Heras positive overturned

[Susan Westemeyer]

Everybody chill out and cool it with the personal comments.

Susan

 

[L'arriviste]

RFEC and the High Council of Sport will appeal the decision of the Supreme Court of Castilla y Leon.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2011/06/27/ciclismo/1309197413.html

Unfortunately they remark that the reason for the appeal is that sport and civil justice work with different mechanisms. Let's hope they can present a more solid argument, because that story of the different mechanisms sounds like just bullshit and will not stand any serious challenge in a court of civil law.

Well I would think that a point of law such as this one is the only way by which they can legitimately lodge an appeal. The Supreme Court is not there to decide on facts, after all, but to clarify the meaning of the original statute.

I think that, based on my reading of the judgement, this is a boundary dispute that probably needs to be cleared up in order to avoid future confusion, which is what I think we've been left with after the Valladolid result. And of course this will now have nothing to do with Heras anymore.

In my country of origin (Britain), there were quite a number of these "private body acting as a public body" overstep cases arising in the 90s due to a programme of systematic privatisation by the governments of the day, and it took a lot of effort from the House of Lords then too.

 

[Paco_P]

Heras won't regain either of those. He doped. His sanction is overturned on a technicality. He's not innocent.

I think this needs to be repeated. His sanction was overturned in a regular courtroom, where the argument that some procedure had not been followed in a way that wasn't completely in accord with the law was accepted - I think the reasoning in these things is always - the damage done to the accused doper is tremendous if the accusation is not proved - while the damage done to the system is minimal if an accusation is thrown out for being shabbily put together - and so a decision like this should be seen as the courts chastising the sporting authorities for not doing things completely correctly. It neither means that Heras did not dope, nor that the Spanish sporting bodies are working properly.

That someone got off on a technicality is not a demonstration of his innocence - even if it is supposedly necessary to preserve the integrity of the system for those in the US - think of OJ Simpson. The problem here, as in the case of OJ, is that the system has less credibility than the accused.

 

[Paco_P]

This just continues to show me that doping allegations in Spain are irrelevant. I no longer care what the adjudications say, I have no faith in that system.

I continue to think this is the wrong perspective. At least the Spanish courts are involved in the process. That's more than can be said for many countries. In England are there any serious criminal proceedings against athletes for doping? I suppose not, because there is no need, Cavendish and the like are all completely clean. In Spain the legal protections of the accused have still not been debased and adulterated to nonexistence as they have been over the years in the US and other similar countries, and the police can't just collect (or plant) evidence as they like - and private parties - e.g. sporting authorities - have even less leeway. This is not to say that political pressure and outright corruption don't also have a role - they probably do - Spain's biggest banker owes the government 200 million in back taxes - but in fact there is a sector of Spanish officialdom that is trying to do something. When I look at the US, for example, I see a much larger country with at least as big a doping problem and a lot fewer legal actions related to it. The US's legal regime is much, much more favorable to the state as accuser than is the Spanish legal regime - this is why the US, with 5% of the world's populations has 1/4 of its prisoners - and why prison terms in Spain seem tiny to someone from the US - but as a paradigm it also plants problems for the policing of doping.

I see the problem in part as the reliance on law enforcement to police doping. The courts and police necessarily are held to higher standards in relation to collection of evidence and burden of proof - you can't imprison someone based on what everyone knows. A private sporting body, on the other hand, could certainly be structured to be able to suspend its athletes for doing what everyone knows - the same way a football player can be suspended if he calls Sepp Blatter an idiot - what are needed are mechanisms for suspension and punishment that don't go straight to the courtroom - although courts will always enter when someone contests a punishment.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

A matter of precedence of the Courts.

As a resident of Spain, not a citizen, with no understanding of Spanish Legal systems (read as Disclaimer...), I back up what Paco P has written above.

There are two separate systems at play here (Sporting and Civil), and the processes of the Sporting Court appear (from my reading) to have not been in full compliance with the process required for guilt to be established.
As is a normal right of most European citizens, Heras can (and has, successfully) appeal to a Court that is deemed to have jurisdiction, that his Civil rights have been infringed through the failure of the Sporting Courts to follow the due process for a finding of guilt.

I also see that there is the matter of Precedence for the various conflicting Courts (Sporting, i.e. RFEC & High Council for Sport) and Civil Courts, which has Precedence?
It is normally clearly stated in the relevant legislation that creates the Court.

It makes no reference to Heras' actual guilt or innocence, simply that the Sporting Court(s) have failed to follow their own processes, and as such a finding of guilt is not legally binding.

My personal view of Heras being a doper - hell, yes!! (USPS, Liberty Seguros, etc, etc....)

