Hall of Shame in Doping | Inaugural Edition

[TubularBills]

Re:

My top 10:

10-Pantani: incredible talent but incredibly juiced
9-Ullrich: just a little bit less of a talent, the same juice as above
8-Contador: a grimpeur who beat Cancellara in a TT. The king of CERA's years
7-Vino: Ivan Drago
6-Basso: Riis' perfect disciple. Even Simoni called him an alien.
5-Rominger Ferrari's Frankenstein:
4-Riis: Mr. 60%
3-Indurain: 188cm, 80kg and still always there in the mountains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANGbb1Yz8Hw
2-Armstrong: I don't think he doped much more than the others but his attitude, the fact that he deceived thousands of sick people and what he did to Simeoni put him right in spot nr.2
1-Froome: the weakest rider who has ever managed to win a GT. A donkey turned into a horse. Never seen anything like this even during the golden era of EPO

Awesome!

Expansion...

5-Rominger Ferrari's Frankenstein!

Absolutely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYeaI8SZ7SU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KBsm58YZ2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfplDTiIfFA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYajBK8jiTU

 

[franic]

Re: Re:

My top 10:

10-Pantani: incredible talent but incredibly juiced
9-Ullrich: just a little bit less of a talent, the same juice as above
8-Contador: a grimpeur who beat Cancellara in a TT. The king of CERA's years
7-Vino: Ivan Drago
6-Basso: Riis' perfect disciple. Even Simoni called him an alien.
5-Rominger Ferrari's Frankenstein:
4-Riis: Mr. 60%
3-Indurain: 188cm, 80kg and still always there in the mountains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANGbb1Yz8Hw
2-Armstrong: I don't think he doped much more than the others but his attitude, the fact that he deceived thousands of sick people and what he did to Simeoni put him right in spot nr.2
1-Froome: the weakest rider who has ever managed to win a GT. A donkey turned into a horse. Never seen anything like this even during the golden era of EPO

Awesome!

Expansion...

5-Rominger Ferrari's Frankenstein!

Absolutely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYeaI8SZ7SU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KBsm58YZ2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfplDTiIfFA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYajBK8jiTU

Nice memories!

Maybe I should have added this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EIgILmV6M4
who managed to be 1.589Km faster than this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkfkMTEqQak
and 1.166km than a doper without fault (?) at 1887 m of altitude.

 

[Tim Booth]

Re: Re:

Why do people feel the need to do this? While I wouldn't be shocked to learn he used PED's (it's cycling, afterall) I've seen zero actual evidence that he did. This just seems like a baseless charge.

Many people are unable to accept that a cyclist can be so far superior to most of his contemporaries.

Funny that 2 of the most daring dopers of the last 30 years have not been named :
MAURO GIANETTI (PFC)
and
ARMAND DE LAS CUEVAS (everything goes, incredible that he survived it).
I would put those 2 at the very top, on a par with Ricco.[/quote]
talking of Ricco, whatever happened to the Cobra? - he's making ice cream in Tenerife
https://www.oasport.it/2019/01/riccardo-ricco-faccio-i-gelati-e-sono-felice-ciclismo-pulito-non-e-cambiato-molto-e-il-livello-e-piu-basso-a-40-anni-voglio-tornare/

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

My top 10:

10-Pantani: incredible talent but incredibly juiced
9-Ullrich: just a little bit less of a talent, the same juice as above
8-Contador: a grimpeur who beat Cancellara in a TT. The king of CERA's years
7-Vino: Ivan Drago
6-Basso: Riis' perfect disciple. Even Simoni called him an alien.
5-Rominger: Ferrari's Frankenstein
4-Riis: Mr. 60%
3-Indurain: 188cm, 80kg and still always there in the mountains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANGbb1Yz8Hw
2-Armstrong: I don't think he doped much more than the others but his attitude, the fact that he deceived thousands of sick people and what he did to Simeoni put him right in spot nr.2
1-Froome: the weakest rider who has ever managed to win a GT. A donkey turned into a horse. Never seen anything like this even during the golden era of EPO

Pantani in the hall of shame? I don't think he doped more than anyone else at that time.

I guess he makes it because of those climbing times, he still has a lot of records.

I always thought he was a perfect storm - huge natural talent combined with the capacity to respond to doping.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

LeMond

When on LeMond? Please provide any credible source, thanks

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

LeMond

Why do people feel the need to do this? While I wouldn't be shocked to learn he used PED's (it's cycling, afterall) I've seen zero actual evidence that he did. This just seems like a baseless charge.

Because they just cant believe that he's clean. They do this(knowing theyre FOS) to try to make him seem like he was doping & just hasnt been caught.

