Hampsten vs LeMond - 1991 thru 1994

[gillan1969]

...
check Wiki sniper, there was a bit of a boycott that year
and again check Wiki for 'eastern block' and 'cold war'
sorry couldn't resist

no worries The boycott certainly contributed, but one can only laugh at the corresponding claims that Eddie's program wasn't successful (see the Lemond thread for further discussion of both issues)

The point to bear in mind, imo, is that the 84 Games and the results obtained there merely cement what we already knew, namely that from the late 70s onwards, cycling in the US was placed high on the national sports agenda.
It wasn't a fluke.

sniper

no it wasn't

7-eleven was a pretty threadbare approach and that was basically it...that and the mengoni boy

off the back of lemond it picked up a bit through the Coors and there was a scene in the 90 and elliot/Smith and few other Brits (irish boy mccormack) made a few quid racing out there

i say that as a brit...but certainly in terms of how the US was viewed internationally..see also presence at worlds and the infamous goodwood scenario...hardly a 'priority'

 

[sniper]

Some dots to ponder on, and maybe even join.

Meet Mike Fraysse:

Fraysse has had a hand in the development of many elite American cyclists, including: Greg LeMond, Ron Kiefel, Alexi Grewal, Andy Hampsten, Davis Phinney, Betsy Davis, Mike Friedman, Christian Stahl,[3] Connie Carpenter, Rebecca Twigg, Beth Heiden, Eric Heiden, Lance Armstrong, and Steve Woznik. Fraysse was also involved in product development for the bicycle industry, and in 1979 he built the first aerodynamic frame with tear-drop tubing, which was ridden by LeMond to a silver medal in that year's junior world championship. He also designed the Concor bicycle saddle.

Now meet Eddie B.:

He went to the Olympic Games in Montreal in 1976 as assistant for the Polish team. He went from there to New Jersey, USA, to see friends with whom he had raced for Poland.[3] There he became associated with the North Jersey Bicycle Club, whose jersey he was wearing when he met Mike Fraysse, chairman of the American cycling federation's competition committee, in a cycle shop. The federation had gained money for coaching and support of athletes from President Jimmy Carter's inquiry into the domination in sport by what were perceived to be state-sponsored amateurs from communist countries. Fraysee spoke to Borysewicz about bringing his experience of Polish sports schools. They spoke in French because Borysewicz spoke no English.[3] Next year the US federation took on Borysewicz as its first full-time coach. His riders referred to him as "Eddie B" because they could not master his surname, pronounced Borisevich.[4]

And this, this just m..m..m..moves me:

Fraysse was team manager of the US squad at the Pan American Games in 1975, and he coached the US team at 14 world championships. In recognition of his service to international cycling, and his work with Borysewicz, Fraysse was also presented with life membership and the Medal of Distinction by the Polish cycling federation.

Further wrt Eddie: he's known to have taken US juniors to Poland to teach them how to transfuse blood.
As it happens, Lemond travelled to Poland in 1978.
I've asked multiple times what people think he was doing there besides sightseeing, but have yet to receive an answer.

 

[djpbaltimore]

sniper

no it wasn't

7-eleven was a pretty threadbare approach and that was basically it...that and the mengoni boy

off the back of lemond it picked up a bit through the Coors and there was a scene in the 90 and elliot/Smith and few other Brits (irish boy mccormack) made a few quid racing out there

i say that as a brit...but certainly in terms of how the US was viewed internationally..see also presence at worlds and the infamous goodwood scenario...hardly a 'priority'

Agreed. Cycling has never been a priority sport here in the USA. Calling it otherwise is revisionist history.

 

[sniper]

guys, who said it was a priority?
i thought we agreed no more deflections and strawmen.

 

[djpbaltimore]

...
check Wiki sniper, there was a bit of a boycott that year
and again check Wiki for 'eastern block' and 'cold war'
sorry couldn't resist

no worries The boycott certainly contributed, but one can only laugh at the suggestions that Eddie's program was a failure (see the Lemond thread for further discussion on both issues).

And so the point to bear in mind, imo, is that the 84 Games and the results obtained there merely cement what we already knew, namely that from the late 70s onwards, cycling in the US was placed high on the national sports agenda.
It wasn't a fluke.

