Has anyone changed their mind about doping?

[Netserk]

I did. You wrote.



Because I was a kid. And you have already called me stupid at this point, making your later sentence about how it's ok if you are a kid irrelevant.




That's how I interpreted this statement:

Try to read this post one more time, but where you read it carefully. Clearly you haven't understood what is written there.

Here's a hint:

Not considering someone a doper =/= Believing they are clean.

 

[King Boonen]

There is no discussion. Two poster are trying to make me out to be a racist/nationalist which is not the case.

Yo've indicated you believe Swedish people are less likely to dope. There is a discussion unless you wish to walk away (note I've not said racist) but lets move it to a different thread.

 

[Walkman]

Yo've indicated you believe Swedish people are less likely to dope. There is a discussion unless you wish to walk away (note I've not said racist) but lets move it to a different thread.

Yeah, but it's not because of the genetics but about the culture and that's a big difference.

 

[No_Balls]

What? It has nothing to do with him speaking english. Oscar Freire was my favorite rider back when I first started watching cycling.

This is not too uncommon although many people wont admit that. I must admit my well tuned radar sensed strong vibes in your case seeing as you were perfectly willing to give a free pass to Wonderboy as you now defend Froome. That is ridiculous. I called out Uniballer back in 1998 Vuelta on the basis of common sense.

*You dont go up from the hospital bed and discovers you are a GC contender.
*You dont go up from being a pack fodder to GC contender overnight.

Needless to say, you are as much defender of Omerta, despite trying convince the world that you are the number 1 anti-doping crusader, as the riders (only Contador as far as i know) you are bashing. You are a part of the problem.

Nicklas Axelsson doped, so what? I never said swedes can't dope, but merely they are probably more likely not to. And what has Kessiakoff to do with this?

You are willing to throw any rider/owner with a connection to Astana under the bus (because Contador and Vinokourov has ridden there) and yet are lending Kessiakoff a free pass despite the earlier comment that "swedes can dope". You are proving my point with the national bias. You are part of the problem.

 

[Walkman]

This is not too uncommon although many people wont admit that. I must admit my well tuned radar sensed strong vibes in your case seeing as you were perfectly willing to give a free pass to Wonderboy as you now defend Froome. That is ridiculous. I called out Uniballer back in 1998 Vuelta on the basis of common sense.

*You dont go up from the hospital bed and discovers you are a GC contender.
*You dont go up from being a pack fodder to GC contender overnight.

Needless to say, you are as much defender of Omerta, despite trying convince the world that you are the number 1 anti-doping crusader, as the riders (only Contador as far as i know) you are bashing. You are a part of the problem.

This is ridiculous. I was a kid when I started to watch cycling. I had no idea how bad Armstrong's disease was until I started to follow cycling more closely after a couple of years. If you called out Lance in 1998, then great, good for you.

I didn't have any idea how lousy Armstrong was earlier in his career since all the media was backing him and spinning the "youngest world champion ever" story.

I despise Lance Armstrong now since I know what he has done and you trying to peg me as a fanboys to Lance will never work. Read my post history and you will se that.

I bash all riders that have ever tested positive. Basso, Ullrich, Vino, piti, di Luca and yes, you guess it, Contador.

You call me a part of the problem and yet you have Contador as your avatar?

 

[King Boonen]

It's called the fu*king sidebar thread!!!

 

[Tonton]

Yeah, but it's not because of the genetics but about the culture and that's a big difference.

You sound like Wiggins with that culture BS. That's bogus. There are as many idiots, cheaters, greedy individuals per capita in every country.

 

[Walkman]

You are willing to throw any rider/owner with a connection to Astana under the bus (because Contador and Vinokourov has ridden there) and yet are lending Kessiakoff a free pass despite the earlier comment that "swedes can dope". You are proving my point with the national bias. You are part of the problem.

Are you serious?

I gave Kessiakoff a pass because nothing points to him being a doper, unless every rider who ever wins anything is to be considered doping. The guy is fighting to get a contract as we speak, and he is doing it by trying to avoid racing so that he can recover from over training and maybe do some good results at the end of the season.

Ever heard of a doper that suffers from over training?

Vino and Contador both tested positive and was sanctioned. Vino even tried to fool the system by faking his own retirement in order to have a one year ban. How can you even try and compare them to Kessiakoff?

And to the national bias thing. Just look at the statistics. Spain has many more doping cases than Sweden for example. As does the USA, Russia and the eastern Europe countries. It's a culture thing.

 

[Walkman]

You sound like Wiggins with that culture BS. That's bogus. There are as many idiots, cheaters, greedy individuals per capita in every country.

