Greg was right

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Benotti69 said:
You need to improve you langauage skills because that was not obvious, d'uh.



Actually Stephen Swart disproved that in 1995 with Motorola. Festina in 98, Mapei.

"you langauage"
Maybe it was a comprehension issue....

What 1995 onwards has to do with LeMond, I have no idea.
What Voets book confirms is the amateur nature of doping in the 70s and 80's.
Not the organised nature.

Cards on the table, I don't believe LeMond doped, but I dont buy into the story that he is the white Knight VS Armstrongs Black Knight.
 
Mar 8, 2010
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VeloCity said:
I have no idea whether or not Lemond doped. I wouldn't be surprised if he did. I said that there wasn't any evidence that he did.

Yeah, Greg knows that, too.
And its an easy and boring, spineless game like that.
But many people still believe in him for their own satisfaction and he is anti-Lance-tool Nr.1.
Deep inside, they can't be that stupid and gullible. They know, but will never admit that to keep up the hypocrisy and hate about Lance.
 
May 26, 2010
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andy1234 said:
Cards on the table, I don't believe LeMond doped, but I dont buy into the story that he is the white Knight VS Armstrongs Black Knight.

Hence you were in here declaring that many many posts ago. :rolleyes:
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
I have absolutely no problem with posters stating opinions but when it is so called opinions thinly disguised as trolling, well i speak out if i think it is appropriate. I am aware of the report icon too. I think this thread was started for one purpose only and was not a constructive one.

If the mods see fit to delete my comments i accept that. Not my forum.

I accept all that but i do think the OP was genuine but it has as expected been used to smear LeMond by a few - I have no problem if they are willing to discuss that issue but I agree their intent is not to do so.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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andy1234 said:
"you langauage"
Maybe it was a comprehension issue....

What 1995 onwards has to do with LeMond, I have no idea.
What Voets book confirms is the amateur nature of doping in the 70s and 80's.
Not the organised nature.

Cards on the table, I don't believe LeMond doped, but I dont buy into the story that he is the white Knight VS Armstrongs Black Knight.

.....a story no-one has put forward.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
I accept all that but i do think the OP was genuine but it has as expected been used to smear LeMond by a few - I have no problem if they are willing to discuss that issue but I agree their intent is not to do so.

I agree, DQ's OP was not intended for the thread to take the direction it has, hence my requests that the thread be brought back on track.

I have no problems debating riders and their habits in the clinic.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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andy1234 said:
Ha, good one.
Ok then - go ahead and name these people who have claimed that LeMond is a White Knight?
Don't worry - its not ad hominen or personal if you say poster X says this (unless of course you make it up and Im not suggesting you would.)

I have no idea if LeMond doped - but I have checked in to his story in the same way as I do with any other and so far I have not found anything on him.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Do you not have the internet?

...jeez looked everywhere for my internet and can't seem to find it...it must have gone out drinking last night and hasn't come home...

...so I guess I'm going to have to rely on my memory. which is fickle at the best of times...

...my recollection is that LeMond beat Hinault once in a TT at the TDF...and that was not really an over-whelming victory on the clock and even less over-whelming when you consider that Hinault was suffered the effects of a broken nose he sustained a few stages earlier...

Cheers

blutto
 
Mar 17, 2009
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patricknd said:
When was the 300,000 offer made?I've heard it mentioned but don't know the particulars

Benotti69 said:
I like LeMond's credibility.

ChrisE said:
Translation: There is no proof of the $300k except what GL says.

Next on National Clinic Enquirer: Greg Lemond comments on Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Stay tuned.

now you see, in my trusting way, i always assumed that claim was from a verifiable source. i think maybe i need to check the veracity of some of the other "facts" i read here.
 
May 18, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
I agree, DQ's OP was not intended for the thread to take the direction it has, hence my requests that the thread be brought back on track.

I have no problems debating riders and their habits in the clinic.

Where did Dave intend for it to go? Does anybody really think a thread like this wouldn't result into what it has? He didn't even post the full quote from GL, which had me comparing Milli Vanilli to LA. ;)

If people are gonna put their voice out into public, like GL has, then he is fair game to look at critically.
 
May 18, 2009
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patricknd said:
now you see, in my trusting way, i always assumed that claim was from a verifiable source. i think maybe i need to check the veracity of some of the other "facts" i read here.

You must not have gotten the memo. :rolleyes:
 
pmcg76 said:
I think LeMonds response was genuine and based on this information, he was disappointed and so were a lot of people. Imagine discovering any top athlete is working with a person intrinsically linked to doping

The only problem was LeMond was honest and didnt toe the Lance line.

that right there is one reason I have respect for LeMond.
 