So being placed high on a sports agenda is not a priority? Yes or no answer only, please...

 

[blutto]

...
check Wiki sniper, there was a bit of a boycott that year
and again check Wiki for 'eastern block' and 'cold war'
sorry couldn't resist

no worries The boycott certainly contributed, but one can only laugh at the suggestions that Eddie's program was a failure (see the Lemond thread for further discussion on both issues).

And so the point to bear in mind, imo, is that the 84 Games and the results obtained there merely cement what we already knew, namely that from the late 70s onwards, cycling in the US was placed high on the national sports agenda.
It wasn't a fluke.

....not quite right....was certainly placed high by a certain segment of society....cycling in North America was very much an upper crustish endeavour ( whereas in Europe traditionally more working class ) so it had this weird cache not unlike golf ( which has an influence way outside of its demographic size because of the more affluent culture segment that pursues it )...

...now that is not to say that there were not an insignificant number of people who were pushing to make cycling the next big thing...CBS invested much airtime and resources to push the sport...and various team, race organizers and other vested interests saw the benefits of taking cycling in the US to another level...so you see people like Weisel and Trump involved ( either because it was cool or because it could be a cash cow )...and you see the UCI looking at this market and dreaming of bags of gold ( the group that ran the Tour had the go ahead from the UCI to do a proper US Tour so they had a big vested interest to make US cycling go big...many people saw the creative interpretation of the then current aero/three point rules that helped gift LeMond the 89 Tour as a function of that yearning for those bags of gold which needed US cycling to go big... )...

....and "the ticket" to advancing cycling for all of these interests became Greg LeMond...CBS sold him like the latest bubble gum flavour ( there were numerous fawning "up close and personal" segments featuring our new hero fighting the evil European hordes....btw up close and personal had a different meaning in those days...it was used initially by tv to sell audiences on breaking sports stars...was usually associated with the way ABC sold their stable of what we called "garbage sports"...ABC sports were often called the home of garbage sport by followers of the more traditional sports like football, baseball, and basketball...btw in those days soccer was considered a garbage sport.... ) ....and then the accident !....and you really have to know there were a lot of people behind a LeMond comeback to reap the benefits of a lot of investment to push cycling to up high on the national agenda...and some people said he got a lot of help....

Cheers

 

[sniper]

...
....not quite right....was certainly placed high by a certain segment of society....cycling in North America was very much an upper crustish endeavour ( whereas in Europe traditionally more working class ) so it had this weird cache not unlike golf ( which has an influence way outside of its demographic size because of the more affluent culture segment that pursues it )...

...now that is not to say that there were not an insignificant number ofpeople who were pushing to make cycling the next big thing...CBS invested much airtime and resources to push the sport...and various team, race organizers and other vested interests saw the benefits of taking cycling in the US to another level...so you see people like Weisel and Trump involved ( either because it was cool or because it could be a cash cow )...and you see the UCI looking at this market and dreaming of bags of gold ( the group that ran the Tour had the go ahead from the UCI to do a proper US Tour so they had a big vested interest to make US cycling go big )...

....and "the ticket" to advancing cycling for all of these interests became Greg LeMond...CBS sold him like the latest bubble gum flavour....and then the accident !....and you really have to know there were a lot of people behind a LeMond comeback to reap the benefits of a lot of investment to push cycling to up high on the national agenda...and some people said he got a lot of help....

Cheers

thanks, that's most insightful.
Acknowledged, saying it was placed high on the agenda was a simplification on my behalf.

Anyway, I wanted to highlight this passage:

The federation had gained money for coaching and support of athletes from President Jimmy Carter's inquiry into the domination in sport by what were perceived to be state-sponsored amateurs from communist countries. Fraysee spoke to Borysewicz about bringing his experience of Polish sports schools. ... Next year the US federation took on Borysewicz as its first full-time coach.

Not sure how accurate that is.
In any case, as I understood Mike Neel was removed to make place for Eddie, which, if true, is quite interesting. You normally don't throw out home-bred staff to make place for Polish immigrants, unless you have a good reason to do so.

