Horner to Skip Tour de Suisse -- Take 2

[Merckx index]

Loaded with nitrate.

This is a good point. Nitrates are used to preserve meat. The nitrates themselves are not the problem, it's the nitrosamines formed from them. This formation is inhibited by Vitamin C, which is where a diet rich in fruits and vegetables helps-- a source of nitrates in a form that reduces nitrosamines.

I guess that if you are going to drink a lot of beetroot juice, you want to take a lot of vitamin C, too. It should maximize the amount of NO produced and minimize the amount of nitrosamines. But this is also another reason to be concerned about chronic intake of large amounts of beetroot juice.

 

[mastersracer]

This is a good point. Nitrates are used to preserve meat. The nitrates themselves are not the problem, it's the nitrosamines formed from them. This formation is inhibited by Vitamin C, which is where a diet rich in fruits and vegetables helps-- a source of nitrates in a form that reduces nitrosamines.

I guess that if you are going to drink a lot of beetroot juice, you want to take a lot of vitamin C, too. It should maximize the amount of NO produced and minimize the amount of nitrosamines. But this is also another reason to be concerned about chronic intake of large amounts of beetroot juice.

The Lansley et al study used an acute supplementation (single 500ml serving) - is there any work to show that there's an additional benefit from chronic supplementation? Any reason why the studies use beetroot juice and not something like inorganic nitrate (KNO3 is sometimes used in hypertension lit). Beetroot juice, at least in the US, is expensive (to say nothing of the fact that it makes you think hematuria every time you pee).

 

[Rip:30]

This is a good point. Nitrates are used to preserve meat. The nitrates themselves are not the problem, it's the nitrosamines formed from them. This formation is inhibited by Vitamin C, which is where a diet rich in fruits and vegetables helps-- a source of nitrates in a form that reduces nitrosamines.

I guess that if you are going to drink a lot of beetroot juice, you want to take a lot of vitamin C, too. It should maximize the amount of NO produced and minimize the amount of nitrosamines. But this is also another reason to be concerned about chronic intake of large amounts of beetroot juice.

Yea that's why I wash my bacon down with a nice glass of OJ in the morning.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Yea that's why I wash my bacon down with a nice glass of OJ in the morning.

Orange juice is just a preemie mimosa.

 

[Escarabajo]

Redneck Horner rode the Amgen Tour of California.
Alberto Bang Bang rode the Giro.
These two strong climbers now will train in private until the Tour.

Alberto will go into seclusion for who knows what...
Allergies?

Make more sense for Horner to not push too hard now.
He will be a worker bee for Jani or Levi?
And he has a tendancy to crash sometimes.
Why risk it.
Just keep his fitness on simmer.
The Tour is almost HERE!

And BTW, RadioShack has the Team Title to defend.
I know haha BFD - who cares about the "Team Title"

Actually, that is part of what is WRONG with Pro Cycling.
Too much focus on the individual rider.

Other REAL sports you root for the TEAM first, and then the players

Yeah, right like that is going to happen.

 

[Granville57]

It seems his reasoning should be easy to prove: Did he really go from 150 down to 140 pounds? If so, he should do what he's doing. 4 kilos is HUGE! I honestly find it hard to believe that he's been racing his entire career and been 10 pounds off his prime. Can anybody find some comparative pictures? I don't see how he ever could have won a pro race being 10 pounds overweight.

Here are a few for comparison.
Photos can be tricky for this type of thing, but a 10 lbs (4.5 kg) difference certainly doesn't look to be out of the question.

2005

2006

2011

He does seem to be carrying a bit more weight in this one though. ;-)

 

[D-Queued]

Here are a few for comparison.
Photos can be tricky for this type of thing, but a 10 lbs (4.5 kg) difference certainly doesn't look to be out of the question.

...
2011

...

I think I read somewhere that clen can help you get cut... Looks to be well under healthy levels of fat content.

Dave.

 

[Granville57]

2011

I think I read somewhere that clen can help you get cut... Looks to be well under healthy levels of fat content.

There's an easy solution to that though:

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

There's an easy solution to that though:

In that first picture, he looks as though he either just ate that enormous pastry or he's 5 months along.

Those Trek bikes are an insult to wheeled transportation.

 

[ricara]

In that first picture, he looks as though he either just ate that enormous pastry or he's 5 months along.

Nobody was saying anything, so I was starting to wonder if it was just me. Thanks for confirming that I'm not completely blind yet.

Those Trek bikes are an insult to wheeled transportation.

You have to remember that it's all about the cash. With these modern plastic bike frames, the molds are expensive (even when you are making them in China -- it's hard to believe that people are lining up to pay thousands of dollars for Chinese bicycles. Whatever happened to the days of Ugo de Rosa or Cino Cinelli or Ernesto Colnago?) So they invented this concept of sloping top tubes as a way of cutting down your inventory. Now instead of stocking 49, 51, 53, 55, 57, 59, 61, and (sometimes) 63 cm framesets in all different colors, it is just Small, Medium, and Large in one color. Make up the difference with the seat post and the stem. Much more profit that way...

 

[Granville57]

In that first picture, he looks as though he either just ate that enormous pastry or he's 5 months along.

I too was wondering about that paunch on someone so lean.
It seems to be a Shack thing.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Chris has a great rep in SoCal. Will talk with anybody about bike racing all day long. Hard to find anyone that will say a bad word about him.

Regardless of whatever his program may, or may not, be he has always had a huge engine. He is by far the most talented American stage race of the last 20 years. If he had better guidence and made better personal decisions his career would have been much different. He has always had issues with his weight and ablity to adapt to the Euro way.

