Horner to Skip Tour de Suisse -- Take 2

[Fatclimber]

It seems his reasoning should be easy to prove: Did he really go from 150 down to 140 pounds? If so, he should do what he's doing. 4 kilos is HUGE! I honestly find it hard to believe that he's been racing his entire career and been 10 pounds off his prime. Can anybody find some comparative pictures? I don't see how he ever could have won a pro race being 10 pounds overweight.

 

[Escarabajo]

An equally plausible alternative to the "late-career doping success" account is that some riders are now finding more success against a less-doped peloton. Some riders are going backwards as a result of likely riding cleaner (e.g., Hincapie and Zabriskie) while others may be doing better. For the record, Horner was in the 0 level on the UCI secret suspicion list. I doubt those making the standard Armstrong references have anything more specific to support their claims...

You make a good point.

Just for being in the Radio Shack team his performance is going to be viewed with skepticism. But you never know you can always have a Christophe Bassons in a team.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

For the record, Horner was in the 0 level on the UCI secret suspicion list. I doubt those making the standard Armstrong references have anything more specific to support their claims...

All a zero means is the the rider took his blood out in December instead of June.

 

[fast_twitch]

But...

Horner was a zero on the leaked UCI doping list. A perusal of the list looks like they have a pretty good idea of who's doing the juice.

I know that many pros dope, heck I have seen Cat 3's here in the States dope, but I think Horner is one of the cleaner riders. Perhaps he just wants to skip TDS to prevent fatigue.

FT

 

[D-Queued]

Horner was a zero on the leaked UCI doping list. A perusal of the list looks like they have a pretty good idea of who's doing the juice.

I know that many pros dope, heck I have seen Cat 3's here in the States dope, but I think Horner is one of the cleaner riders. Perhaps he just wants to skip TDS to prevent fatigue.

FT

He never dopes on the sabbath.

Dave.

 

[Red Lobster]

I honestly find it hard to believe that he's been racing his entire career and been 10 pounds off his prime. Can anybody find some comparative pictures? I don't see how he ever could have won a pro race being 10 pounds overweight.

Ignore the belly breathing and compare arms and legs. Probably 10 pounds easy. Horner has always been legendary for eating whatever, whenever. I think when he was on Lotto he ****ed off management by eating McDonalds during the Tour. That said, little question in my mind that Horner is taking advantage of all the advantages RS and the hog can provide to him.

Lotto 2006, Vuelta(?):
EDIT: For some reason I can't post that pic correctly, here's the link: http://www.chrishornerracing.com/picture/tos%202006%202.jpg?pictureId=4143807

California 2011:

 

[Hawkwood]

A quick search on Tesco's UK online website brought up 26 items with beetroot in them, including `Beet it Beetroot Juice'. I suppose it's possible that the Swiss might not be so into beetroot.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

I googled it in German and came up with a lot of hits. What interested me were the flurry of articles form 2008 and 2009 about how it can improved athletic performance and endurance..... so it's not really anything new.

Susan

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Doping apart but ...

Kloden has had good results in the Tour whilst not riding Dauphine or TdS (2004 and 2006) so it is possible. In fact in 2006 he barely raced at all

 

[MacRoadie]

So far, 5 out of 5 studies from 3 different labs have shown a positive effect on performance. That is on top of probably >100 studies showing other physiological effects, e.g., a reduction in blood pressure.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the "beet juice thing" led to another Nobel prize related to the NO pathway...

If this is true, does it not beg the question as to why we're not hearing other cyclists/elite endurance athletes and trainers propounding the use of beetroot juice?

If it is as well-reserached and supported as you suggest (5 out of 5 studies, >100 studies, etc) then it seems odd that Horner would be the only cyclist we've heard using the stuff (especially in light of it's purported "positive effect on performance"). You could get 100 guys eating dirt and another 200 web sites selling the stuff with just a single study suggesting any "positive effects" on performance.

At first blush, one might suggest that Horner is simply ahead of the curve, but that theory is contradicted by your representation that the stuff has been well-studied and published. One might also suggest that others use it, but are keeping their cards close to the vest, but that also fails the litmus test in light of Horner's rather vocal proponency. In other words the cat, if it ever in fact was in the bag, is now most certainly out. Not one "oh yeah, i use it too" or "well, we've been using it for months/years now". Not one.

At the very least, in today's professional cycling environment, any product or diet that is as well documented as you suggest this one is, would unfortuntely (and at the very least) become a prime explanation for sudden or significasnt increases in performance and endurance. With guys using every excuse from altitude training, to higher cadence, to rice cakes, a product or diet with over 100 studies singing its praises would surely rise to the top of everyone's excuse list.

