Have bike makers gone mad?

[Black Dog]

That said - at least they're out there exercising ... back in my native NZ they'd be sitting in front of the box watching the 15th replay of the previous night's rugby international, resting a greasy fry up on their beer gut and calling the ref a blind idiot!

There are times on the bike when I wish that I was the guy in front of the TV with the greasy fries or even the golfer eek: ok not the golfer). Suffering makes one question the wisdom of their choices.


kiwirider: When I am riding in the gats on the parkway should I be looking for a kiwi in an All Black jersey? Don't worry I won't ask if you are an Aussie, I can tell the difference between the accents.

 

[Black Dog]

Hope cycling clothing dosen't go like golf....although Garmin could be the start

I think that cycling clothing went the way of golf when lance started wearing mid calf black socks during races. And we all know what lance does so does...

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Properly taking BB out, overhauling/greasing headset, adding grease to the hubs, truing the wheels off the buke, tires off, etc.

Nobody takes the bottom bracket OUT on a factory bike when it comes out of the box. Some of the better shops would adjust the bottom bracket since they generally always come adjusted too tight from the factory.

HOWEVER, that is a thing of the past since cup and cone bearings are long gone and today everything is a sealed cartridge bearing. There is nothing to adjust.

The same thing goes for the hubs. They are all cartridge bearings today so there is nothing to adjust.

There are many people who would argue that you can true the wheels equally well on the bike using the brake calipers as a guide. That is all a truing stand really is anyway. I think the truing stand is a little bit more precise, yet I don't think it is a huge difference either way.

As far as taking the tires off to true the wheels. I have never even heard of anybody who thought that would help you get a better true on the wheels of a brand new bike. The only reason you would take the tire off is if the wheel is so out of true that you actually would see a wobble or a hop in it. That never happens on a brand new bike.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

You know what else is out of control? The pricing on Shimano Dura Ace groups. The crazy thing is that people pay it.

Why pay that kind of cash when you can get Campy for only a little more? Why would anybody put parts from a company that builds fishing equipment on their bike?

Ask anybody who has been involved with bicycle racing for more than 20 years. Campagnolo builds the best stuff, by far. All the new people are wowed and amazed by the Japanese stuff. The old timers have seen it all before.

The Sram stuff is not bad. However, I would much rather have Italian made Campy stuff instead.

 

[badboyberty]

.... The only material thing that changed throughout this time was the place of the Six13 frame in Cannondale's model range....

Bad example because the way the Six-13 was put together totally changed in this time period. It's actually a really good example of how different two bits of identical looking carbon can be. And how the method's often mean as much as the materials

The carbon tubes in Six-13's were originally inflated in-situ. This way of putting Six-13's together was way more labour intensive but theoretically should have resulted in a better joining of the alloy and carbon sections, resulting in a stiffer frame. The new way allows preformed carbon tubes to be inserted and bonded directly to the alloy, much cheaper but not as precise.

 

[Pietro]

Nobody takes the bottom bracket OUT on a factory bike when it comes out of the box. Some of the better shops would adjust the bottom bracket since they generally always come adjusted too tight from the factory.

HOWEVER, that is a thing of the past since cup and cone bearings are long gone and today everything is a sealed cartridge bearing. There is nothing to adjust.

The same thing goes for the hubs. They are all cartridge bearings today so there is nothing to adjust.

There are many people who would argue that you can true the wheels equally well on the bike using the brake calipers as a guide. That is all a truing stand really is anyway. I think the truing stand is a little bit more precise, yet I don't think it is a huge difference either way.

As far as taking the tires off to true the wheels. I have never even heard of anybody who thought that would help you get a better true on the wheels of a brand new bike. The only reason you would take the tire off is if the wheel is so out of true that you actually would see a wobble or a hop in it. That never happens on a brand new bike.

Never say never. When I built bikes outta boxes, I and the service department I ran, ALWAYS took the BBs out and were amazed at how dry these and the headsets were.

Most hubs on bikes outta boxes are shimano and all are cup and cone.