 

[pmcg76]

I can't be bothered to read all the 5 pages of this thread but has it been said that LeMond had mitochondrial myopathy which is the ONLY explanation for his decline in his last few years (plus the age factor of course)?

myopathy has been discussed in the main Lemond thread.
it's surely one possible explanation, but why would it be the only explanation?
Interestingly, as was pointed out in the Lemond thread, the myopathy account and Testa's account are not mutually exclusive.

A lot of reputedly clean or non-EPO riders performed better than him in those years when they did not before the shooting accident (Mottet to start with).

It's a clever point. However, like with Lemond/Hampsten, we don't know if these riders were clean, so using them as an argument either way is always going to be circular. Point in case is the guy you mention: Mottet. His wikipedia suffices to find out he wasn't as clean as some posters in the Clinic say he was. More like 'Hesjedal'-clean (doped only once, and it made him go backwards )

That said, a reverse variant of your argument has been put forward, e.g. here:

...
4. we've seen several '80s' riders (not just Lemond) go downhill post-1990, riders of whom we know they doped in the 80s and of whom we know, or can be fairly sure, they got onto the EPO program at some point (the PDM-rs; guys like Planckaert, Demol, Draaijer, etc.);
...

Besides, LeMond started to strictly focus on Grand Tours after the shooting accident ...

The incident damaged his lungs and kidney(s), pretty vital body parts when it comes to the transport of oxygen.
Why would he nonetheless have decided to focus only on GTs?

Planckaert and Demol were already addressed in this thread but you chose to ignore it not once but twice, but now here you are bringing out those riders as some sort of evidence. For the record Planckaert had a back problem during 1991 and pretty much never raced after, whilst other than a fluke Paris-Roubaix win, Demol had no major results so not sure how he went downhill. As for Draaijer, how did he go downhill in the 90s when he died in early 1990. The absolute stupidity of your posts is horrifying.

 

[sniper]

and mottet really was clean

 

[GJB123]

Re:

and mottet really was clean

Why don't you address the points he is making instead of making it personal?

 

[sniper]

Re:

...
Hampsten riding so darn well in Switzerland (2x winner of tour de suisse, one time winner of Romandy)...

In Swart's affidavit (which, admittedly, contains a few dodgy passages where I'm not sure if he's talking 100% truth), he mentions he got his dope in a pharmacy in Switzerland. It would seem (or at least it can be plausibly interpreted from the context) that he visited this Swiss pharmacy on the recommendation of Max Testa. This is the passage:

A. I went about it through procuring it through a pharmacy in Switzerland, and then on the advice of
Max, the doctor, on how to administer it, started the course.
http://wheelmenthebook.com/docs/swart%20depo.pdf

Moreover, the motorola team-based EPO doping program Swart talks about was discussed in Como, Testa's home place in Italy, situated on the border of Switzerland. And Swart's first motorola team-doping experiences relate to the Tour of Switzerland (with Max Testa bringing along his blood centrifuge).
As it happens, Hampsten's second home was in Switzerland.

to elaborate on this,
in the winter of 1992, the year he won Romandy and came 4th in the TDF (winning Alpe Dhuez), he had an exclusive training period with Max Testa:

Hampsten's training in Boulder was good, but when Massimino Testa, Motorola's team doctor, suggested training with him last winter, Hampsten agreed.

http://articles.latimes.com/1992-07-08/sports/sp-1482_1_time-trial-racing

Turns out Testa was some kind of Steve Peters avant la lettre:

What Testa was gently suggesting was that Hampsten's problems were mental adjustment, not physical capabilities. "I knew it all along," Hampsten said.

As I mentioned, Hampsten's second home was in Switzerland. But not just anywhere in Switzerland. No.
It was just across the border from Como, Testa's homeplace.

Hampsten lives in Vacallo, Switzerland, just across the border from Lake Cuomo in Italy

Now, remember Como was where according to Swart the Motorola team gathered in 1994(5?) to discuss the team-wide use of epo, and Swart subsequently went across the border to a Swiss pharmacy to buy it.
A pharmacy in Vacallo maybe? Who knows.

Anyway, Testa was also a kind of Tim Kerrison avant la lettre, knowing that ideal training is done off the bike, in the pool or on a lake

Testa put [Hampsten] on a rowing and weightlifting regimen. The rowing motion simulates the explosion needed for time trials, stages in which riders are staggered individually at the start, and pedal against the clock.