So why are so many athletes from Russia and eastern Europe getting caught in XC-skiing, biathlon, track and field while athletes from Sweden almost never gets caught?

They don't have idiots in Sweden?

 

[BigMac]

I'm a hypocrite to a certain degree, no problems with that. I'll always support Valverde and have him as my favourite rider no matter what, despite his past. But I believe it's different now and that doping is pretty much eradicated from the sport. The rest is cynicism, to claim the majority does it, it is.

Good posts Walkman, I also consider it to be culture influenced. Would discuss it on another thread.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

So why are so many athletes from Russia and eastern Europe getting caught in XC-skiing, biathlon, track and field while athletes from Sweden almost never gets caught?

They don't have idiots in Sweden?

According to the latest analysis I read it's because they don't test in Sweden... Like at all (barely a 100 EPO test combined through all swedish sports over the last year. = nothing)
There is a link to this somewhere in the bithlon thread. Can't seems to find it/not bothered enough to look carefully enough.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Then how can you not hate cheaters? Even if you don't have the intention of becoming "good", don't you get ****ed when people get the best of you because of PDE's?

And even if you don' have any ambitions, what about the riders who do and race clean? You seriously think they are idiots for trying to make it clean?

This sounds very much like, "then how can you not think and feel like I do? how can you possibly be an individual with your own value system and thoughts and feelings?"

Do you see the similarity?

People are different. Get used to it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Y
I posted facts. Pre EPO era the swedes dominated and test shows no blood transfusions were made.

Tests showed no blood transfusions were made.

Can you please explain the mechanics of this test and how it proves what you are claiming?

 

[Walkman]

According to the latest analysis I read it's because they don't test in Sweden... Like at all (barely a 100 EPO test combined through all swedish sports over the last year. = nothing)
There is a link to this somewhere in the bithlon thread. Can't seems to find it/not bothered enough to look carefully enough.

Still wouldn't explain why they (Swedes) aren't getting caught in competitions such as the World Championships, the Olympics, the world cup and in the Diamond League while others still are.

It's probably the other way around. They aren't caught during competitions because they don't cheat.

 

[BigMac]

This sounds very much like, "then how can you not think and feel like I do? how can you possibly be an individual with your own value system and thoughts and feelings?"

Do you see the similarity?

People are different. Get used to it.

Uhmm... Do you not believe in universal morality? The way you put things, that ''people are different'', it can be dangerous.

 

[Walkman]

Tests showed no blood transfusions were made.

Can you please explain the mechanics of this test and how it proves what you are claiming?

Did you read the abstract in the link I posted earlier?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Uhmm... Do you not believe in universal morality? The way you put things, that ''people are different'', it can be dangerous.

Hatred has nothing to do with morality.

IMO.

"If you compete clean you must hate cheaters".

This kind of thing makes me want to tell the person who is trying to tell me what I must or must not do to f*ck off.

Hate has nothing to do with morality, universal or not. It's an immature and emotionally unintelligent response that does nothing good for anyone.

WTF is this "saying 'people are different' is dangerous"? Are you saying all people are the same? That they all respond and feel the same given certain stimuli? What a *** notion.

ffs.

Seriously?

You and I are nothing alike. Good grief.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Did you read the abstract in the link I posted earlier?

Huh? I responded to your post. What link? Was it even in this thread? Anyone jumping on the holier than thou nationalistic train of righteous indignation makes my eyes glaze over. So if it was in that post or afterwards I probably missed it as my eyes bled at reading your theory on national purity.

 

[laurel1969]

I think it was much much easier to be a clean rider up until about 1990 than it was afterwards. After 1990, if you wanted to be competitive, you had to dope. End of.

Now, its not quite so easy to tell the difference between talent and dope, as the doping looks to be reined in a little, certainly in relation to the crazy 90's. You've got people like Froome, with no pedigree and a dodgy back story, but even with great riders like Nibali and Contador there are lingering doubts.

I struggle to watch it these days, if I'm honest. Even more so after re-watching those amazing TdFs in the mid-80s with Hinault, Lemond and poor old Fignon.

But, if I had fought through the juniors, amateurs, semi-pro and into the pelton, would I dope? Of course.

Its easy to occupy the moral high ground from a sofa, not just with regards to cycling, but any aspect of life.

 

[Tonton]

Still wouldn't explain why they (Swedes) aren't getting caught in competitions such as the World Championships, the Olympics, the world cup and in the Diamond League while others still are.

It's probably the other way around. They aren't caught during competitions because they don't cheat.