Use the brakes to true. You are just telling me why bikes that come out of most bike shops are so crappy when they are new. Brake calipers are just another truing stand..and use vice grips to turn the nipples?

NEVER seen that a new bike? These wheels are made by a machine and use torque to assume they are true. Most are not stress relieved, are not round are mostly undertensioned. Ya want to get even tension on a new wheel? Better do roundness, cannot do that w/o taking the tire off.

Maybe the 'new bikes' you have seen are different than the 'new bikes' I have seen. Most bike service guys haven't figured out that spending the time now will reduce significantly the time spent later 'fixing' the bike because it was so poorly put together. It's about SERVICE, keeping the new bike rider happy. He is NEVER happy when the wheels go to ****e on the first ride.

 

[kiwirider]

Bad example because the way the Six-13 was put together totally changed in this time period. It's actually a really good example of how different two bits of identical looking carbon can be. And how the method's often mean as much as the materials

The carbon tubes in Six-13's were originally inflated in-situ. This way of putting Six-13's together was way more labour intensive but theoretically should have resulted in a better joining of the alloy and carbon sections, resulting in a stiffer frame. The new way allows preformed carbon tubes to be inserted and bonded directly to the alloy, much cheaper but not as precise.

According to the information I was given about the models I was talking about, they were all built and "lugged" the same way. We're talking about the years where they still had the clear coat models and you can see the "lugs" at the end of the tubes.

Regardless ... how much more labour intensive can the building have been to account for $8k price difference per bike? I mean, if it took each assembler a couple of months to do a single frame, yeah I could maybe start to agree with you ... but, c'mon ...

 

[biker77]

Never say never. When I built bikes outta boxes, I and the service department I ran, ALWAYS took the BBs out and were amazed at how dry these and the headsets were.

Most hubs on bikes outta boxes are shimano and all are cup and cone.

Use the brakes to true. You are just telling me why bikes that come out of most bike shops are so crappy when they are new. Brake calipers are just another truing stand..and use vice grips to turn the nipples?

NEVER seen that a new bike? These wheels are made by a machine and use torque to assume they are true. Most are not stress relieved, are not round are mostly undertensioned. Ya want to get even tension on a new wheel? Better do roundness, cannot do that w/o taking the tire off.

Maybe the 'new bikes' you have seen are different than the 'new bikes' I have seen. Most bike service guys haven't figured out that spending the time now will reduce significantly the time spent later 'fixing' the bike because it was so poorly put together. It's about SERVICE, keeping the new bike rider happy. He is NEVER happy when the wheels go to ****e on the first ride.

Pietro, sorry, but this is the most bs post ever. How are you determning that sealed bearings are dry? You should probably contact shimano and other manufacturers as you are better than their QC departments.

I apologize if your service dept. used some kind of crappy loose bearing headset and bb that needed your expertise.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Most hubs on bikes outta boxes are shimano and all are cup and cone.

That shows how long you have been away from a bike shop. Almost all new bikes, even the cheap ones, come with sealed cartridge bearings these days.

Use the brakes to true. You are just telling me why bikes that come out of most bike shops are so crappy when they are new. Brake calipers are just another truing stand..and use vice grips to turn the nipples?

Way to exaggerate there. Of course it is easier to true wheels on the truing stand. That is the way I have always done it. However, I have seen people do an incredible job leaving it on the bike and using the brake calipers.

NEVER seen that a new bike? These wheels are made by a machine and use torque to assume they are true. Most are not stress relieved, are not round are mostly undertensioned. Ya want to get even tension on a new wheel? Better do roundness, cannot do that w/o taking the tire off.

Although the wheels are machine built, it's not like they don't have humans check them before they leave the factory. So most aren't that badly out of true.

If you can't true for roundness without taking the tire off the rim, that is your shortcoming as a mechanic. Of course it is easier with the tire off, however it can be done with the tire on if you pay attention.

 

[Pietro]

Pietro, sorry, but this is the most bs post ever. How are you determning that sealed bearings are dry? You should probably contact shimano and other manufacturers as you are better than their QC departments.

