Heras positive overturned

[Señor_Contador]

I like this post.

There are a lot of your's i don't like, but this gave me a better glimpse into the Spanish side of things and that's something I don't have. Thanks...

People keep overemphacizing the role of the Manzano affair in all subsequent doping investigations in Spain but it wasn't, by far, the most important turning point.

It's like saying that Bush's "he tried to kill my daddy!", when talking about why he invaded Iraq, is the turning point in the fight against Islamic terrorism.

It's just nuts.

 

[Señor_Contador]

The interesting tidbit in this Mad Hatter's tea party is that Heras is a "well known snitch," which would explain why he could not get a Pro Tour contract. The rest needs Oliver Stone and Kevin Costner to figure it out.

Heras became a well-known snitch after his positive. He wasn't a snitch before that though.

Some of you have real problems comprehending what is being said. I bet talking to you in person must be an irritating experience.

 

[Señor_Contador]

I'm glad I'm not Spanish. I would be embarassed. I have nothing against the people of Spain, I've never been there but heard it's beautiful and the people are wonderful. But a bit too soft when it comes to character, I'm afraid--at least in the sport of cycling.

I'm a Spaniard and I'm not embarrased of the doping issue. Why should I.

Why is it that it's so easy to blame all Spaniards for things done by only but a few?

Why is it so easy for some of you to hate?

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

This conspiracy angle does not make sense. If Chewbacca lives on Endor then you must acquit.

Heras was set up so that he would rat on the Spanish dopers. His reward for talking was to have his positive overturned, but this took six years to happen. Of all the riders, doctors, and team owners involved in Puerto, not a single one is prosecuted. No rider even served a suspension. Who knew that inspector Clouseau moved to Spain.

 

[palmerq]

Some of you have real problems comprehending what is being said. I bet talking to you in person must be an irritating experience.

ok, please try not to be too personal with the posts, but good discussion please keep it going.

 

[Willy_Voet]

I'm having a hard time following this...

Well, in the case of Heras he is a well-know snitch....He is like the Snoop Doggy Dog of the cycling world.

How do we know Heras is a snitch, again? Because he and Snoop Dog aren't in jail?

No, I do. I'm simply saying that that postive was a set up. He clearly doped. There's no doubt about that. But I believe that particular positive was cooked up.

So he was doping, but that particular day was clean and the positive was made up?

M'kay.

insert (rolleyes + tin foil emoticon) x 10

 

[hrotha]

I'm a Spaniard and I'm not embarrased of the doping issue. Why should I.

Why is it that it's so easy to blame all Spaniards for things done by only but a few?

Why is it so easy for some of you to hate?

Because of Spaniards like you justifying doping and defending dopers all the time.

 

[Chef_Vodnik]

I'm having a hard time following this...



How do we know Heras is a snitch, again? Because he and Snoop Dog aren't in jail?



So he was doping, but that particular day was clean and the positive was made up?

M'kay.

insert (rolleyes + tin foil emoticon) x 10

No, he's saying Heras was chosen as a big target to finally test positive and that everyone else was doing it as well, but he was chosen to go down.

Does not make it any less tin foil hattily, but it's a start at least

 

[Señor_Contador]

Because of Spaniards like you justifying doping and defending dopers all the time.

Right, so the actions of one person, meaning me, warrant the hate of millions of Spaniards?

Where are you from in Spain son?

 

[Señor_Contador]

No, he's saying Heras was chosen as a big target to finally test positive and that everyone else was doing it as well, but he was chosen to go down.

Does not make it any less tin foil hattily, but it's a start at least

Think about it for a second. Back then, in 2005, the thought of a Spaniard testing positive in Spain during the Vuelta was just laughable. Sad but laughable.

I mean, just look at the list of Vuelta winners during the past 15 years and you tell me how many tested positive during the Vuelta.