The fact that's it's been around for a number of years, yet hasn't popped up on the cycling radar before now, just adds to the enigma.

 

[Benotti69]

Doping apart but ...

Kloden has had good results in the Tour whilst not riding Dauphine or TdS (2004 and 2006) so it is possible. In fact in 2006 he barely raced at all

too busy out harvesting beetroot for Bruyneel!

 

[Merckx index]

We discussed beetroot juice on another thread about three weeks ago. A couple of studies were dissected. There did seem to be some effect on performance, but a major problem was that there was very large variation, IOW, some riders showed little or no effect.

A problem with studies like this is the nature of the control group. If one uses a different group of riders, then one can always argue they aren’t well matched for performance. If one uses the same group of riders—i.e., test them once without the juice, then a second time with the juice—there is a question of whether they rode faster the second time because they were more familiar with the route/distance, different weather conditions, etc. IIRC, the studies also did not control for other substances in the juice that might have provided purely nutrient/caloric benefits, i.e., I believe the control was just water or electrolyte solution.

Here is my post from that thread:

The statistics in the papers they cite look a little suspicious to me. In the abstract of the first paper referenced, they report that beetroot juice (BR) “reduced systolic blood pressure (129 ± 9 vs. 124 ± 10 mmHg, P < 0.01).” I don't have access to the whole article, so couldn't evaluate their statistics for certain, but I find it hard to believe that a 4% decrease with a larger SD is significant at the 0.01 level. Likewise for reduction of oxygen cost of moderate intensity running (2.26 ± 0.27 and 2.10 ± 0.28 l/min), severe intensity running (3.77 ± 0.57 and 3.50 ± 0.62 l/min), and time to exhaustion of severe intensity running (7.6 ± 1.5 and 8.7 ± 1.8 min). They claim all these differences are significant at the 0.01 level, yet for comparison, the Qmax difference (0.93 ± 0.05 and 1.05 ± 0.22 mM/s), which is about as large with comparable SDs, is not significant. Doesn’t add up.

Same thing for the second paper cited, a time trial study. BR significantly increased mean PO during the 4-km (PL = 279 ± 51 vs BR = 292 ± 44 W, P < 0.05) and 16.1-km TT (PL = 233 ± 43 vs BR = 247 ± 44 W, P < 0.01). The statistics look flawed to me.

To be fair, even a very small increase in power output would be helpful to a racer, and there wouldn’t seem to be anything to lose by drinking this stuff. The difference in TT times they report would correspond to about a minute in a 40 min. race, obviously a significant advantage. The problem is that the high variability suggests that the effect is hardly uniform, that different riders would experience greatly different benefits, probably in some cases little or not benefit at all.

As far as Horner withdrawing from the TdS because of dietary concerns, that sounds ludicrous to me. One can eat well almost anywhere in the world--and most obviously in Europe--if one has access to simple cooking facilities. Maybe after all his years at McDo he's not familiar with farmers' markets, let alone any supermarket.

 

[mastersracer]

We discussed beetroot juice on another thread about a month ago. A couple of studies were dissected. There did seem to be some effect on performance, but a major problem was that there was very large variation, IOW, some riders showed little or no effect.

A problem with studies like this is the nature of the control group. If one uses a different group of riders, then one can always argue they aren’t well matched for performance. If one uses the same group of riders—i.e., test them once without the juice, then a second time with the juice—there is a question of whether they rode faster the second time because they were more familiar with the route/distance, different weather conditions, etc. IIRC, the studies also did not control for other substances in the juice that might have provided purely nutrient/caloric benefits, i.e., I believe the control was just water or electrolyte solution.

As far as Horner withdrawing from the TdS because of dietary concerns, that sounds ludicrous to me. One can eat well almost anywhere in the world--and most obviously in Europe--if one has access to simple cooking facilities. Maybe after all his years at McDo he's not familiar with farmers' markets, let alone any supermarket.

There's a recent study using nitrate-depleted beetroot juice (filtered through an ion exchange resin). Testing was done in the lab so route wasn't an issue. Nitrate supplementation has been well studied in terms of hypertension as well.


Jones's group: Acute Dietary Nitrate Supplementation Improves Cycling Time Trial Performanc

 

[Fatclimber]

As far as Horner withdrawing from the TdS because of dietary concerns, that sounds ludicrous to me. One can eat well almost anywhere in the world--and most obviously in Europe--if one has access to simple cooking facilities. Maybe after all his years at McDo he's not familiar with farmers' markets, let alone any supermarket.