I apologize if your service dept. used some kind of crappy loose bearing headset and bb that needed your expertise.

Taking the cups out of the BB shell and the shell and left hand cup INSIDES are dry. No grease into the shell and into the LH cup is probably the biggest reason for creaking in newer bicycles.

Taking the headset apart and the inside the headtube is dry, another source of creaking. Sorry if that bursts some sort of bubble for you.

I'm out.

 

[Pietro]

That shows how long you have been away from a bike shop. Almost all new bikes, even the cheap ones, come with sealed cartridge bearings these days.



Way to exaggerate there. Of course it is easier to true wheels on the truing stand. That is the way I have always done it. However, I have seen people do an incredible job leaving it on the bike and using the brake calipers.



Although the wheels are machine built, it's not like they don't have humans check them before they leave the factory. So most aren't that badly out of true.

If you can't true for roundness without taking the tire off the rim, that is your shortcoming as a mechanic. Of course it is easier with the tire off, however it can be done with the tire on if you pay attention.

NOT easier, a better job. If you are interested in speed, by all means don't use proper tools. If you are interested in doing a complete job, take the tire off.

I'm out.

 

[Catty69]

I think that cycling clothing went the way of golf when lance started wearing mid calf black socks during races. And we all know what lance does so does...

He has taken that further and uglied up an already ugly bike. That yellow TT with blue wheels. Ugh.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

He has taken that further and uglied up an already ugly bike. That yellow TT with blue wheels. Ugh.

I suppose Trek gave him the yellow bike assuming he would be wearing yellow!

Ha Ha!

 

[SlantParallelogram]

I think that cycling clothing went the way of golf when lance started wearing mid calf black socks during races.

I think the problem is that his socks are way too long. I kind of like the way that standard ankle length cycling socks look in black.

Black socks look cool with white or yellow shoes.

Somebody else mentioned this earlier:
What is up with 400 dollar cycling shoes?

I don't care if the soles are carbon. The plastic/nylon soled shoes are almost as light and almost as stiff.

 

[Catty69]

I suppose Trek gave him the yellow bike assuming he would be wearing yellow!

Ha Ha!

Ohh. Didn't think of that. Bad form there.

 

[biker77]

Taking the cups out of the BB shell and the shell and left hand cup INSIDES are dry. No grease into the shell and into the LH cup is probably the biggest reason for creaking in newer bicycles.

Taking the headset apart and the inside the headtube is dry, another source of creaking. Sorry if that bursts some sort of bubble for you.

I'm out.

No, the bubble is still intact and is doing a good job of keeping the bs out. New BBs have external cups that thread into the frame. There is no way you can state that the cups are dry. If you are trying to say the threads are dry, then you should say that. Even for me though, that is a 2 minute job that does not involve any expertise at all.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

No, the bubble is still intact and is doing a good job of keeping the bs out. New BBs have external cups that thread into the frame. There is no way you can state that the cups are dry. If you are trying to say the threads are dry, then you should say that. Even for me though, that is a 2 minute job that does not involve any expertise at all.

On most lower end bikes, they still use bottom brackets that are inside the shell and after building many of these, I have to agree that with most makers(Trek being the exception), the BB shell is very dry, no grease at all. Ditto with the higher end bikes with external bearings, the shell is dry, the spindle is dry...a cause for future creaking for sure. The external BB system is quite easy to disassemble and re-assemble properly, wish that the makers would do this for us though.

Similar with headsets, I gotta say.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

On most lower end bikes, they still use bottom brackets that are inside the shell

That is true, except even most of those have switched to sealed cartridge bearings these days.

The headset bearings hardly even move unless you are riding at a walking pace. How much grease do you think those bearings need? They aren't axle bearings on a car that have to spin at thousands of rpms to handle highway speeds and thousands of pounds of weight.

 

[biker77]

Fair point about lower end bikes. I unfairly did not consider these in my post.

The kids in my neighbourhood must have had their huffys built by Pietro as their BBs don`t creak a bit, even after being left outside overnight in torrential rain.

