Has anyone changed their mind about doping?

[BigMac]

I am not going to forget hatred. It's a word that gets bandied around here and is what I was responding to. Let him speak for himself.



I dislike cheating. The act of cheating. Perhaps it's just semantics, but I am not going to dislike a cheater because someone tells me I have to. I think Cadel cheated. I like Cadel. He is far more than his cheating, so much more. As is every other person. SO no, I do not hate or even dislike cheaters. I dislike unlikeable people.

If that's not how you operate, then fine. I can accept that. But I have forgiven people who have wronged me and mine, most grievously, and can tell you there is more power in forgiveness than hatred.



No. All you can say is your reading comprehension is off-kilter.

Disliking cheating, yes sure, that can be an objective notion.
Disliking a person because they cheat? F*ck no. That's immaturity or myopic.

I embrace my flaws, and accept them. I can therefore accept others in their flaws.

The world needs more acceptance and understanding and less hate, judgement and "objective dislike of people". It's what leads to conflict and war.

Indeed you are correct, I misread Walkman's original post and proceeded to use the same terms, somewhat unconsciously. Dislike cheating, yes, not necessarily the cheater. I agree with you, otherwise would be incoherence from me. I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

[DirtyWorks]

..... But I believe it's different now and that doping is pretty much eradicated from the sport. ...

How do you know this?
-The positive rates for riders during Wonderboy's reign was the same as it is today.
-It's largely the same cycling federation with almost no interest in protecting the integrity of the sport. Witness the UCI's commission on Wonderboy thinks his ban should be reduced.
-Senior management on the team-side haven't changed in decades except for maybe JV and saint David Brailsford.

It's not about some emotional/metaphysical thing either. The sport's administrators operate on a range between protecting the integrity of the game or not. Nothing suggest they are moving closer to protecting the integrity of the sport with anti-doping. Nothing.

 

[Tonton]

So what are they saying? And what are you trying to say?

Read the study and you'll see that your comment

Still wouldn't explain why they (Swedes) aren't getting caught in competitions such as the World Championships, the Olympics, the world cup and in the Diamond League while others still are.

It's probably the other way around. They aren't caught during competitions because they don't cheat.

is BS. Some Swedes dope, like everyone else. Cultural differences my ar$e. I'm done with you.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Tests showed no blood transfusions were made.

Can you please explain the mechanics of this test and how it proves what you are claiming?

Did you read the abstract in the link I posted earlier?

Nope.

Hemoglobin data have been available from ski teams beginning from 1987, and from 1989 to 1999 we have followed hemoglobin values in elite cross-country skiers in international competitions. The mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training. However, an increase, particularly in the maximal values, became obvious in 1994 and rose further in 1996. These extreme values provide both a health risk to the individual athlete and unfair competition. After a rule limiting hemoglobin values was introduced, the drop of the highest values was remarkable: among men 15 g/l (0.23 mmol/l) and among women 42 g/l (0.65 mmol/l). It would appear that the rule had achieved its goal of limiting extreme hemoglobin values. Yet the mean hemoglobin concentrations in men and women have continued to rise, suggesting the continued use of artificial methods to increase total hemoglobin mass.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280

Is this the link / abstract you meant to post?

This link / abstract does not describe a test showing no blood transfusions were made by Swedish skiers. Swedish skiers are not even mentioned.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Indeed you are correct, I misread Walkman's original post and proceeded to use the same terms, somewhat unconsciously. Dislike cheating, yes, not necessarily the cheater. I agree with you, otherwise would be incoherence from me. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Phew! Appreciate the clarification.

 

[BigMac]

How do you know this?
-The positive rates for riders during Wonderboy's reign was the same as it is today.
-It's largely the same cycling federation with almost no interest in protecting the integrity of the sport. Witness the UCI's commission on Wonderboy thinks his ban should be reduced.
-Senior management on the team-side haven't changed in decades except for maybe JV and saint David Brailsford.

It's not about some emotional/metaphysical thing either. The sport's administrators operate on a range between protecting the integrity of the game or not. Nothing suggest they are moving closer to protecting the integrity of the sport with anti-doping. Nothing.