Horner's explanation is along the lines of "lack of discipline" while preparing his own food, keeps snitching before the food is ready and ends up eating too much. It may sound goofy for a pro cyclist to have problems of this nature, but most people who have participated in dieting can relate. He's on the extreme, elite end of it too.

Of course I won't vouch for his improvement being totally due to losing weight due to many factors, but if you compare the picture on the previous page to some older ones, man them arms are skinny!

Weight loss obviously improves climbing, but how do recent TT results compare to other years? If improvements have been made here, then there's reason for suspicion...

 

[acoggan]

We discussed beetroot juice on another thread about three weeks ago. A couple of studies were dissected. There did seem to be some effect on performance, but a major problem was that there was very large variation, IOW, some riders showed little or no effect.

In this and your post that you quoted, you seem to be confusing intra-individual variability with inter-individual variability. Studies providing the mean +/- SD for a group only tell you about the latter, not the former. To get a real handle on the effect size (i.e., how large the difference is in comparison to the variation), as well as whether there are responders and non-responders, you need data for individual subjects.

Fortunately, two recent studies have provided such data, at least in graphical form. Here are the numbers I plucked out of them a few weeks ago to do some statistical power calculations:

Bailey et al.
Time to fatigue (s)
Subject # Placebo Beet root juice Delta Delta %
1 417 552 135 32%
2 459 535 76 17%
3 484 552 68 14%
4 510 577 68 13%
5 569 451 -118 -21%
6 704 907 203 29%
7 704 1000 296 42%
8 806 839 34 4%

average 582 677 95 16%
SD 140 206 122 19%

Kenjale et al.
Time to fatigue (s)
Subject # Placebo Beet root juice Delta Delta %
1 169 188 19 11%
2 206 263 56 27%
3 281 375 94 33%
4 375 450 75 20%
5 413 506 94 23%
6 694 788 94 14%
7 713 656 -56 -8%
8 750 900 150 20%

average 450 516 66 18%
SD 237 250 62 12%

Note that these were 1) double-blind, placebo-controlled, laboratory-based studies, 2) in each study, 7 out of 8 individuals showed a positive response (although subject 8 in Bailey et al. improved by only 4%), and 3) while these are time-to-fatigue tests, the effect size is just as large for TT-type efforts.

 

[acoggan]

A list of relevant studies, for those who might be interested:


1. Lansley KE, Winyard PG, Bailey SJ, Vanhatalo A, Wilkerson DP, Blackwell JR, Gilchrist M, Benjamin N, Jones AM. Acute dietary nitrate supplementation improves cycling time trial performance. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2011 Jun;43(6):1125-31.

2. Kenjale AA, Ham KL, Stabler T, Robbins JL, Johnson JL, Vanbruggen M, Privette G, Yim E, Kraus WE, Allen JD. Dietary Nitrate Supplementation Enhances Exercise Performance in Peripheral Arterial Disease. J Appl Physiol. 2011 Mar 31. [Epub ahead of print]

3. Bescós R, Rodríguez FA, Iglesias X, Ferrer MD, Iborra E, Pons A. Acute Administration of Inorganic Nitrate Reduces VO2peak in EnduranceAthletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2011 Mar 10. [Epub ahead of print]

4. Larsen FJ, Schiffer TA, Borniquel S, Sahlin K, Ekblom B, Lundberg JO, Weitzberg E. Dietary inorganic nitrate improves mitochondrial efficiency in humans. Cell Metab. 2011 Feb 2;13(2):149-59.

5. Lansley KE, Winyard PG, Fulford J, Vanhatalo A, Bailey SJ, Blackwell JR, DiMenna FJ, Gilchrist M, Benjamin N, Jones AM. Dietary nitrate supplementation reduces the O2 cost of walking and running: a placebo-controlled study. J Appl Physiol. 2011 Mar;110(3):591-600.

6. Bailey SJ, Winyard PG, Vanhatalo A, Blackwell JR, DiMenna FJ, Wilkerson DP, Jones AM. Acute L-arginine supplementation reduces the O2 cost of moderate-intensity exercise and enhances high-intensity exercise tolerance. J Appl Physiol. 2010 Nov;109(5):1394-403.

7. Vanhatalo A, Bailey SJ, Blackwell JR, DiMenna FJ, Pavey TG, Wilkerson DP, Benjamin N, Winyard PG, Jones AM. Acute and chronic effects of dietary nitrate supplementation on blood pressure and the physiological responses to moderate-intensity and incremental exercise. Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2010 Oct;299(4):R1121-31.