As for the weightlifting, Hampsten sure was remarkably bulky that year.
Still climbed pretty well didn't he.

 

[sniper]

During Andy’s 22-year racing career he worked closely with coaches Eddy B, Paul Koechli, Eddy Merckx, and Dr. Max Testa, who all helped refine his riding technique and position.
http://www.hampsten.com/company/designmaterials/

I thought Hampsten was more a Mike Neel guy (well, he was). And Neel and Eddy B. didn't go through the same door together (afaik). Surprised to see him list Eddie B here and not Mike Neel.

 

[sniper]

Re:

another fun fact on the Giro 1988, widely agreed to have been one of the toughest ever.

The numbers three (Urs Zimmermann) and four (Giupponi) of the final GC were late at the anti-dope test after the 19th stage. They were neither banned nor time-penalized, but merely fined. None of the teams protested.
Asked for a reaction, Peter Post (Panasonic team manager) says "those antidoping tests, let's just stop with those, nobody's playing fair anyway".
The article furthermore mentions Giro race director Bianchi as the go-to guy for making things go away. "Just call Bianchi, and he'll wash you clean".
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?identifier=ddd%3A010566674%3Ampeg21%3Aa0512&coll=ddd

 

[gillan1969]

sniper...a PI without a client

 

[sniper]

And nothing from Lance thus far. Thought he'd reach out to me by now.

anyway, sans ridicule, what's your view on Eddie B., Neel and Hampsten?
Any idea when Eddie trained Hampsten?

 

[gillan1969]

And nothing from Lance thus far. Thought he'd reach out to me by now.

anyway, sans ridicule, what's your view on Eddie B., Neel and Hampsten?
Any idea when Eddie trained Hampsten?

I had the Eddie B training 'bible' sniper..

My family were best friends with the guy that ran the pharmacy

One of my friends studied medicine

you join the dots..........

 

[gillan1969]

And nothing from Lance thus far. Thought he'd reach out to me by now.

anyway, sans ridicule, what's your view on Eddie B., Neel and Hampsten?
Any idea when Eddie trained Hampsten?

no idea spire...

however Eddie B was first a foremost a cycling coach...he was good and there weren't ten a penny like now

plus nobody had a 'clean' agenda like today

it wasn't until ferrari made his OJ comments that a tide of sorts started turning

trying to make connection pre-epo is a wild goose chase however well intentioned...you will find links everywhere...

 

[gillan1969]

And nothing from Lance thus far. Thought he'd reach out to me by now.

anyway, sans ridicule, what's your view on Eddie B., Neel and Hampsten?
Any idea when Eddie trained Hampsten?

PS I did actually have the Eddie B book

never stuck to it though...otherwise you might be speculating about me

 

[sniper]

And nothing from Lance thus far. Thought he'd reach out to me by now.

anyway, sans ridicule, what's your view on Eddie B., Neel and Hampsten?
Any idea when Eddie trained Hampsten?

however Eddie B was first a foremost a cycling coach...he was good and there weren't ten a penny like now

he studied sports physiology in Warsaw and oversaw world-class Polish riders' programs involving hormones and amphetamines before Fraysse picked him up at the expense of Neel.

plus nobody had a 'clean' agenda like today

no kidding.

trying to make connection pre-epo is a wild goose chase however well intentioned...

Hampsten/Testa/Motorola/Och/Weisel/EddieB...wild goose chase? Mkay.

you will find links everywhere...

But not random links. All nicely connected. I don't have to join anything.

 

[Benotti69]

I can't be bothered to read all the 5 pages of this thread but has it been said that LeMond had mitochondrial myopathy which is the ONLY explanation for his decline in his last few years (plus the age factor of course)?

myopathy has been discussed in the main Lemond thread.
it's surely one possible explanation, but why would it be the only explanation?
Interestingly, as was pointed out in the Lemond thread, the myopathy account and Testa's account are not mutually exclusive.

A lot of reputedly clean or non-EPO riders performed better than him in those years when they did not before the shooting accident (Mottet to start with).