I love asking them to provide any "credible/verifiable proof or evidence from any: Dr/Masseuse/ fellow rider, any prescriptions( what dosages, who administered said drugs, dates, times, locations, etc) that he did so" & it's crickets chirp.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Nibali/ Cadel?

 

[Cookster15]

Nibali/ Cadel?

I think it was obvious Lemond was clean his decline coincided neatly with the adoption of EPO by the Peloton.

Nibali was hard to accept after stage 19 of the 2016 Giro. But some of us want to believe. I think your posts above are close to the truth, ie, a lot of fans of dopers don't wish to accept that their heroes are not as talented as others so better to drag down the outliers via innuendo and faulty logic and reason.

I recall a 1 page essay from The Hitch I received a few years back when I dared to defend Evans on facts, logic and reason (I think you were on that thread). The counter argument is how did he beat dopers. Well he didn't in 2005, 2006 or 2007 did he. But it is laughable to suggest Evans did not have significantly more talent than The Chicken. A guy who was joke in 2005 when he capitulated off the podium in the TT suddenly becomes a genuine GC contender in 2007 and was trading punches with a young Contador. Nearly won the Tour except his team pulled him because he beyond ridiculous.

On the other hand Evans was a twice world cup MTB winner, won the 2002 Commonwealth games TT beating hence three time world TT champ Michael Rogers. Yet in 2007 Evans was smashed in the Pyrenees of that Tour. Destroyed on Plateau de Beille. The same mountains that looked more believable in 2011.

By 2011 something called the passport had helped level the playing field at least until Sky moved the game on by the following year. The other argument against Evans was his links to Ferrari. But Ferrari was a sports doctor not simply a doping doctor. Name one other person in the European professional scene in 2000 with better credentials than Ferrari - doping or no doping?

Ferrari knew stuff and Evans management linked up via Rominger as a way to get him a path into road racing obviously a far more lucrative career than MTB and he was still young enough to make the switch (Evans was 25 in 2002). Especially after what he showed on Mount Wellington in 1999 Tour of Tasmania whilst still a MTBer.

There were also rumours during the 2002 Giro suggesting he was clean - yes despite riding for Mapei. He rode for Telekom too, but his career went nowhere due to a combo of broken collarbones and playing 2nd fiddle to Jan.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Nibali/ Cadel?

Excellent post! I wanted to believe Cadel was "clean" too(as i liked Cadel as a rider), but many here said he wasn't clean. Not sure either way.

 

[Black Betsy]

Re: Re:

LeMond

When on LeMond? Please provide any credible source, thanks

Lovely trip down memory lane (although I still spin my glam/hair metal records). Is there a chance that Pantani was kindergarten stuff compared to nowadays standards?

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

But it is laughable to suggest Evans did not have significantly more talent than The Chicken. A guy who was joke in 2005 when he capitulated off the podium in the TT suddenly becomes a genuine GC contender in 2007 and was trading punches with a young Contador. Nearly won the Tour except his team pulled him because he beyond ridiculous.

You realize that means he was *on* the podium before everything went wrong, mostly mechanically, in the final TT? And still finished ahead of Evans?

 

[Cookster15]

But it is laughable to suggest Evans did not have significantly more talent than The Chicken. A guy who was joke in 2005 when he capitulated off the podium in the TT suddenly becomes a genuine GC contender in 2007 and was trading punches with a young Contador. Nearly won the Tour except his team pulled him because he beyond ridiculous.

You realize that means he was *on* the podium before everything went wrong, mostly mechanically, in the final TT? And still finished ahead of Evans?

You do realise Rasmussen was allowed that time by riders and teams who saw him as no threat right? In reality never more than a KOM specialist who went for broke in 2007 to steal a Tour de France and lost.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

But it is laughable to suggest Evans did not have significantly more talent than The Chicken. A guy who was joke in 2005 when he capitulated off the podium in the TT suddenly becomes a genuine GC contender in 2007 and was trading punches with a young Contador. Nearly won the Tour except his team pulled him because he beyond ridiculous.

You realize that means he was *on* the podium before everything went wrong, mostly mechanically, in the final TT? And still finished ahead of Evans?

You do realise Rasmussen was allowed that time by riders and teams who saw him as no threat right? In reality never more than a KOM specialist who went for broke in 2007 to steal a Tour de France and lost.

In 2005 he was 3 minutes ahead of Evans after he won a stage in a breakaway, and 6 minutes ahead of Evans before the final ITT. Rasmussen climbed with Armstrong, Valverde and Mancebo on Courchevel. He was a top 5 climber in that Tour.

 

[spalco]

Re: Re:

Lovely trip down memory lane (although I still spin my glam/hair metal records). Is there a chance that Pantani was kindergarten stuff compared to nowadays standards?