 

[L'arriviste]

The Valladolid appeal judgement records that in respect of its anti-doping activities, the RFEC operates in a public function, therefore its decisions are open to the court's scrutiny. This contrasts with the opinion of the court of first instance, which considered the opposite.

A court cannot scrutinise a decision made by a private body if there is no other infringement of the laws of the land. So until now, the RFEC has acted unchallenged in a private context. This is why the appeal to the Supreme Court that we can now expect could turn out to be very important. The implications of the Heras case could be broader within Spain.

Heras' guilt has nothing to do with this decision, nor do human rights. At this point, the field of argument is very narrow indeed. This is the thing that many people find strange about civil appeals - whilst these judgements do have an eventual effect on the original case, the original facts and questions of guilt are no longer the point.

 

[snackattack]

¿the turning point

.
Roberto Heras has just been declared the winner of the Vuelta 2005 by the Spanish supreme court.


Dennis Menchov has to cede and surrender his victory awarded from behind the green table.


As known the 2 year ban handed to Heras in 2006 was overturned in 2011 and this is the first effect of it.

That means some big money has to change hands

(AFP)

 

[snackattack]

http:/europapress.es/deportes/noticia-ciclismo-supremo-confirma-anulacion-sancion-dopaje-heras-vuelta-2005.html

 

[ChrisE]

Hopefully he cas start suing the **** out of some people and organizations.

 

[Berzin]

Heras got off on a technicality, but that doesn't mean he wasn't doping.

He was. It's regrettable that his career basically came to an end after his 2005 doping positive at the Vuelta. The two-year ban, which any rider would have to serve for the same malfeasance, morphed into a lifetime ban from the pro peloton. But this does not make him innocent.

I recall an interview where Lance Armstrong was asked about Heras after he left US Postal. Armstrong, in his inimical style, couldn't bare to say anything nice about him and how he helped him win a couple of Tours.

He went on some tirade about Heras never fully committing to the team and what it took to take his talents to the next level (to further Armstrong's ambitions, of course-not Roberto's) or something to that effect.

Given what's transpired, I now recall these comments as the apotheosis of cynicism on the part of Armstrong, because he never did clarify what those methods for achieving maximum excellence were.

Now we know.

 

[DirtyWorks]

UCI, WADA and all the sport governing bodies need to think seriously about this and make sure that their procedures and their actions can't be questioned by civilian courts.

They do already.

It works like every other supra-national/multinational corporation. Each country does their level best to apply the multinational's practices inside the country. For example, the UCI has no authority inside the U.S. USA Cycling is the UCI's in-country proxy for the UCI.

He got off on a technicality. Not great, but not bad as long as Spanish anti-doping tightens up their processes as a result.

 

[ElChingon]

Does seem a bit pointless at this point in time, almost 8 years later and they finally re-decide who the winner was... was anyone really shouting out that Menchov was the rightful winner? Its another classic failure altogether on doping and its lack of enforcement.

 

[Velodude]

They do already.

It works like every other supra-national/multinational corporation. Each country does their level best to apply the multinational's practices inside the country. For example, the UCI has no authority inside the U.S. USA Cycling is the UCI's in-country proxy for the UCI.

He got off on a technicality. Not great, but not bad as long as Spanish anti-doping tightens up their processes as a result.

Like saying OJ Simpson's not guilty verdict proved he was innocent.

 

[Le breton]

..............
Heras' guilt has nothing to do with this decision, nor do human rights. At this point, the field of argument is very narrow indeed. This is the thing that many people find strange about civil appeals - whilst these judgements do have an eventual effect on the original case, the original facts and questions of guilt are no longer the point.

Hello L'arriviste,
could you point to a paper or something else detailing the facts?

Was sample A correctly analyzed, which lab?

Is the dispute only about sample B?

Was the identity of the owner of the sample already known by the lab technicians when processing sample A or only for sample B?

And so on.

I am asking you as you are so dedicated in your pursuit of facts in those doping affairs.

And thanks for that.

 

[Viskovitz]

Hello L'arriviste,
could you point to a paper or something else detailing the facts?

Was sample A correctly analyzed, which lab?

Is the dispute only about sample B?

Was the identity of the owner of the sample already known by the lab technicians when processing sample A or only for sample B?

And so on.

I am asking you as you are so dedicated in your pursuit of facts in those doping affairs.

And thanks for that.

Here's an article that summarize the original sentence - http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2011/06/24/ciclismo/1308912735.html#comentarios

This is what happened:

1.- The samples should have been delivered in 24h to the lab, and refrigerated. They were delivered in 40 h without refrigeration.

2.- The samples were delivered to the lab by an unknown person or company.