It's a clever point. However, like with Lemond/Hampsten, we don't know if these riders were clean, so using them as an argument either way is always going to be circular. Point in case is the guy you mention: Mottet. His wikipedia suffices to find out he wasn't as clean as some posters in the Clinic say he was. More like 'Hesjedal'-clean (doped only once, and it made him go backwards )

That said, a reverse variant of your argument has been put forward, e.g. here:

...
4. we've seen several '80s' riders (not just Lemond) go downhill post-1990, riders of whom we know they doped in the 80s and of whom we know, or can be fairly sure, they got onto the EPO program at some point (the PDM-rs; guys like Planckaert, Demol, Draaijer, etc.);
...

Besides, LeMond started to strictly focus on Grand Tours after the shooting accident ...

The incident damaged his lungs and kidney(s), pretty vital body parts when it comes to the transport of oxygen.
Why would he nonetheless have decided to focus only on GTs?

Planckaert and Demol were already addressed in this thread but you chose to ignore it not once but twice, but now here you are bringing out those riders as some sort of evidence. For the record Planckaert had a back problem during 1991 and pretty much never raced after, whilst other than a fluke Paris-Roubaix win, Demol had no major results so not sure how he went downhill. As for Draaijer, how did he go downhill in the 90s when he died in early 1990. The absolute stupidity of your posts is horrifying.

Nobody flukes a win at Paris Roubaix, at least not with a back problem over cobbles.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

another fun fact on the Giro 1988, widely agreed to have been one of the toughest ever.

The numbers three (Urs Zimmermann) and four (Giupponi) of the final GC were late at the anti-dope test after the 19th stage. They were neither banned nor time-penalized, but merely fined. None of the teams protested.
Asked for a reaction, Peter Post (Panasonic team manager) says "those antidoping tests, let's just stop with those, nobody's playing fair anyway".
The article furthermore mentions Giro race director Bianchi as the go-to guy for making things go away. "Just call Bianchi, and he'll wash you clean".
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?identifier=ddd%3A010566674%3Ampeg21%3Aa0512&coll=ddd

They were time penalised as was another rider I think but those penalties were overturned on appeal.

 

[pmcg76]

I can't be bothered to read all the 5 pages of this thread but has it been said that LeMond had mitochondrial myopathy which is the ONLY explanation for his decline in his last few years (plus the age factor of course)?

myopathy has been discussed in the main Lemond thread.
it's surely one possible explanation, but why would it be the only explanation?
Interestingly, as was pointed out in the Lemond thread, the myopathy account and Testa's account are not mutually exclusive.

A lot of reputedly clean or non-EPO riders performed better than him in those years when they did not before the shooting accident (Mottet to start with).

It's a clever point. However, like with Lemond/Hampsten, we don't know if these riders were clean, so using them as an argument either way is always going to be circular. Point in case is the guy you mention: Mottet. His wikipedia suffices to find out he wasn't as clean as some posters in the Clinic say he was. More like 'Hesjedal'-clean (doped only once, and it made him go backwards )

That said, a reverse variant of your argument has been put forward, e.g. here:

...
4. we've seen several '80s' riders (not just Lemond) go downhill post-1990, riders of whom we know they doped in the 80s and of whom we know, or can be fairly sure, they got onto the EPO program at some point (the PDM-rs; guys like Planckaert, Demol, Draaijer, etc.);
...

Besides, LeMond started to strictly focus on Grand Tours after the shooting accident ...

The incident damaged his lungs and kidney(s), pretty vital body parts when it comes to the transport of oxygen.
Why would he nonetheless have decided to focus only on GTs?

Planckaert and Demol were already addressed in this thread but you chose to ignore it not once but twice, but now here you are bringing out those riders as some sort of evidence. For the record Planckaert had a back problem during 1991 and pretty much never raced after, whilst other than a fluke Paris-Roubaix win, Demol had no major results so not sure how he went downhill. As for Draaijer, how did he go downhill in the 90s when he died in early 1990. The absolute stupidity of your posts is horrifying.

Nobody flukes a win at Paris Roubaix, at least not with a back problem over cobbles.

Firstly you are conflating these two cyclists and you don't know your history. It was Planckeart who had the back problem from 91 on, he retired end of 92 having hardly competed all year I think. He won his Paris-Roubaix in 1990.