What do you mean by kindergarten? Pantani's time up Alpe d'Huez is still ridiculous and untouchable today. No doubt he was on the most high octane fuel available and pumped up fully.

What exactly current topn riders are on, I think, is still a bit of a mystery - tramadol, steroids, asthma meds, micro-dosing EPO, mini-transfusions, GHRH/GHRP, HIF-PHIs, AICAR, who the *** knows. The pharmacies aren't getting any smaller, but obviously Pantani was taking everything that was available to him at the time.

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

Lovely trip down memory lane (although I still spin my glam/hair metal records). Is there a chance that Pantani was kindergarten stuff compared to nowadays standards?

What do you mean by kindergarten? Pantani's time up Alpe d'Huez is still ridiculous and untouchable today. No doubt he was on the most high octane fuel available and pumped up fully.

What exactly current topn riders are on, I think, is still a bit of a mystery - tramadol, steroids, asthma meds, micro-dosing EPO, mini-transfusions, GHRH/GHRP, HIF-PHIs, AICAR, who the **** knows. The pharmacies aren't getting any smaller, but obviously Pantani was taking everything that was available to him at the time.

Whatever they are taking today is minor compared to 1995 and that includes everything in your list.

But Pantani's incredible Alpe d'Huez times were a combination of doping and talent. The perfect storm. But I still don't think he was taking anything more than any other rider at that time. Maybe he was a good responder.

 

[Cookster15]

But it is laughable to suggest Evans did not have significantly more talent than The Chicken. A guy who was joke in 2005 when he capitulated off the podium in the TT suddenly becomes a genuine GC contender in 2007 and was trading punches with a young Contador. Nearly won the Tour except his team pulled him because he beyond ridiculous.

You realize that means he was *on* the podium before everything went wrong, mostly mechanically, in the final TT? And still finished ahead of Evans?

You do realise Rasmussen was allowed that time by riders and teams who saw him as no threat right? In reality never more than a KOM specialist who went for broke in 2007 to steal a Tour de France and lost.

In 2005 he was 3 minutes ahead of Evans after he won a stage in a breakaway, and 6 minutes ahead of Evans before the final ITT. Rasmussen climbed with Armstrong, Valverde and Mancebo on Courchevel. He was a top 5 climber in that Tour.

Nobody took him seriously because his TT was pathetic. Until 2007. Of course his climbing went up two levels then too. Evans always had more talent than Chicken and that was known from their MTB years.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Re:

My top 10:

10-Pantani: incredible talent but incredibly juiced
9-Ullrich: just a little bit less of a talent, the same juice as above
8-Contador: a grimpeur who beat Cancellara in a TT. The king of CERA's years
7-Vino: Ivan Drago
6-Basso: Riis' perfect disciple. Even Simoni called him an alien.
5-Rominger: Ferrari's Frankenstein
4-Riis: Mr. 60%
3-Indurain: 188cm, 80kg and still always there in the mountains. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANGbb1Yz8Hw
2-Armstrong: I don't think he doped much more than the others but his attitude, the fact that he deceived thousands of sick people and what he did to Simeoni put him right in spot nr.2
1-Froome: the weakest rider who has ever managed to win a GT. A donkey turned into a horse. Never seen anything like this even during the golden era of EPO

I can't find the article now but someone researched the worst results in the TdF by every rider that went on to win GC in a future race. Of the five worst results, three were Sky (Thomas, Froome [rhymes with "zoom"], Wiggins) and the fourth was Indurain. I don't recall who the fifth was but someone should be along momentarily with that detail.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

Lovely trip down memory lane (although I still spin my glam/hair metal records). Is there a chance that Pantani was kindergarten stuff compared to nowadays standards?

What do you mean by kindergarten? Pantani's time up Alpe d'Huez is still ridiculous and untouchable today. No doubt he was on the most high octane fuel available and pumped up fully.

What exactly current topn riders are on, I think, is still a bit of a mystery - tramadol, steroids, asthma meds, micro-dosing EPO, mini-transfusions, GHRH/GHRP, HIF-PHIs, AICAR, who the **** knows. The pharmacies aren't getting any smaller, but obviously Pantani was taking everything that was available to him at the time.

Whatever they are taking today is minor compared to 1995 and that includes everything in your list.

But Pantani's incredible Alpe d'Huez times were a combination of doping and talent. The perfect storm. But I still don't think he was taking anything more than any other rider at that time. Maybe he was a good responder.

You really believe that? He was doing as much or more than Wonderboy was? Not trying to start anything here, just honestly do not believe any riders in the history of the sport, ran the most sophisticated, most expensive, most blatant doping program in the history of any sport, like Wonderboy and his US Postal team. My opinion, Wonderboy was a fraud from the very beginning.