I don't know, but you don't know it's there either, at least as it was back in the day. It's most of the times guesses considering what's new and and what's not, what changed and what stood the same. It was perhaps hyperbolic and an overstatement to say eradicated. Instead, read there are no team programs, just some folk doing it by themselves. What's different is a wider and bigger fanbase which draws more attention, and a new generation, perhaps not all clean, but new nevertheless. I wrote about it in the moderators thread once, something along the lines of it being nearly impossible for one to cover the others in such a big scale as it is the entire peloton. The odds of an entire 'mafioso' peloton being low, or at least, if such thing was true, at least bizarre and to a certain extent, not believable. Not only because - I believe it was hiero2 who said it - it goes against at least my experience and basic knowledge of the human mind, how it socially interacts and so on, but due to it requiring an even bigger scene with, say, filtering riders before they join the higher ranks and discard those who refuse to go with the trend, brainwashing, etc. etc., which is, again, not believable or highly unlikely. Individual doping, likely with some. Team doping, don't think so, no. The majority doping, hell no.

 

[The Hitch]

Still wouldn't explain why they (Swedes) aren't getting caught in competitions such as the World Championships, the Olympics, the world cup and in the Diamond League while others still are.

It's probably the other way around. They aren't caught during competitions because they don't cheat.

Wow this Sweeden country sounds amazing. Is there no such thing as crime there either. Theft, murder etc, do yall have words for these things in that country seeing as its this race born immune to all manner of immorality. No poverty either?

Is Sweeden the land John Lennon was singing about in "Imagine"?

 

[The Hitch]

I don't know, but you don't know it's there either, at least as it was back in the day. It's most of the times guesses considering what's new and and what's not, what changed and what stood the same. It was perhaps hyperbolic and an overstatement to say eradicated. Instead, read there are no team programs, just some folk doing it by themselves. What's different is a wider and bigger fanbase which draws more attention, and a new generation, perhaps not all clean, but new nevertheless. I wrote about it in the moderators thread once, something along the lines of it being nearly impossible for one to cover the others in such a big scale as it is the entire peloton. The odds of an entire 'mafioso' peloton being low, or at least, if such thing was true, at least bizarre and to a certain extent, not believable. Not only because - I believe it was hiero2 who said it - it goes against at least my experience and basic knowledge of the human mind, how it socially interacts and so on, but due to it requiring an even bigger scene with, say, filtering riders before they join the higher ranks and discard those who refuse to go with the trend, brainwashing, etc. etc., which is, again, not believable or highly unlikely. Individual doping, likely with some. Team doping, don't think so, no. The majority doping, hell no.

None of this post makes sense.

Which ironically does make sense, when you consider the source.

 

[BigMac]

None of this post makes sense.

Which ironically does make sense, when you consider the source.

Whatever. I don't know what you mean or are trying to imply in your second line either. It makes plenty of sence to me, perhaps it was how I wrote it or expressed myself what is confusing. What is it?

 

[del1962]

On the original question

While I have not changed my mind on the fact that doping is wrong, I have more sympathy than prior to the riders caught up in it and see the system as at fault.

An while we are on about cultures and doping, I think the culture of the pro peloton in the 90s made cyclists more likely to dope than the culture within the pro peloton today.

 

[DirtyWorks]

On the original question

While I have not changed my mind on the fact that doping is wrong, I have more sympathy than prior to the riders caught up in it and see the system as at fault.

An while we are on about cultures and doping, I think the culture of the pro peloton in the 90s made cyclists more likely to dope than the culture within the pro peloton today.

Let's be clear about "the system.' That's the UCI. Meanwhile, we still get the "lone athlete dopes all by himself" stories that are only occasionally true.

 

[del1962]

Let's be clear about "the system.' That's the UCI. Meanwhile, we still get the "lone athlete dopes all by himself" stories that are only occasionally true.

What I mean by the system is in the past the team, the DS's, the Doctors telling the riders they need to be on something extrea, they need to visit a Fuentes or Ferrari etc. Telling them they need to get on the program (as a term for doping), if it is the cultural norm in the team to dope then the pressure to resist is much harder and this is where the pro peloton was in the 90s.