Demol was in the break of the day in 88 from early in the race(riding for Planckaert) and this was a break that stayed away. The final five from the break all finished in the first seven, only Fignon and Marc Sergeant caught any of the remaining break members. Demol, Wegmuller, Stpehan Joho, Corne Van Rijnen, Gerald Veldscholten all were in the break. Other than Wegmuller, none of the riders involved had results in Paris-Roubaix before or after 88. Plus Wegmuller got a plastic bag stuck in his derailleur near the finish meaning he couldn't change gear. Behind the favourites played cat and mouse until Fignon attacked with Sergeant. It was too late.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

And nothing from Lance thus far. Thought he'd reach out to me by now.

anyway, sans ridicule, what's your view on Eddie B., Neel and Hampsten?
Any idea when Eddie trained Hampsten?

I gave you a play by play on another thread of what you need to do with respect to Lance. Just go up to Aspin CO.

 

[Benotti69]

I can't be bothered to read all the 5 pages of this thread but has it been said that LeMond had mitochondrial myopathy which is the ONLY explanation for his decline in his last few years (plus the age factor of course)?

myopathy has been discussed in the main Lemond thread.
it's surely one possible explanation, but why would it be the only explanation?
Interestingly, as was pointed out in the Lemond thread, the myopathy account and Testa's account are not mutually exclusive.

A lot of reputedly clean or non-EPO riders performed better than him in those years when they did not before the shooting accident (Mottet to start with).

It's a clever point. However, like with Lemond/Hampsten, we don't know if these riders were clean, so using them as an argument either way is always going to be circular. Point in case is the guy you mention: Mottet. His wikipedia suffices to find out he wasn't as clean as some posters in the Clinic say he was. More like 'Hesjedal'-clean (doped only once, and it made him go backwards )

That said, a reverse variant of your argument has been put forward, e.g. here:

...
4. we've seen several '80s' riders (not just Lemond) go downhill post-1990, riders of whom we know they doped in the 80s and of whom we know, or can be fairly sure, they got onto the EPO program at some point (the PDM-rs; guys like Planckaert, Demol, Draaijer, etc.);
...

Besides, LeMond started to strictly focus on Grand Tours after the shooting accident ...

The incident damaged his lungs and kidney(s), pretty vital body parts when it comes to the transport of oxygen.
Why would he nonetheless have decided to focus only on GTs?

Planckaert and Demol were already addressed in this thread but you chose to ignore it not once but twice, but now here you are bringing out those riders as some sort of evidence. For the record Planckaert had a back problem during 1991 and pretty much never raced after, whilst other than a fluke Paris-Roubaix win, Demol had no major results so not sure how he went downhill. As for Draaijer, how did he go downhill in the 90s when he died in early 1990. The absolute stupidity of your posts is horrifying.

Nobody flukes a win at Paris Roubaix, at least not with a back problem over cobbles.

Firstly you are conflating these two cyclists and you don't know your history. It was Planckeart who had the back problem from 91 on, he retired end of 92 having hardly competed all year I think. He won his Paris-Roubaix in 1990.

Demol was in the break of the day in 88 from early in the race(riding for Planckaert) and this was a break that stayed away. The final five from the break all finished in the first seven, only Fignon and Marc Sergeant caught any of the remaining break members. Demol, Wegmuller, Stpehan Joho, Corne Van Rijnen, Gerald Veldscholten all were in the break. Other than Wegmuller, none of the riders involved had results in Paris-Roubaix before or after 88. Plus Wegmuller got a plastic bag stuck in his derailleur near the finish meaning he couldn't change gear. Behind the favourites played cat and mouse until Fignon attacked with Sergeant. It was too late.

http://www.dopeology.org/people/Eddy_Planckaert/

 

[sniper]

...
And then, the theory about blood doper Hampsten, come on. I dont know if you were around at the time but if Hampsten was blood doping it sure as hell didnt do him any favours...

Are we talking about the same Hampsten? (and no, I wasn't around, but google suffices to see he didn't do bad in GTs)

For the sake of the discussion: you think (a) Hampsten was clean, or you think (b) he was doping but without blood transfusions?

If (a), what makes you think that?
If (b), what makes you think he wasn't transfusing in, say, 1988?