Feb 22, 2011
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Cobblestoned said:
Yeah, Greg knows that, too.
And its an easy and boring, spineless game like that.
But many people still believe in him for their own satisfaction and he is anti-Lance-tool Nr.1.
Deep inside, they can't be that stupid and gullible. They know, but will never admit that to keep up the hypocrisy and hate about Lance.

I don't know how to break this to you, but one look at facts4lance should be enough to convince anyone that the most significant anti-Lance tool is Lance himself.

Greg Lemond doesn't even podium in the Tour de Anti-Lance.

Rather than arguing whether GL is some kind of hypocrite (we all are in one way or another), it could be constructive to note where he rates in the panoply of anti-Lance tools.

I'd put Greg Lemond as pack fodder.

Oh, he had some time in the breakaway on the first stage, but the peloton caught him on the second climb.
 
Berzin said:
Wanna know the REAL tragedy in all this?

After all is said and done, not one American cyclist who rode in Europe after Lemond retired could say he did it clean, either by strong implication/association or getting caught outright.

Not one.

That is a whole generation of American cyclists who came of age during the Armstrong years, starting with the US national team of the early 1990's.

And they began doping right here. They didn't have to go overseas to become "corrupted" as so many people would like to think.

Ummm...wut?
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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skippythepinhead said:
I don't know how to break this to you, but one look at facts4lance should be enough to convince anyone that the most significant anti-Lance tool is Lance himself.
.

It is not Lance - it is Fabiani

If you read facts4lance you will note:
Statement by Fabiani

Lance is tucked in behind his team mates.
They are the ones doing the work at this point....
 
red_flanders said:
Anyone ever notice there's no debate on forums like this about whether Hampsten doped? That Armstrong fans don't feel the need to speculate on him?

Neither LeMond or Hampsten has one shred of evidence of doping against them, and both have a lot of people in the sport going out of their way to point out they thought they were totally clean.

Only one difference. LeMond dared criticize Armstong.

He's been right about just about everything. All this conversation about him is fueled simply by the insecurity and defensiveness of a those who are made uncomfortable by his stance. Not a fact against LeMond to be found. Not a one.

Thanks.

It is amazing how, like anything about Lance, the dialog is quickly turned to attacking the source and not considering the observation for what it is.

Benotti69 said:
I agree, DQ's OP was not intended for the thread to take the direction it has, hence my requests that the thread be brought back on track.

I have no problems debating riders and their habits in the clinic.

You are right. No, I did not intend for it to take this direction.

If we want to debate whether LeMond doped (for the 10,000th time), then open up another thread.

Greg was among the first - and one of a very few cyclists - to openly question Lance's ties to Ferrari.

Greg was right.

ChrisE said:
Where did Dave intend for it to go? Does anybody really think a thread like this wouldn't result into what it has? He didn't even post the full quote from GL, which had me comparing Milli Vanilli to LA. ;)

If people are gonna put their voice out into public, like GL has, then he is fair game to look at critically.

ChrisE, I have cleaned up after myself on criticizing your tactics.

If you wanted to know where I intended the thread to go, you could have PM'd or posted somewhere near the first page.

It should be obvious that the OP was not about whether LeMond doped.

You say that you believe LA doped, but attacking the messenger is a low tactic frequently employed as a defensive mechanism to try and reduce the credibilty of the messenger in order to try and defuse the strength of the message.

Greg was right.

If Greg were as notorious a doper as Marion Jones or Ben Johnson or Mark McGwire, he would still be right.

His message was accurate.

Try debating that, rather than whether you think the possibility exists that somewhere there is a mote of evidence on Greg doping.

Dave.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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It is important to understand the environment of the sport in the 80’s to understand Greg’s experience.

In the 80’s testing was expanded in the sport. At first the penalties were weak. Often just a time deduction or suspension of a few weeks/months. While there was no OOC testing riders raced far more often and hence were tested often. Given the primitive options at the time most of the previously popular methods could be tested for. This resulted in many positives.
The sport reacted to this in different ways. Some, like Paul Koechli, saw an opportunity. Paul saw that doping was a risk if you ran a team. Cortisone ended many careers early. Steroids caused many connective tissue issues. These days you seldom see these issues but back in the 80’s it was common for a star rider to lose an entire seasons to knee or Achilles problems. Paul found that by reducing the number of racing days combined with advanced training methods could result in victory. Heart Rate monitors and even power meters were new to the game and Paul developed training methods still used today. Adrien Van Diem still uses many of the same programs to train VdV, Miller, and many riders today.

Other teams had a different response to this change. Previously doping had largely been a personal effort. This changed in the late 80’s. PDM hired team doctors to run a sophisticated doping programs. The year prior Greg was riding for PDM and he saw the direction they were heading. They attempted to pressure him into using Testosterone. Greg’s response was to negotiate an early end to his two year contract. This was big news in Europe as it confirmed what many in the sport had known for a long time, that Greg rode clean. It even made in the LA Times

Put yourself in Greg’s position. It took a lot of guts to walk away at that point in his career.

