Has anyone changed their mind about doping?

[Walkman]

Your boy Evans doesn't mind. He praises and defends the dopers all the time

It's not like I agree with everything he does.

I became a fan of his when I started following the sport many years ago and then I really thought he was clean. But over time I have started to doubt that and thus I am not as much of a die hard fan anymore.

Still, there aren't any clear cut evidence against him and not much more of anything really. Sure he has some questionable performances but very few if you ask me and to be frank, the connection to Ferrari isn't really bother me. If there were more to that story, I feel like we would have uncovered that by now. But hey, if Evans would get caught I would have no problem to throw him under the bus.

 

[the sceptic]

You don't think clean riders have a family?

Löfkvist did almost overtrain his entire Career to try and keep up with doped riders and now he can't compete in the sport he grew up loving because of chronic fatigue. So, no I have no sympathy for dopers.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lofkvist-announces-retirement-from-professional-cycling

let me guess, he is clean because he is swedish?

 

[Walkman]

If compete you mean riding against international teams? no. national/local circuits I've competed in a few times though. Personally never dope, cause I've got no intetion of becoming "good".

Then how can you not hate cheaters? Even if you don't have the intention of becoming "good", don't you get ****ed when people get the best of you because of PDE's?

And even if you don' have any ambitions, what about the riders who do and race clean? You seriously think they are idiots for trying to make it clean?

 

[Walkman]

let me guess, he is clean because he is swedish?

Uhm, he is probably clean because all evidence points to it. No positive tests, no rumors, no dodgy performances or teams.

Clearly talented as a young kid, yet struggles to live up to all the promise while turning pro. Was a solid time trialist and then when he focused more on his climbing, his time trail ability declined which is what you could expect.

And yes, being swedish is kind of a good sign. Just look at the swedish XC-skiers. Dominated pre EPO (blood testing ruled out any blood transfusions*) and then during the 90's they got their asses kicked and now they have made it back once the doping is once again reduced. There is a different mentality in Sweden compared to Spain and Italy for instance.

*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280

Also, Sweden dominated the 1989 World Championships, claiming 6/12 individual medals and won the relay.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Then how can you not hate cheaters? Even if you don't have the intention of becoming "good", don't you get ****ed when people get the best of you because of PDE's?

And even if you don' have any ambitions, what about the riders who do and race clean? You seriously think they are idiots for trying to make it clean?

No I don't think they are idiots, I just think they are not especially realistic. Look, I am from a very "active" family. My brother, cousins etc. are all athletes of some kind. Most of them aren't gonna make it, but some of them got real talent and it is not as if I feel that I have the right to judge them if they have to do what they know the other people are doing to reach their goals in life. I'm not gonna judge my brother when he is older and he finds out that he can't beat Sven Kramer solely on bread and water...
Is this ideal? ofc not, but very few thing here in life is.

 

[Alpe73]

Also, this statement shows that you are exactly what's wrong with cycling and sports in general.

Ah ..... the Morality Card .... the avoidance behavior of choice. Feels so good ...
for a while. No worries ... just play it again .... and so on ... and so on.

 

[yespatterns]

I don't think it's athletics in particular that are susceptible to corner cutting and outright dishonesty. But this time of year (pro team contract time) always gets me thinking about how much is at stake for these guys, especially those on the edge of not getting re-signed.

 

[The Hitch]

It's not like I agree with everything he does.

I became a fan of his when I started following the sport many years ago and then I really thought he was clean. But over time I have started to doubt that and thus I am not as much of a die hard fan anymore.

Still, there aren't any clear cut evidence against him and not much more of anything really. Sure he has some questionable performances but very few if you ask me and to be frank, the connection to Ferrari isn't really bother me. If there were more to that story, I feel like we would have uncovered that by now. But hey, if Evans would get caught I would have no problem to throw him under the bus.

Well if you choose to believe he was clean (ie suspend all basic human logic) then he totally ****s up your theory of clean riders being made to suffer. Here's a guy who's essentially been robbed of 15 gts or some such and essentially going down as the greatest athlete in world history, and not only is he totally unbothered, he actually sympathises with those that robbed him.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Choose one. Either you can complain about clean riders being robbed, or, don't act like Evans was clean.

 

[The Hitch]

Uhm, he is probably clean because all evidence points to it. No positive tests, no rumors, no dodgy performances or teams. .

May want to reconsider that last one.

 

[Walkman]

Well if you choose to believe he was clean (ie suspend all basic human logic) then he totally ****s up your theory of clean riders being made to suffer. Here's a guy who's essentially been robbed of 15 gts or some such and essentially going down as the greatest athlete in world history, and not only is he totally unbothered, he actually sympathises with those that robbed him.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Choose one. Either you can complain about clean riders being robbed, or, don't act like Evans was clean.

I wrote:

I became a fan of his when I started following the sport.

I even believed Lance was clean at that point and don't act like you have to be *** be believe that when you have no prior information about cycling history or cyclists in general. You are just being a d*ck trying to make me out to be the fool.

 

[The Hitch]

And yes, being swedish is kind of a good sign. Just look at the swedish XC-skiers. Dominated pre EPO (blood testing ruled out any blood transfusions*) and then during the 90's they got their asses kicked and now they have made it back once the doping is once again reduced. There is a different mentality in Sweden compared to Spain and Italy for instance.

Oh good god, the worst type of racism, the elitist kind. Give me someone who's merely been brought up to hate the other, any day over someone who believes his people are born with some moral superiority which leads to a desire to civilize perceived inferiors.

Nationality has 0 influence on whether someone dopes. I'm sorry but Swedish people can lie cheat and do way worse things as well.