 

[The Hitch]

Whatever. I don't know what you mean or are trying to imply in your second line either. It makes plenty of sence to me, perhaps it was how I wrote it or expressed myself what is confusing. What is it?

You said people wouldn't dope because there is a bigger fanbase. Bigger fanbase based on what? Euskaltel just folded, races are dying left right and centre, Italy has half in absolute terms the viewership it had in the 90's and 2000's despite having a bigger population. In any case howbigger fanbase would bring clean sport. If anything it would add incentive to dope die to higher potential profits.

 

[BigMac]

You said people wouldn't dope because there is a bigger fanbase. Bigger fanbase based on what? Euskaltel just folded, races are dying left right and centre, Italy has half in absolute terms the viewership it had in the 90's and 2000's despite having a bigger population. In any case howbigger fanbase would bring clean sport. If anything it would add incentive to dope die to higher potential profits.

It is my perception that while it may have decreased in some places, it certainly increased in others, starting with where I live. Cycling is more global now. Anyway, my point was that more attention, especially from the media, should make riders think twice.

 

[Tonton]

I don't know, but you don't know it's there either, at least as it was back in the day. It's most of the times guesses considering what's new and and what's not, what changed and what stood the same. It was perhaps hyperbolic and an overstatement to say eradicated. Instead, read there are no team programs, just some folk doing it by themselves. What's different is a wider and bigger fanbase which draws more attention, and a new generation, perhaps not all clean, but new nevertheless. I wrote about it in the moderators thread once, something along the lines of it being nearly impossible for one to cover the others in such a big scale as it is the entire peloton. The odds of an entire 'mafioso' peloton being low, or at least, if such thing was true, at least bizarre and to a certain extent, not believable. Not only because - I believe it was hiero2 who said it - it goes against at least my experience and basic knowledge of the human mind, how it socially interacts and so on, but due to it requiring an even bigger scene with, say, filtering riders before they join the higher ranks and discard those who refuse to go with the trend, brainwashing, etc. etc., which is, again, not believable or highly unlikely. Individual doping, likely with some. Team doping, don't think so, no. The majority doping, hell no.

Disagree. When you introduce ten, twenty, or even fifty neo-pros amongst 500 or 600 riders plus all the team staff, it is the neo-pros who adapt, not the other way around. No need to filter them before: they quickly learn to shut up, or they get bullied and/or forced out. Bassons, Simeoni...

I see progress in the sport, and I'd like to be as optimistic as you are...but wouldn't bet a dollar that team doping doesn't exist anymore.

 

[The Hitch]

It is my perception that while it may have decreased in some places, it certainly increased in others, starting with where I live.

You have figures to back that up?

Cycling is more global now.

Based on what? Where outside Europe does anyone care about the Tour? US- nowhere near as much as 2000's. Colombia? - nowhere near as much as 1980's.

Anyway, my point was that more attention, especially from the media, should make riders think twice.

Do you know what doping even is?

Its taking drugs that offer potential risk to your health and to the health of any children you may have in your future. It can cause severe deterioration of life in the future.

If doping didn't cause health risks it wouldn't be illegal.

These athletes are risking their lives. 50% of olympic athletes say they would voluntarily die within a year in order to get a gold medal.

And you think a perceived increase in media attention is going to stop them

Did you think that through?

People who have no qualms about risking their health, their lives, their careers the health of their children are going to suddenly refuse to dope because there might be a 0.1% increase in global cycling viewership?

 

[BigMac]

Disagree. When you introduce ten, twenty, or even fifty neo-pros amongst 500 or 600 riders plus all the team staff, it is the neo-pros who adapt, not the other way around. No need to filter them before: they quickly learn to shut up, or they get bullied and/or forced out. Bassons, Simeoni...

I see progress in the sport, and I'd like to be as optimistic as you are...but wouldn't bet a dollar that team doping doesn't exist anymore.

The point is, among many, I would expect at least one to talk. Not to mention that with time the older ones go, too. Some stay, but most go. I prefer to think that the reason they don't talk is because there's nothing for them to talk rather than be cynical and blame it on some sort of code of silence.