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

Lovely trip down memory lane (although I still spin my glam/hair metal records). Is there a chance that Pantani was kindergarten stuff compared to nowadays standards?

What do you mean by kindergarten? Pantani's time up Alpe d'Huez is still ridiculous and untouchable today. No doubt he was on the most high octane fuel available and pumped up fully.

What exactly current topn riders are on, I think, is still a bit of a mystery - tramadol, steroids, asthma meds, micro-dosing EPO, mini-transfusions, GHRH/GHRP, HIF-PHIs, AICAR, who the **** knows. The pharmacies aren't getting any smaller, but obviously Pantani was taking everything that was available to him at the time.

Whatever they are taking today is minor compared to 1995 and that includes everything in your list.

But Pantani's incredible Alpe d'Huez times were a combination of doping and talent. The perfect storm. But I still don't think he was taking anything more than any other rider at that time. Maybe he was a good responder.

You really believe that? He was doing as much or more than Wonderboy was? Not trying to start anything here, just honestly do not believe any riders in the history of the sport, ran the most sophisticated, most expensive, most blatant doping program in the history of any sport, like Wonderboy and his US Postal team. My opinion, Wonderboy was a fraud from the very beginning.

Note the bold. No I don't think he was doing any more than Lance. Probably much, much less as Marco wasn't an obsessive psychopath and definitely had more raw climbing talent. But I think raw talent together with full on EPO doping typical of the mid 90s peloton helps explain the fastest three times ever officially recorded on that mountain.

 

[Amazinmets87]

Re: Re:

Lovely trip down memory lane (although I still spin my glam/hair metal records). Is there a chance that Pantani was kindergarten stuff compared to nowadays standards?

What do you mean by kindergarten? Pantani's time up Alpe d'Huez is still ridiculous and untouchable today. No doubt he was on the most high octane fuel available and pumped up fully.

What exactly current topn riders are on, I think, is still a bit of a mystery - tramadol, steroids, asthma meds, micro-dosing EPO, mini-transfusions, GHRH/GHRP, HIF-PHIs, AICAR, who the **** knows. The pharmacies aren't getting any smaller, but obviously Pantani was taking everything that was available to him at the time.

Whatever they are taking today is minor compared to 1995 and that includes everything in your list.

But Pantani's incredible Alpe d'Huez times were a combination of doping and talent. The perfect storm. But I still don't think he was taking anything more than any other rider at that time. Maybe he was a good responder.

You really believe that? He was doing as much or more than Wonderboy was? Not trying to start anything here, just honestly do not believe any riders in the history of the sport, ran the most sophisticated, most expensive, most blatant doping program in the history of any sport, like Wonderboy and his US Postal team. My opinion, Wonderboy was a fraud from the very beginning.

Note the bold. No I don't think he was doing any more than Lance. Probably much, much less as Marco wasn't an obsessive psychopath and definitely had more raw climbing talent. But I think raw talent together with full on EPO doping typical of the mid 90s peloton helps explain the fastest three times ever officially recorded on that mountain.

Climbing talent aside, what's your explanation for Pantani's incredulous ITTs in the '99 Giro?

 

[Cookster15]

Talent and EPO. Just as I wrote.

 

[Amazinmets87]

Re:

Talent and EPO. Just as I wrote.

Pantani had no talent as an ITT on flat/rolling courses. His peak performances at ITT were sheer insanity, far more ludicrous than his climbing.

Nearly dead last in the '98 Tour prologue to a podium place in the final TT. You can't make it up

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

Talent and EPO. Just as I wrote.

Pantani had no talent as an ITT on flat/rolling courses. His peak performances at ITT were sheer insanity, far more ludicrous than his climbing.

Nearly dead last in the '98 Tour prologue to a podium place in the final TT. You can't make it up

Kinda similar to Wonderboys illustrious TDF career/results, eh?

I believe a couple of DNF's, an at best 24th place finish pre doping(???), to "suddenly & amazingly" finishing with 7 straight victories? What's really sad and hilarious is how many people were duped by him into thinking he was "clean" from the very beginning.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Nearly dead last in the '98 Tour prologue to a podium place in the final TT. You can't make it up

1) It was a short, technical ITT.

2) It was five weeks after the end of the Giro and it wasn't clear whether or not he was making a GC challenge or was just going for a few stage wins.

3) He was 181st of 189, surrendered only 40-something seconds to rivals (Ullrich. Zulle, Olano) he would easily take more than than from in the mountains.

Make it up all you want.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Kinda similar to Wonderboys illustrious TDF career/results, eh?

Remember what David Walsh wrote about him that first time they met, before the EPO, his plan to improve his TT performances?