Those who like to pretend that EPO was pervasive in the Peloton in 89, 90, 91 have no idea of what they are talking about. None. Not only was it not well known there was also huge confusion as to how to use it. Many early adopters reacted badly to EPO. Beyond the issues that come with a high Hct many riders found that they reacted adversely to the drug. Some saw that with their body suddenly consumed with producing RBC that EPO made then tired and it took them a few days to recover. This is why the common practice became injections the night prior to the rest day and prior to the race.

The early 90’s was a time of confusion in the sport. I was living in Europe at the time, knew many in the sport. Most were completely confused. They knew something had changed but could not figure out what it was. Greg was puzzled, The 1992 Tour was his hardest ever. Suddenly riders who had trouble finishing the Tour were at the front of the race. The watershed moment was 1994, Gewiss, dominating race after race. With Dr. Ferrari’s help they had perfected the process. Most point to 1994 as the inflection point between rider choice and mandatory.

Greg exited the sport and like many needed time away from it. Many like to pretend that Greg only became vocal about doping when Lance started winning the Tour. Anyone that has been around the sport for more than a few years knows that Greg has talked about the issue for years. Here is an interview from early 1998

http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/lemond98.html

The talent hasn't changed at all. I do think, however, that the Italians have changed the sport in a really bad way. It has become much more medical. There's no doubt that riders are probably fitter now at the beginning of the season. But that started in the mid '80s.

Bicyclist: Medical?

LeMond: Yes, medical.

Bicyclist: Drugs?

LeMond: [hesitates] I don't know that it's drugs exactly...

Bicyclist: Then let me restate the question. Do you feel that drug use is prevalent in the pro peloton?

LeMond: Well, it's hard to say. I don't know if it's drugs, but there are substances. I don't know that I buy the excuse by people who say they didn't perform well in a one-day race because the winners were on drugs. In a one-day race, there's no reason you cannot perform as well as someone taking drugs. EPO (Erythropoeitin, a naturally-ocurring and synthesized hormone that increases red blood cell count) just increases your red blood cells. Here in America you can train at altitude any time you want and get the same benefit from altitude as from EPO. Steroids, on the other hand, accelerate recovery. I went steroid free throughout my whole career. There were always rumors of guys taking stuff, but more than steroids it was the cortisone, the catabolic, not the anabolic. Of course there were tests, and people have been caught with testosterone. The Italians, somewhere in the '80s, figured out how to take small amounts to be on the legal side of it, which does help recovery and would help tremendously in a three week race. I've heard two sides of the drug issue. First of all, you have to understand the doping mentality. I don't think there's a rider in the peloton that prefers to take drugs. It's simply what doing to keep up with competition, and if they think everyone's getting away with it, they feel like they need to use it, too. Half of these guys haven't finished high school, have a wife and three kids at home, and if they don't perform, they won't get paid. The problem with Americans is that our ethics are sometimes a bit nave-don't get me wrong, the American ethic is really good, I like the American attitude, but it doesn't really bite into the reality of situation. I know my old teammate, Eric Boyer, retired because he didn't want to touch the stuff, and I know many other people who made it through clean, such as Andy Hampsten and Steve Bauer. Every rider on La Vie Claire was clean, that was Paul Keochli's big deal to make sure he had a clean team. But I do know in the early '90s there was a huge movement in Italy. Riders that had been racing for six or seven years were suddenly riding really well. To me, that looks a little suspicious. The drug issue is something I often thought about during my career. Toward the end, I always wondered, 'Is everyone taking drugs, while I stay clean, causing me to perform so poorly?' But there wasn't a drug in the world that would've helped me. One thing I do know is that a teammate of mine went to an Italian team and he died of a heart attack a year later. It was a little disappointing. I do think the riders are trying to say, 'Hey, we're for control testing.' The riders are the ones who pushed for the haematocrit level tests, so people would stay within the limits
.

LeMond was one of Lance’s biggest supporters for his first 2 wins. When it was made public that Armstrong had been working with Ferrari Greg had the same feeling that many in the sport had. It was like a punch to the stomach. When Greg said the following fans of the sport agreed with him

When Lance won the prologue to the 1999 Tour I was close to tears, but when I heard he was working with Michele Ferrari I was devastated. In the light of Lance's relationship with Ferrari, I just don't want to comment on this year's Tour. This is not sour grapes. I'm disappointed in Lance, that's all it is

The response from Armstrong? He launched a campaign to smear Greg. There was a flood of articles that depicted Greg as a wacko. Message boards were flooded with new members with the same talking points….fat, bitter, jealous. Read the 2-3 comments Greg made back then you realize how absurd this reaction was. Lance threaten Greg, promising to find “10 people who will say you used EPO”. 10 years later, despite offers of 100’s of thousands of $$$ he has been unsuccessful. Not one former teammate, support staff, friend, etc has said that Greg doped. In fact quite the opposite, time after time those that were close to Greg during his career have said he rode clean.