Ten seconds on google, and that's what the Swedes are saying... so dip a herring in the cup before you smell the coffee . Cheers!

http://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/pagefiles/12497/R2010-21-Doping in Sweden-webb.pdf

 

[BigMac]

Hatred has nothing to do with morality.

IMO.

"If you compete clean you must hate cheaters".

This kind of thing makes me want to tell the person who is trying to tell me what I must or must not do to f*ck off.

Has nothing to do with morality, universal or not.

Forget hatred and take the word dislike instead, as it seems obvious it is what he means. I'd think myself that disliking cheaters was or should be an objective notion, at least for those with their moral compass in place. If you're cheating, you're acting immorally, i'd say, but apparently you do not agree and think it is subjective?

WTF is this "saying 'people are different' is dangerous"? Are you saying all people are the same? That they all respond and feel the same given certain stimuli? What a *** notion.

ffs.

Seriously?

You and I are nothing alike. Good grief.

Please, calm down. Not what I said, or at least meant. Take the context into consideration. It's not that people being different is dangerous, however, in certain cases, there should be no room for subjectivity and by applying that card as an excuse can be dangerous at times as then there will be no difference between what's right and wrong. Just opinion.

 

[Walkman]

Ten seconds on google, and that's what the Swedes are saying... so dip a herring in the cup before you smell the coffee . Cheers!

http://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/pagefiles/12497/R2010-21-Doping in Sweden-webb.pdf

So what are they saying? And what are you trying to say?

 

[Walkman]

Hatred has nothing to do with morality.

IMO.

"If you compete clean you must hate cheaters".

This kind of thing makes me want to tell the person who is trying to tell me what I must or must not do to f*ck off.

I never told him anything like that. I was asking since our feelings towards dopers was different. Maybe you should read my posts a little closer and with regards the the abstract, if you jump in, right in the middle of a discussion you will miss things.

Also, I never said anything about national purity, you dragged that subject into the discussion. Culture is not the same thing as genetics and I am arguing that different cultures sees differently on doping an therefore some nations will be more prone to doping.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755280

Hemoglobin data have been available from ski teams beginning from 1987, and from 1989 to 1999 we have followed hemoglobin values in elite cross-country skiers in international competitions. The mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training. However, an increase, particularly in the maximal values, became obvious in 1994 and rose further in 1996. These extreme values provide both a health risk to the individual athlete and unfair competition. After a rule limiting hemoglobin values was introduced, the drop of the highest values was remarkable: among men 15 g/l (0.23 mmol/l) and among women 42 g/l (0.65 mmol/l). It would appear that the rule had achieved its goal of limiting extreme hemoglobin values. Yet the mean hemoglobin concentrations in men and women have continued to rise, suggesting the continued use of artificial methods to increase total hemoglobin mass.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Forget hatred and take the word dislike instead, as it seems obvious it is what he means.

I am not going to forget hatred. It's a word that gets bandied around here and is what I was responding to. Let him speak for himself.

I'd think myself that disliking cheaters was or should be an objective notion, at least for those with their moral compass in place.

I dislike cheating. The act of cheating. Perhaps it's just semantics, but I am not going to dislike a cheater because someone tells me I have to. I think Cadel cheated. I like Cadel. He is far more than his cheating, so much more. As is every other person. SO no, I do not hate or even dislike cheaters. I dislike unlikeable people.

If that's not how you operate, then fine. I can accept that. But I have forgiven people who have wronged me and mine, most grievously, and can tell you there is more power in forgiveness than hatred.

If you're cheating, you're acting immorally, i'd say, but apparently you do not agree and think it is subjective?

No. All you can say is your reading comprehension is off-kilter.

Disliking cheating, yes sure, that can be an objective notion.
Disliking a person because they cheat? F*ck no. That's immaturity or myopic.

I embrace my flaws, and accept them. I can therefore accept others in their flaws.

The world needs more acceptance and understanding and less hate, judgement and "objective dislike of people". It's what leads to conflict and war.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I never told him anything like that. I was asking since our feelings towards dopers was different. Maybe you should read my posts a little closer

There's not much more annoying for me than someone to suggest I did not read their post.

Here's what you wrote:

Then how can you not hate cheaters? Even if you don't have the intention of becoming "good", don't you get ****ed when people get the best of you because of PDE's?

ie

I, Walkman, hate cheaters.
You, do not hate cheaters.
HOW CAN YOU NOT HATE CHEATERS!!?

ie you are not acting like I do - how is that possible?

Explain to me, forget all the stuff, how this is not reading your post clearly - the words are right there in black and fricken white.