Oh wait, kids bikes from a bike shop run hundreds of dollars so most kids can`t afford them.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

That is true, except even most of those have switched to sealed cartridge bearings these days.

The headset bearings hardly even move unless you are riding at a walking pace. How much grease do you think those bearings need? They aren't axle bearings on a car that have to spin at thousands of rpms to handle highway speeds and thousands of pounds of weight.

Enough grease around the bearings to prevent a creak is all. Not the bearings, the cups in the headtube, the BB shell. Even though the bike, headset and crank work fine, when they make noise, they come in for us to investigate/fix.
Making noises go away is our lot in life in the trenches of the bike shop.

 

[levigor]

I have to admit that I am amazed at how quickly, almost absurdly quickly, that prices for bikes and components have gone through the roof of late. A case in point:

A 2009 Hyundai Accent lists (no discounts mind you) for $12,745.

A new Pinarello Prince, with Super Record group and set of Zipp 404 hoops in a package discout from a reputable dealer costs $11,420.61.

I hope you were not expecting a power meter with that?

Wow, that seems like a lot for a bike when you compare it to a car, in defense of the bike I have to say that the Hyundai accent or accIDent as I like to call it is a horrible vehicle, however this is no way justifies the price of the bike.
I guess professionals will dig deep down in their wallet to buy professional gear that suits there needs. Question is can "as good as" quality be bought for less....

 

[embankmentlb]

Almost every bike manufacturer offers a road bike under 1k$. Obviously a 1k bike is not the quality of a 10k bike but the 1k$ bike is just as safe & works 95% as well.

 

[laziali]

I have to laugh at all you posters criticising top end "pro" bikes when you've never owned one. A bit like people who have an opinion about whether Ferrari or Lamborghini is better.

Now for a comparison from someone who actually knows. My (carbon-era) bike history is:

1. 1994 Giant Cadex CFR1 with Ultegra STI. At the time brilliant, but these days very slow and heavy. Approx $3,000 when a bus ticket was 80cents

2. Recently bought a Colnago CX-1 with SRAM Red and some robust Racing 1 hoops. Discounted to approx $7,500

What an unbelievable difference. It would be fair to say that the Colnago is easily twice as stiff and responsive and perhaps 30% lighter. It is in a whole new ballpark. Worth every dollar and more.

 

[runninboy]

I have to laugh at all you posters criticising top end "pro" bikes when you've never owned one. A bit like people who have an opinion about whether Ferrari or Lamborghini is better.

Now for a comparison from someone who actually knows. My (carbon-era) bike history is:

1. 1994 Giant Cadex CFR1 with Ultegra STI. At the time brilliant, but these days very slow and heavy. Approx $3,000 when a bus ticket was 80cents

2. Recently bought a Colnago CX-1 with SRAM Red and some robust Racing 1 hoops. Discounted to approx $7,500

What an unbelievable difference. It would be fair to say that the Colnago is easily twice as stiff and responsive and perhaps 30% lighter. It is in a whole new ballpark. Worth every dollar and more.

Wow it must be great to be as smart as u
Guess what? Some people on this board have actually owned better carbon bikes than you
Case in point my 1988 Kestrel 4000 which retailed for far more than your lousy Giant years later. I say this as a Giant afficiando and formerly sponsored team member those early Giants sucked. Until the compact frame Giants were not a "top end pro bike"

Oh and another little tidbit, I wasn't stupid enough to buy my "top end pro bike" for its $3600 retail. I received mine for first place in a race you could only dream of winning.
Whats the best prize you ever won in a race? I'm guessing something along the lines of chain lube, a mismatched set of tires and a set of neon pink lycra gloves, size youth

 

[laziali]

Runningboy,

I seriously doubt that you came close to as many wins as me. You would have had to be riding for your nation at representative level. No, didn't think so. The give away of course is your Kestrel - strictly a bike for triathletes - and I can recall AS A FACT that NO-ONE riding the national series in the late 80s or early 90s was riding a Kestrel.

Nice try chump.