3.- The samples came with some unnecessary medical information that easily allowed them to be identified as belonging to Heras, so no sample was anonymous.

4.- Both samples, A and B, where analyzed by the same technicians, against the rules.

5.- The B sample was analyzed 2 times because the first result wasn't valid. That was against the rules too.

6.- The Federation didn't provide the qualifications or experience of the technicians that made the analysis

7.- At the time the lab didn't have the ISO certification needed to do what they did.

Edit: also, the Federation had to give Heras detailed information of the analysis of the B sample so Heras could defend himself, but they didn't, even when Heras asked about it.

 

[zigmeister]

Wow, if that is accurate information, that is pathetic. The dude probably was a big doper, but this is where the process has serious flaws.

Here's an article that summarize the original sentence - http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2011/06/24/ciclismo/1308912735.html#comentarios

This is what happened:

1.- The samples should have been delivered in 24h to the lab, and refrigerated. They were delivered in 40 h without refrigeration.

2.- The samples were delivered to the lab by and unknown person or company.

3.- The samples came them some unnecessary medical information that easily allowed them to be identified as belonging to Heras, so no sample was anonymous.

4.- Both samples, A and B, where analyzed by the same technicians, against the rules.

5.- The B sample was analyzed 2 times because the first result wasn't valid. That was against the norm.

6.- The Federation didn't provide the qualifications or experience of the technicians that made the analysis

7.- At the time the lab didn't have the ISO certification needed to do what they did.

 

[Carols]

Wow, if that is accurate information, that is pathetic. The dude probably was a big doper, but this is where the process has serious flaws.

Have to agree. Yes he most likely doped, but the process has to be handled correctly!! The doping authorities have to follow their own processes to the letter for due process.

 

[Cookster15]

Unbelievable, what a farce our sport has become. Races are decided then over turned 7 years later based upon legal technicalities and incompetent procedures. A (bad) joke.

As far as Heras is concerned, agree with what Berzin said.

 

[Le breton]

Here's an article that summarize the original sentence - http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2011/06/24/ciclismo/1308912735.html#comentarios

This is what happened:

1.- The samples should have been delivered in 24h to the lab, and refrigerated. They were delivered in 40 h without refrigeration.

2.- The samples were delivered to the lab by an unknown person or company.

3.- The samples came with some unnecessary medical information that easily allowed them to be identified as belonging to Heras, so no sample was anonymous.

4.- Both samples, A and B, where analyzed by the same technicians, against the rules.

5.- The B sample was analyzed 2 times because the first result wasn't valid. That was against the rules too.

6.- The Federation didn't provide the qualifications or experience of the technicians that made the analysis

7.- At the time the lab didn't have the ISO certification needed to do what they did.

Edit: also, the Federation had to give Heras detailed information of the analysis of the B sample so Heras could defend himself, but they didn't, even when Heras asked about it.

Thanks a lot Viskovitz for taking the time to detail all this.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Madrid have now lost their accreditation for 3 months.

 

[Ferminal]

Eh, further for samples to travel...

 

[rata de sentina]

Unfortunately Spain protects it´s own irrespective of national reputation. Another blot on the nations reputation as a blatant cheater is either ignored or actively protected. If Heras had a genuine case it should have gone to CAS otherwise it´s just mutual backslapping and other back room shenanigans.

 

[hrotha]

Unfortunately Spain protects it´s own irrespective of national reputation. Another blot on the nations reputation as a blatant cheater is either ignored or actively protected. If Heras had a genuine case it should have gone to CAS otherwise it´s just mutual backslapping and other back room shenanigans.

That "Spain protecting their dopers" narrative has a big problem in this case: Heras was caught, suspended, sanctioned and stripped by the Spanish, and when the court undid their work, they appealed.

 

[Cookster15]

Heras was caught, suspended, sanctioned and stripped by the Spanish

And yet he still says he never stopped feeling like the winner of the Vuelta.

Go away Heras, just go away.

 

[ChrisE]

And yet he still says he never stopped feeling like the winner of the Vuelta.

Go away Heras, just go away.

Yeah, we all know Menchov was the rightful winner.

Assuming the list provided by Viskovitz's translation is true, then this is a travesty. Not because we don't all believe Heras doped, but such poor handling of such a case deserves to be tossed out. The protocol should be beyond reproach, and this was nothing of the sort. Rules and protocol are in place to protect the innocent, and some wise man once said it is better to let 10 guilty go instead of convicting one innocent.

If any of the scorched earth crowd in here was involved in a sport or anything where such poor care is taken to ensure results and fairness to those accused, they would screech just as loud in the opposite manner. Hypocrisy is the foremost trait in the clinic.