The Trek case made it clear that Armstrong interfered with Greg’s primary source of income, his deal with Trek. Armstrong made a claim to a table full of people that he was going to make a call to Burke and sink Greg. Trek stopped supporting Greg’s line of bikes years before their agreement was up. They ignored multiple requests from distributors for product.

For almost a decade Armstrong harassed Greg. The best he can hope for now is to recover a portion of his reputation that Armstrong and his buddies worked so hard to shred
 
I Watch Cycling In July said:
I think Greg started changing his tune after LA's 2001 victor, when LA'S relationship with Ferrari was discovered.

It's really creepy that the narrative which prevailed then was Lemond is jealous and bitter instead of Lemond has every reason to suspect Armstrong, (e.g. Dodgy TUE, ET power numbers, and now Ferrari.)
...

Thanks for that reminder regarding Ferrari. How could I forget that, right? ;)

I think it was during the 2000 Tour when the suspicions about LAs relation to Ferrari may have started. 2000 was the year of the famous "gift" of LA to Pantani on the Ventoux. Then on stage 16 to Morzine Pantani went on a mission to explode the peloton (mainly LA), during which LA cracked on the Joux Plane. LA later said, in defense of USPS ppl contacting Ferrari DURING stage 16, that the communication with Ferrari was only to find out just how hard Marco could go.

I think somewhere Filppo Simeoni had something to say about the LA/Ferrari relationship.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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RR - fantastic summation, and great link to an interview I've never seen before. Wonder if someone is going to talk to Greg after the 60 Minutes piece?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Roadent said:
RR - fantastic summation, and great link to an interview I've never seen before. Wonder if someone is going to talk to Greg after the 60 Minutes piece?

RR, my 5th hand conception of La Vie Claires Tapie outfit, was they were not clean from top to bottom. Perhaps not Greg, but I heard Tapie's teams weren't kosher.

Was my conception incorrect?'
 
May 18, 2009
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D-Queued said:
ChrisE, I have cleaned up after myself on criticizing your tactics.

If you wanted to know where I intended the thread to go, you could have PM'd or posted somewhere near the first page.

It should be obvious that the OP was not about whether LeMond doped.

You say that you believe LA doped, but attacking the messenger is a low tactic frequently employed as a defensive mechanism to try and reduce the credibilty of the messenger in order to try and defuse the strength of the message.

Greg was right.

If Greg were as notorious a doper as Marion Jones or Ben Johnson or Mark McGwire, he would still be right.

His message was accurate.

Try debating that, rather than whether you think the possibility exists that somewhere there is a mote of evidence on Greg doping.

Dave.

OK, to your subject since it appears to be qualified now with the full quote.

I've said upthread I don't think he is the biggest fraud period (jokingly), and I will go so far as to say now seriously I don't believe a doper beating other dopers constitutes a fraud as GL describes it in sport. You and your hero need to get some perspective. If you want to extrapolate that outside of sport then have at it.

Start another thread with correct quotes this time and clear subject matter so those of us that tend to stray off-topic won't get in trouble by the DQ and benotti police. Don't throw some half *** quote up there and then list a bunch of your buddies, and expect dolts like me to follow with what you are up to.

Is that the end of the thread now? Is this the type of answer you really wanted to hear?

Why don't you put up a pole and ask if GL was right about LA being the biggest fraud in sports or tiddly-winks or whatever and let's cut out all of this off-topic ranting.
 
Race Radio said:
It is important to understand the environment of the sport in the 80’s to understand Greg’s experience.

... Paul found that by reducing the number of racing days combined with advanced training methods could result in victory.
...
Many early adopters reacted badly to EPO.
...

Thanks RR, excellent summary.

Some further confirming points.

1. Periodization was developed in the '70s by Tudor Bompa (one of my coaches) and spread to other sports in the 80s. This not only resulted in big gains, but is/was synergistic with complex doping programs that incorporate EPO.

2. One early adopter (multiple TdF finisher) left LeMond's team, with no EPO pressure/use, to join another team where EPO was de rigeur. He died within the year. He keeled over while playing soccer in his back yard with his young son, sending a strong emotion-laden message to his former teammates.

It may be possible that LeMond's team may ultimately have followed the EPO bandwagon. But, the example of a former teammates death along with a culture of not doping (as you well articulated) likely closed the door forever on that possibility.

EPO is not/was not as safe as orange juice. Some people have firsthand and possibly life-changing memories of that toll.

Dave.
 

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