You clearly don't have a clue about what doping is and what motivates people to do it. Messed up post from top to bottom.

 

[No_Balls]

I even believed Lance was clean at that point and don't act like you have to be *** be believe that when you have no prior information about cycling history or cyclists in general. You are just being a d*ck trying to make me out to be the fool.

Of course you did. Because he has blue eyes and speaks english properly has always the benefit of the doubt in your worldview. Its cool with everyone on the juice assuming their name doest sound foreign.

We know what type your are Walkman.

Nicklas Axelsson and Fredrik Kessiakoff says hello.

 

[Walkman]

Oh good god, the worst type of racism, the elitist kind. Give me someone who's merely been brought up to hate the other, any day over someone who believes his people are born with some moral superiority which leads to a desire to civilize perceived inferiors.

Nationality has 0 influence on whether someone dopes. I'm sorry but Swedish people can lie cheat and do way worse things as well.

You clearly don't have a clue about what doping is and what motivates people to do it. Messed up post from top to bottom.

You don't know anything about XC-skiing, do you?

I posted facts. Pre EPO era the swedes dominated and test shows no blood transfusions were made. During the EPO era swedes were nowhere to be seen and world class skiers such as Mogren was marginalized much like Lemond was. After the EPO-test was introduced, the swedes start to become more successful again, do you think that's just a coincidence?

Nationality has 0 influence on whether someone dopes.

Uhm, yeah it does. If you are brought up in a society that does not accept doping and strongly condemn it you will be less likely to dope. By contrast if you are brought up in a country and in a culture when athletes are praised no matter what they do, you are probably more likely to dope. It's called socialization.

 

[King Boonen]

Nope, not changed my views. I've never believed in lifetime bans for first offences. I can also understand the complexities of the things that make people dope, in many occasions it is not just a simple choice. Of course, you never know which occasions it is or it isn't...

 

[Netserk]

I even believed Lance was clean at that point and don't act like you have to be *** be believe that when you have no prior information about cycling history or cyclists in general. You are just being a d*ck trying to make me out to be the fool.

That *is* stupid. Why on earth would you believe Lance was clean? I can understand why a kid who sees the sport for the first time doesn't consider him a doper, but to actually believe that he was clean you'd have to recognize the possibility of doping and then discard that.

There are a lot of riders out there that I don't consider dopers, but that doesn't mean I believe they are clean. That would imo be foolish.

 

[Walkman]

Of course you did. Because he has blue eyes and speaks english properly has always the benefit of the doubt in your worldview. Its cool with everyone on the juice assuming their name doest sound foreign.

We know what type your are Walkman.

Nicklas Axelsson and Fredrik Kessiakoff says hello.

What? It has nothing to do with him speaking english. Oscar Freire was my favorite rider back when I first started watching cycling.

Nicklas Axelsson doped, so what? I never said swedes can't dope, but merely they are probably more likely not to. And what has Kessiakoff to do with this?

He has had some great results but only managed to do so under a short period and still, his results was not exceptional but any means. He also suffers from over training and will probably not get a new contract. Not really sure what you are trying to say?

 

[the sceptic]

Kessiakoff cleans.. lol

time to abandon the thread

 

[Walkman]

That *is* stupid. Why on earth would you believe Lance was clean? I can understand why a kid who sees the sport for the first time doesn't consider him a doper, but to actually believe that he was clean you'd have to recognize the possibility of doping and then discard that.

Maybe I was a kid when I started watching cycling? Did that ever occur to you? And your arguments that everyone should understand that cycling is full of dope is ***.

 

[Tonton]

Changed my mind? Yes and no: no because I've always considered doping as cheating and been against PED use. Yes, because I went from thinking that one could make it clean to realizing that in order to get to the top or stay there, some will do anything: it is what it is. So I quit competitive cycling; I wasn't bitter: I wasn't good enough to dream big anyways. At the time, I could understand taking products for injury, sickness recovery, not realizing that recovery is a part of performance. I had no clue about how doping works, really. Training in small clubs was old school, long rides and intervals. Big pasta three hours before a race . Then after the Festina affair and the first revelations in l'Equipe about LA, I grew angry and favored lifetime bans, shame to the cheaters. It felt like doping and cycling were like peas and carrots. Now I believe that if you want the sport to get clean (or at least cleaner), you have to encourage guys to speak up, cooperate, and break the omerta. And get known cheaters out of the sport's organization at large (DS, TV commentators...). I have a talented kid to whom I wish a fair shot. Do I want Vino or Riis to mentor him? Hell no!

 

[Netserk]

Maybe I was a kid when I started watching cycling? Did that ever occur to you? And your arguments that everyone should understand that cycling is full of dope is ***.

Yeah and? Did you read my post?

Where did I write that "everyone should understand that cycling is full of dope"?

 

[ggusta]

i was going to participate but this thread is rapidly disintegrating, too bad, it started out promising

 

[Tonton]

Nationality has 0 influence on whether someone dopes.

You are wrong, The Hitch. EVERYONE knows that the French don't dope .

 

[King Boonen]

Can a mod send the silly nationalist discussions to the sidebar thread?

 

[Walkman]

Yeah and? Did you read my post?

I did. You wrote.

That *is* stupid. Why on earth would you believe Lance was clean?

Because I was a kid. And you have already called me stupid at this point, making your later sentence about how it's ok if you are a kid irrelevant.

Where did I write that "everyone should understand that cycling is full of dope"?

That's how I interpreted this statement:

..but to actually believe that he was clean you'd have to recognize the possibility of doping and then discard that.

 

[Walkman]

Can a mod send the silly nationalist discussions to the sidebar thread?

There is no discussion. Two poster are trying to make me out to be a racist/nationalist which is not the case.