Jan, Vino, Alberto, Aitor, et cetera, all busted during competitions other than the Vuelta. Look at the Tour's past 8 winners. Seven of them either tested positive or are neck deep in legal trouble for their past doping practices either during the Tour or preparing for the Tour. Look at the Giro. Same thing.

You tell me that particulat positive was not a set up.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I can understand a bit of the hate-on for Senor Conti, some of his posts are a bit obtusely apologetic if not out-right pro-dope pandering...

But, I have to say that the Manzano time-line et al clarified a lot of stuff for me. Targeted, politically motivated pos? Based on the history of those who get popped, and those who skate, perhaps not such a crazy scenario.

He's not crying out that riders didn't dope, but he's rather saying that it's a much larger political scene that may be creating the goat-show in the first place. Not so crazy?

RFEC obviously has their best interest in mind. Enough said.

 

[hrotha]

Right, so the actions of one person, meaning me, warrant the hate of millions of Spaniards?

Where are you from in Spain son?

You're the one talking about how the average Spaniard doesn't care about doping on a regular basis, so don't give me that "I'm just one person" line. The perceptions add up.

I'm from Madrid.

 

[gregod]

As a one-time big fan of Roberto I guess I'm happy about this. If only that I think he was unfairly blacklisted from the sport (and maybe set-up) when others were just as egregious of dopers as he.

But not for a second do I think he was clean, nowhere near it. And any victory he, or anyone else would like to claim from this would be very hollow. At best, the 2005 Vuelta should have no winner.

Still, he was a great rider to watch in his day.

my sentiments exactly.

 

[Marva32]

This just continues to show me that doping allegations in Spain are irrelevant. I no longer care what the adjudications say, I have no faith in that system.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I can understand a bit of the hate-on for Senor Conti, some of his posts are a bit obtusely apologetic if not out-right pro-dope pandering...

But, I have to say that the Manzano time-line et al clarified a lot of stuff for me. Targeted, politically motivated pos? Based on the history of those who get popped, and those who skate, perhaps not such a crazy scenario.

He's not crying out that riders didn't dope, but he's rather saying that it's a much larger political scene that may be creating the goat-show in the first place. Not so crazy?

RFEC obviously has their best interest in mind. Enough said.

Sorry but Sen Contadors posts do not make any sense.

Heras gets set-up to test positive so the authorities can have a big name caught and then hand back the result years later?

Also its amazing that Heras (the snitch) information has never come to light.
If Heras did talk then he would have had to admit his own doping, which would make taking a civil case pointless and he would have received a shorter sentence and could have been back riding within a year - none of those scenarios happened.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Sorry but Sen Contadors posts do not make any sense.

Heras gets set-up to test positive so the authorities can have a big name caught and then hand back the result years later?

Also its amazing that Heras (the snitch) information has never come to light.
If Heras did talk then he would have had to admit his own doping, which would make taking a civil case pointless and he would have received a shorter sentence and could have been back riding within a year - none of those scenarios happened.

Yeah, but half the time my don't either. Conjecture is my best friend...

 

[Señor_Contador]

You're the one talking about how the average Spaniard doesn't care about doping on a regular basis, so don't give me that "I'm just one person" line. The perceptions add up.

I'm from Madrid.

Am I??? Really??? ½ of Spaniards do not know who Alberto Contador is, much less know what doping is. Yet you, someone who has no problem whatsoever backstabbing his/her own people, allow all these non Spaniards to spew out vile on all Spaniards. Pure an simple demagogy based on "perceptions".

Say you walk down the street and bump on a Dutch guy. Does it seem normal to you to hate all Dutch people because you bumped against one?

Epic.

I've never, in my life, met a crowd so easy to engage in hate monguering. You can tell because once say the things this crowd wants to hear you need not clarification or sources, you immediatly get a wink and a pat in the back. But Lo and Behold you say something that sounds remotely like being pro-dope and all of a sudden you get crushed by the crowd, attacked from every angle, asked to provide as much proof as possible, and all of a sudden people go stupid on you, unable to understand what you say, and even when you do you get dismissed as if you've just cussed everyone out.