8. Bailey SJ, Fulford J, Vanhatalo A, Winyard PG, Blackwell JR, DiMenna FJ, Wilkerson DP, Benjamin N, Jones AM. Dietary nitrate supplementation enhances muscle contractile efficiency during knee-extensor exercise in humans. J Appl Physiol. 2010 Jul;109(1):135-48.

9. Larsen FJ, Weitzberg E, Lundberg JO, Ekblom B. Dietary nitrate reduces maximal oxygen consumption while maintaining work performance in maximal exercise. Free Radic Biol Med. 2010 Jan 15;48(2):342-7.

10. Bailey SJ, Winyard P, Vanhatalo A, Blackwell JR, Dimenna FJ, Wilkerson DP, Tarr J, Benjamin N, Jones AM. Dietary nitrate supplementation reduces the O2 cost of low-intensity exercise and enhances tolerance to high-intensity exercise in humans. J Appl Physiol. 2009 Oct;107(4):1144-55.

11. Larsen FJ, Weitzberg E, Lundberg JO, Ekblom B. Effects of dietary nitrate on oxygen cost during exercise. Acta Physiol (Oxf). 2007 Sep;191(1):59-66.

 

[Merckx index]

In this and your post that you quoted, you seem to be confusing intra-individual variability with inter-individual variability. Studies providing the mean +/- SD for a group only tell you about the latter, not the former.

Yes, and that is exactly what I said in my post. Saying that some riders showed little or no effect is a way of referring to variability among riders, rather than within the same rider. And the data you present in the rest of your post (which are also about inter-, not intra- individual variability) bear this out. Though in this case most of the riders do show a substantial effect, clearly the variability among them is very great, hence the large SD. Even throwing out the very low or negative values, riders in both studies differ by as much as three-fold.

Moreover, the average effects you show on time to exhaustion here (16-18%), are much larger than the effects on other physiological parameters in the studies I was commenting on: 4% for systolic pressure; 9% for oxygen cost; 4-6% for PO. Given the comparably large SDs in those studies, I strongly suspect that more individuals in those studies exhibit low or no effects. Time to exhaustion is frequently substantially increased in other studies, but I note that in the list of references you cite (appreciate that!), one study reported no change in time to exhaustion, while another reported a relatively small change, about 7.5%. VO2 max is frequently decreased, though with no accompanying decrease in performance.

I'm not saying this is isn't interesting work, but the large variability--in different labs, apparently, as well as different individuals--makes it hard to gauge just how beneficial this could be to riders. I found it interesting that one study suggested the effects could be accomplished simply by a diet rich in certain vegetables. Could it be that at least some of the large variation found in tests of athletes is that some of them, like Horner, are junk food addicts who aren't getting enough nitrate in their diet? So when they load up on beetroot juice, they get a big effect. Whereas the low responders might be at least partly explained by the fact that they are already getting substantial amounts of nitrate in their diet. Maybe there are data in some of these papers that address this possibility, I don't know.

Finally, like any PED (if one wants to call it that), nitrate may have detrimental effects. A primary function of nitric oxide is as a neurotransmitter to cause vasodilation (it’s the key molecule involved in the action of Viagra, e.g., and also nitroglycerin), and there is accumulating evidence that it may have other effects relevant to athletic performance. But in excess levels it may be associated with inflammation and even carcinogenesis, and there are also studies linking it to muscular degeneration. We really don’t know what the long-term effects might be of loading oneself up with nitraites may be. Caveat emptor.

 

[Polish]

Redneck Horner rode the Amgen Tour of California.
Alberto Bang Bang rode the Giro.
These two strong climbers now will train in private until the Tour.

Alberto will go into seclusion for who knows what...
Allergies?

Make more sense for Horner to not push too hard now.
He will be a worker bee for Jani or Levi?
And he has a tendancy to crash sometimes.
Why risk it.
Just keep his fitness on simmer.
The Tour is almost HERE!

And BTW, RadioShack has the Team Title to defend.
I know haha BFD - who cares about the "Team Title"

Actually, that is part of what is WRONG with Pro Cycling.
Too much focus on the individual rider.

Other REAL sports you root for the TEAM first, and then the players

 

[BillytheKid]

That is my understanding of the law (in the US at least). I would hope that the people that are reading this forum would realize that no professional cyclist would ever say what I posted and instantly realize that it was meant to be parody.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Libel discussion aside.

I think Horner's logic makes some sense.

True: Long time endurance athletes can come to form faster.

