the years, their personal interaction is none of my
business. Speculating on conflict between the two only distracts from
the bigger and more important issue of doping.

What I found more compelling was the complete Le Monde text. It
clearly shows Greg, who remains unquestionably the father of the
modern era of American cycling champions, standing up and declaring
that professional cycling has been and, regrettably, still is rotten
with drugs.

Greg has put himself into personal and business difficulties by
speaking out and getting involved with the issue of drugs in today's
cycling. Voluntarily placing himself in this position shows me honesty
and bravery far beyond what most of us could muster. LeMond could
instead follow the cycling world's expectations for past champions and
sit around "a fumer le pipe" ('chilling' in cycling slang) in silence,
but, his legitimate concern for the health and lives of today's
athletes and future riders drives him to do what he can to return
cycling to a healthy level. I want to see the same. Since the early
1990s both doping and the medical excesses placed upon riders' health
have gotten out of control.

Most of us will probably need to put aside our Tour time emotions and
resist making the judgment that Greg is trying to gain something
personal or is simply jealous of being eclipsed as the dominant
American cyclist.

I saw Greg race as a champion through the '80s, and into the '90s when
the cycling community as a whole turned a blind eye towards doping and
consciously ignored the onslaught of EPO in the peloton.

Like Greg, I, too, saw what I believe were the effects of EPO when it
entered pro cycling in the early '90s. In the first years it grew from
a few individuals reaping obscene wins from exploiting its "benefits,"
to entire teams relying on it, essentially forcing all but the most
gifted racers to either use EPO to keep their place in cycling, quit
or become just another obscure rider in the group.

I had the honor of racing in eight Tours. Being happily retired, I can
reflect on my small part in that race and enjoy seeing it motivate
kids just as it did me. So like Greg LeMond, I cannot just sit idly by
watching our sport continue to suffer from cheating. It's time to tell
the truth.

Why now? Remember that while the Tour de France is the pinnacle of
cycling, it is also the leading force in fighting drugs in cycling.
Right now, while public attention is still on the Tour, is a good time
to address the problem of doping.

Dr. Michele Ferrari is known to have supported the use of EPO to
increase his riders' performances. In '94, while his riders dominated
the Ardennes Classics, he publicly ridiculed making rules against EPO
saying it was safe to use and should not be made illegal in cycling. I
believe behavior like this and the use of these products should not be
tolerated. Violators should receive meaningful bans from the sport,
bans that significantly outweigh any perceived benefits.

Many aspiring racers have confronted drug use as they rose through the
ranks. Unfortunately, their silent answer to this insanity is often to
quit racing at this level. Otherwise, they risk succumbing to the
conventional wisdom that "since everyone takes drugs to be
competitive, you should too." This must not continue to be the choice
facing promising young racers.

Now, in his retirement, Greg LeMond is fighting to bring racing back
to a natural level of honest riders racing to their limits and living
a long life to talk about it. I am writing to support him in this
fight.

Both Greg and I are involved with a junior racing team, so this matter
continues to concern us as we support and urge kids to go as far as
they can in the sport we love, both for their own personal rewards,
and to keep cycling growing. It is irresponsible for us to encourage
kids to race and potentially turn pro without doing all we can to
change cycling back to a sport where they will not likely be asked to
take drugs that could ultimately destroy their natural good health,
their characters, and their bodies.

Thanks for listening,

Andy Hampsten

 

[hrotha]

Here is Andy's take in a letter to Velonews

Is he implying he gave in to the pressure? Reading between the lines that's what I get.

 

[redtreviso]

Is he implying he gave in to the pressure? Reading between the lines that's what I get.

"""Like Greg, I, too, saw what I believe were the effects of EPO when it
entered pro cycling in the early '90s. In the first years it grew from
a few individuals reaping obscene wins from exploiting its "benefits,"
to entire teams relying on it, essentially forcing all but the most
gifted racers to either use EPO to keep their place in cycling, quit
or become just another obscure rider in the group.""

No...He'd be "the most gifted racers"

BTW that isn't greg's letter

 

[Race Radio]

"""Like Greg, I, too, saw what I believe were the effects of EPO when it
entered pro cycling in the early '90s. In the first years it grew from
a few individuals reaping obscene wins from exploiting its "benefits,"
to entire teams relying on it, essentially forcing all but the most
gifted racers to either use EPO to keep their place in cycling, quit
or become just another obscure rider in the group.""

No...He'd be "the most gifted racers"

BTW that isn't greg's letter

Doh, Jet lag getting to me. I meant Andy

 

[flicker]

Mr. flucker,

First of all it's Jackie Simes and Jeff Novitzky, and second, why doesn't Jackie come out and say it? He can set up a news conference and Eddie B. and the Seven Eleven team mechanic (who shall remain nameless cause making a name for himself was the only reason he told that same BS story to about 100 of his closest friends) can join him.

I have lost count of the number of times Greg has invited, nee begged, people to come forward to "spill the beans" on him. Jackie's a pretty upright guy, the invitation is there and an injustice will occur if someone doesn't stand up and tell what they know. In fact, why don't you do it? If you know what Jackie has to say, then share it. You KNOW the LA defense machine will be glad to pick up the tab for anyone willing to dish the firt on Lemond.

All I am saying is look into it. People I know are split as far as if LeMond is a hippocrite. People who know him or his ex-teamates. Do not put Hampsten in context with LeMond. This is info I have from people who know both.

 

[flicker]

The trip of it is, is when an athlete goes to the high level they always want an edge. You know what that edge is. Mac /r.

 

[richwagmn]

Another LeMond blog entry, another page of "I did this, I did that, I am the greatest, me, me, me" ... I am ready for this guy to just sit in his rocking chair, getting up once in a while to go kick a dog or kid.

There, I feel better now ...

The question is... who's ghost writing for this guy? If you've heard an interview with him, you'll realize he can't focus on one thought for more than 10 seconds yet his writing is pretty good.

 

[D Avoid]

No, I'm not sick of LeMond.

Too many riders paid a high price for doping, and too many are going to still. Did you listen to Fignon? he's dying, plain and simple. How old is he?? How old was Pantani? If that doesn't break yourt heart you're a fool.

Cyclists keep swallowing/injectig stuff that has been untested and is unproven, or has been designed for horses or lab rats, in the elusive search for fame, or because a metaphorical gun has been put to their heads. Cyclists die of it, and it has to stop.

As far as I'm concerned we haven't heard LeMond half as much as he needs to be heard.


Nuff said.

I've just heard Alex Higgins has died, the place I'm in allows me to get the whole of what you are saying. I personally , admire no one nor no thing, except the broken mirror, as it can't lie to me anymore. The price that is paid is symbolised by the child who died in the Middle East last year, Freddy Nolf. No fame, just chasing it and the screaming, ranting Bike Radar nutters demanding I desist, as it was just one of those things, let them grieve. OK then, as there will be another one along shortly.

 

[D Avoid]

The question is... who's ghost writing for this guy? If you've heard an interview with him, you'll realize he can't focus on one thought for more than 10 seconds yet his writing is pretty good.

The writing is completely different from making a speech or an interview, there is no distraction, other than what is going on in your head, how do I know? Snap.

 

[Gcraenen]

Lemond is my 2nd favorite TDF rider right next to Menchov. A true warrior.

Amen brother, I miss the old days when Greg Lemond could tell the whole "specially prepared" peloton to go take a flying leap and still win.