+1

A reminder about the importance of Watts per Kilogram is key to this discussion.
150lb = 68 Kilos
140lb = 63 Kilos (about an 8% difference in weight)

Pick some proximal average Watts for a Pro and make some ratios.
400Watts/68 Kilos = 5.88
400Watts/63 Kilos = 6.34

The Watts/Kilo ratio improves by something like a 7% improvement when the difference between first and second Watts/Kilo ratios for mountain stage winner is less than 1%. He just squeezed a HUGE advantage out of his body and still manages to keep the power up.

Now, if he were heading to Tenrife to train, and then arrived to time trial at the TdF like Cancellara, that would be damning. Riding for Wonderboy is absolutely damning.

I will not be surprised if the news broke that Horner was on the Wonderboy doping program. Not for a second. But what he's saying about gains as a result of diet is legitimate.

 

[Kodiak]

I too was wondering about that paunch on someone so lean.
It seems to be a Shack thing.

I'm thinking it must be an old age thing. but then again there aren't as many geriatrics on a single team anywhere else that I can think of.

 

[veganrob]

It's called a "roid" belly. Steroids. If you take a look at some pro bodybuilders from competitions, they will be extremely cut, 2% body fat, but they will struggle to keep their stomach in. Way too much steroids do that.
Or how about starving children in some third world countries. Emaciated except for the belly.
Horner looks like an anorexic, bodybuilder with roid belly. Pro cyclists are all lean but Horner does not look healthy at all.

 

[blackcat]

hgh gut colloqially known as

 

[python]

+1

A reminder about the importance of Watts per Kilogram is key to this <snip> 7% improvement

regardless of horner, the improvements in w/kg due to loss of unnecessary body weight go far beyond the straight proportions you've shown, though, i recon, you may have deliberately simplified.

some time ago i've posted that on the basis of hundreds of personal records,
i've seen my own improvements in w/kg around 1.5% for each 1% of bw lost.

certainly, there is a minimum weight red line crossing which caused sluggishness, loss of snap, poor recovery and eventually immune response failure (colds and what not).

i'm not sure of the exact physio-biochemical reasons for the improvements...i suspect improved thermodynamic efficiency due to reduced load on maintenance of the unnecessary biomass i parted with

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

It's called a "roid" belly. Steroids. If you take a look at some pro bodybuilders from competitions, they will be extremely cut, 2% body fat, but they will struggle to keep their stomach in. Way too much steroids do that.
Or how about starving children in some third world countries. Emaciated except for the belly.
Horner looks like an anorexic, bodybuilder with roid belly. Pro cyclists are all lean but Horner does not look healthy at all.

Despite its name bodybuilders generally believe it is caused by insulin use. It builds visceral fat around the internal organs in the abdomen, causing the belly to jut out despite having extremely low levels of subcutaneous fat.

 

[veganrob]

Despite its name bodybuilders generally believe it is caused by insulin use. It builds visceral fat around the internal organs in the abdomen, causing the belly to jut out despite having extremely low levels of subcutaneous fat.

Actually I think it is blackcat that is correct. It is most commonly referred to as roid gut, but is caused by HGH

 

[Ferminal]

Despite its name bodybuilders generally believe it is caused by insulin use. It builds visceral fat around the internal organs in the abdomen, causing the belly to jut out despite having extremely low levels of subcutaneous fat.

Would the IGF-1 from HGH use cause a similar effect?

 

[Je ne sais quoi]

Actually I think it is blackcat that is correct. It is most commonly referred to as roid gut, but is caused by HGH

A "Shack Pack", as compared with a six pack.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Actually I think it is blackcat that is correct. It is most commonly referred to as roid gut, but is caused by HGH

It is called by several names. Initially people thought that it was caused by HGH because body builders with distended stomachs began to be seen around the time that HGH use became common. The theory was that HGH cause growth of the intestines because the intestines have a lot of IGF-1 receptors. This was at the beginning of the age of mass monsters, which looked like freaks compared to the more classical physique of Schwarzenegger. Insulin abuse began at the same time. Now a lot BBers agree that HGH gut comes from insulin causing visceral fat accumulation around the internal organs and behind the abdominal wall, but there is a lot of debat about it. Some say HGH causes it. Some say slin causes it. Some say a combination of the two causes it. But it is not permanent. There are bodybuilders that had terrible HGH gut but no longer have it, which makes me think that the fat explanation is the most probable one.

 

[filipo]

Chris has a great rep in SoCal. Will talk with anybody about bike racing all day long. Hard to find anyone that will say a bad word about him.

Try Matt DeCanio.

 

[blackcat]

or hgh has stimulated growth in the abdomen

 

[BillytheKid]

or hgh has stimulated growth in the abdomen

Is not guilt by association a fallacious argument? This whole thread is full of it.

Maybe I should start a new thread: "What's Wiggins' real weight loss secret."
Gee, he looks really thin, but we we would rather throw a stone at Horner.

Of course this is said just to prove a point. To compare Wiggins and Horner, they both have dropped weight to improve their climbing. So do you then start a rumor mill about Wiggins? That would be unfounded.

I am dubious that PED problems still are not a problem through out all of sport. The Shack, Horner included are under close watch. If the former Postal team once had any special favour, that's long gone. The USADA has been very active of late.

Horner was in the 0 group in that leaked UCI doc.

Nothing but muck here.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

or hgh has stimulated growth in the abdomen

If that was true then it would be permanent. Lots of cardio gets rid of HGH gut.