 

[del1962]

You have figures to back that up?


Based on what? Where outside Europe does anyone care about the Tour? US- nowhere near as much as 2000's. Colombia? - nowhere near as much as 1980's.




Do you know what doping even is?

Its taking drugs that offer potential risk to your health and to the health of any children you may have in your future. It can cause severe deterioration of life in the future.

If doping didn't cause health risks it wouldn't be illegal.

These athletes are risking their lives. 50% of olympic athletes say they would voluntarily die within a year in order to get a gold medal.

And you think a perceived increase in media attention is going to stop them

Did you think that through?

People who have no qualms about risking their health, their lives, their careers the health of their children are going to suddenly refuse to dope because there might be a 0.1% increase in global cycling viewership?

That may be true with some doping, but not true with all doping.

Doping is getting an advantage from a non natural source irrespective of whether it has an adverse effect on your health or not

 

[The Hitch]

That may be true with some doping, but not true with all doping.

Doping is getting an advantage from a non natural source irrespective of whether it has an adverse effect on your health or not

Name me a doping technique that actually improves how you ride that doesn't carry health risks

 

[BigMac]

You have figures to back that up?

I wrote 'it is my perception', the answer is obvious.

Based on what? Where outside Europe does anyone care about the Tour? US- nowhere near as much as 2000's. Colombia? - nowhere near as much as 1980's.

They care about the Tour as opposed to not care at all. Still doesn't change that there are more people watching cycling, even if just the Tour, on the contrary. Don't ask me for figures, as I don't have them. I have nothing objective to back it, it's just my perception of how cycling is evolving during these last years. One either agrees or not. If I'm shown the contrary, I will obviously think differently on this particular part.

Do you know what doping even is?

Its taking drugs that offer potential risk to your health and to the health of any children you may have in your future. It can cause severe deterioration of life in the future.

If doping didn't cause health risks it wouldn't be illegal.

These athletes are risking their lives. 50% of olympic athletes say they would voluntarily die within a year in order to get a gold medal.

And you think a perceived increase in media attention is going to stop them

Did you think that through?

People who have no qualms about risking their health, their lives, their careers the health of their children are going to suddenly refuse to dope because there might be a 0.1% increase in global cycling viewership?

And here enters the 'new generation'. Quoting another poster a few pages back (even though I know on a different subject), 'people think differently'. As I wrote many times, I'm quite sure there are dopers in the peloton, people who are willing to go to extremes, I just don't believe in team programs and certainly not in an entirely doped peloton.

 

[The Hitch]

They care about the Tour as opposed to not care at all.

Who are they?

Still doesn't change that there are more people watching cycling, even if just the Tour, on the contrary.

It does change that fact because you have absolutely no argument to back up that claim. You just say its what you feel. How do you feel this anyway. When did you start watching cycling? You revealed your age here before and cycling was already a decade into EPO before you would have been able to talk. You cannot possibly be able to compare the fanbase now to what it was in the 1990's and early 2000's, so what feelings are you working off?

And here enters the 'new generation'. Quoting another poster a few pages back (even though I know on a different subject), 'people think differently'. As I wrote many times, I'm quite sure there are dopers in the peloton, people who are willing to go to extremes, I just don't believe in team programs and certainly not in an entirely doped peloton.

Ok so the new generation of of 1990 did not stop doping and the new generation of 1995 did not stop doping and the new generation of 2000 did not stop doping and the new generation of 2005 and the new generation of 2010 did not stop doping.

But this current one just emerging. They bring with them a commitment to cleanliness? How does that work. Did Chernobyl change the genes of human beings, all babies born afterwards will refuse to dope?

 

[del1962]

Name me a doping technique that actually improves how you ride that doesn't carry health risks

EPO if taken properly under a doctors instructions

 

[Netserk]

Name me a doping technique that actually improves how you ride that doesn't carry health risks

(Some) Doping is like orange juice, only dangerous if taken in too big amounts

 

[kingjr]

Maybe doping, if done right, can actually be good for your health in a sport such as cycling.

 

[Netserk]

Maybe doping, if done right, can actually be good for your health in a sport such as cycling.

Yes, just ask Ferrari.