You people need to chill out.

 

[Lanark]

Am I??? Really??? ½ of Spaniards do not know who Alberto Contador is, much less know what doping is. Yet you, someone who has no problem whatsoever backstabbing his/her own people, allow all these non Spaniards to spew out vile on all Spaniards. Pure an simple demagogy based on "perceptions".

Say you walk down the street and bump on a Dutch guy. Does it seem normal to you to hate all Dutch people because you bumped against one?

Epic.

I've never, in my life, met a crowd so easy to engage in hate monguering. You can tell because once say the things this crowd wants to hear you need not clarification or sources, you immediatly get a wink and a pat in the back. But Lo and Behold you say something that sounds remotely like being pro-dope and all of a sudden you get crushed by the crowd, attacked from every angle, asked to provide as much proof as possible, and all of a sudden people go stupid on you, unable to understand what you say, and even when you do you get dismissed as if you've just cussed everyone out.

You people need to chill out.

I've never seen someone who tries so hard to attack a certain perception, but in the meantime does nothing but reinforce it.

 

[VeloCity]

You tell me that particulat positive was not a set up.

OK. It was not a set up. It wasn't the greatest moment in dope testing history, I don't think anyone will disagree with that, but don't you think that if it were a set up that it'd have been "handled" a whole lot better? All they'd have to do is say both A and B were positive and it'd be done, no questions asked. The fact that it was such a mess - and such a public mess - is imo actually evidence that it wasn't a set up at all.

 

[Señor_Contador]

I've never seen someone who tries so hard to attack a certain perception, but in the meantime does nothing but reinforce it.

And... I rest my case.

 

[Willy_Voet]

And... I rest my case.

What I like about the CN forum is the chance to interact with people from other countries and get their point of view. It is true that a large fraction of contributors hear are from Anglophone countries, but there are still some prominent members from other "major" cycling countries (Germany, Spain, Italy, France, Belgium, etc.). I value all their opinions and input. Seriously.

There may be some folks posting above (myself included) who have made some snarky comments in response to your opinions and posts, however, to characterize the group as "hate monguering" is really going too far. I really don't think anyone here hates Spaniards.

I find you to be something like a F. Landis or LA apologist, but Heras is your man of choice. This may not sit nicely with you, but it is my perspective. I suspect other people feel the same way and have attempted to draw out some justification or further explanation for your indifference to Heras's doping habit. But when your rebuttals turn to sputtering claims of national bias/hatred, you really sound absurd...almost BPC-like.

I've probably wasted too much time trying to rationalize all this to you, but I felt someone had to say it once before everyone really does pile it on.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yeah, but half the time my don't either. Conjecture is my best friend...

And that is fair enough, (we are all entitled to our opinions) - a key difference here is that you don't attempt to pass it off as fact.

 

[Señor_Contador]

And that is fair enough, (we are all entitled to our opinions) - a key difference here is that you don't attempt to pass it off as fact.

Which, of course, that's what you're insinuating I do, even though I sometimes follow my comments with a "it's just my opinion".

This is so irritating.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

And that is fair enough, (we are all entitled to our opinions) - a key difference here is that you don't attempt to pass it off as fact.

Yeah, well what can you do...

I try to only get cranky when I KNOW some 'fact' being presented is actually not a fact. Although, that is still a work-in-progress...

Loving the discussions going on right now! And Dr. Mas, you're at your best when you're trying to be funny. Good times!

 

[icefire]

RFEC and the High Council of Sport will appeal the decision of the Supreme Court of Castilla y Leon.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2011/06/27/ciclismo/1309197413.html

Unfortunately they remark that the reason for the appeal is that sport and civil justice work with different mechanisms. Let's hope they can present a more solid argument, because that story of the different mechanisms sounds like just bullshit and will not stand any serious challenge in a court of civil law.