True: Power-to-weight ratio absolutely can make you a better climber. (some people fuss about bike weight grams, but don't take their body weight to the same extreme)

True: Horner raced just about everything that did not conflict with other pro-tour races from February through the TdF 2010.

1st: Veulta al Pais Vasco GC
2nd: Giro di Sadegna GC
4th: Tour of California GC
10th: Tour de France
7th La Fleche Wallonne
8th: Liege Bastogne Liege
10th: Amstel Gold Race

He also raced Paris Nice and helped Jani Brajkovic win the Duaphine last year.

But he did little but cyclocross after July.

Given 2010, I suppose some would argue a full schedule with those results would be suspicious.


True: Riders of Horner's age are not exclusive to this era of cycling.

True: Horner's win at this year Tour of California was a very specific goal, while arguably more than a few of the Pro Tour Teams showed up just to train and get paid.

True: Pro Tour Teams now have 27 riders: With that kind of depth, riders don't necessarily have to race all the time, especially with the huge base that Horner has.

Or if you like, he's already raced enough (mostly for other riders in Europe) during his career. Why not try something different.

True: Horner rides well in the peloton. That comes with experience and respect from the other riders. He is always well to the front of a race. That explains his Classics results despite being a rider that can't win one.

True: I knew some muckraker would start a thread like this.

True: Chris Horner has deserved some respect.

True: Horner never was a Postal.

True: I am disappointed that he's not racing the Suisse.

True: He placed 5th GC in the Suisse 2005, winning stage 6 riding for Sanuier-Duval.

True: If Chris Horner were not a bike racer, he would be riding bulls in the PBR.

For some quick facts on Chris Horner:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Horner

 

[BillytheKid]

Yes, and that is exactly what I said in my post. Saying that some riders showed little or no effect is a way of referring to variability among riders, rather than within the same rider. And the data you present in the rest of your post (which are also about inter-, not intra- individual variability) bear this out. Though in this case most of the riders do show a substantial effect, clearly the variability among them is very great, hence the large SD. Even throwing out the very low or negative values, riders in both studies differ by as much as three-fold.

Moreover, the average effects you show on time to exhaustion here (16-18%), are much larger than the effects on other physiological parameters in the studies I was commenting on: 4% for systolic pressure; 9% for oxygen cost; 4-6% for PO. Given the comparably large SDs in those studies, I strongly suspect that more individuals in those studies exhibit low or no effects. Time to exhaustion is frequently substantially increased in other studies, but I note that in the list of references you cite (appreciate that!), one study reported no change in time to exhaustion, while another reported a relatively small change, about 7.5%. VO2 max is frequently decreased, though with no accompanying decrease in performance.

I'm not saying this is isn't interesting work, but the large variability--in different labs, apparently, as well as different individuals--makes it hard to gauge just how beneficial this could be to riders. I found it interesting that one study suggested the effects could be accomplished simply by a diet rich in certain vegetables. Could it be that at least some of the large variation found in tests of athletes is that some of them, like Horner, are junk food addicts who aren't getting enough nitrate in their diet? So when they load up on beetroot juice, they get a big effect. Whereas the low responders might be at least partly explained by the fact that they are already getting substantial amounts of nitrate in their diet. Maybe there are data in some of these papers that address this possibility, I don't know.

Finally, like any PED (if one wants to call it that), nitrate may have detrimental effects. A primary function of nitric oxide is as a neurotransmitter to cause vasodilation (it’s the key molecule involved in the action of Viagra, e.g., and also nitroglycerin), and there is accumulating evidence that it may have other effects relevant to athletic performance. But in excess levels it may be associated with inflammation and even carcinogenesis, and there are also studies linking it to muscular degeneration. We really don’t know what the long-term effects might be of loading oneself up with nitraites may be. Caveat emptor.

How is this a PED?

 

[The Hitch]

(And to the person who accused me of slander by altering Horner's quote, there was a case before the Supreme Court -- New York Times v. Sullivan, 1964 -- that applies a different standard for libel when applied to public figures. One article noted "The Sullivan case was hugely important, better safeguarding the press to challenge, criticize, and satirize elected officials and public figures.")

Thats a good point, though it should be remembered that Supreme Court cases only apply to the Us and this is a worldwide forum.

Redneck Horner rode the Amgen Tour of California.
Alberto Bang Bang rode the Giro.

Under this logic, your hero won 7 TDF's and Andrey Mizourov won 7 Kazakhstan national championships. One and the same.

 

[BillytheKid]

Thats a good point, though it should be remembered that Supreme Court cases only apply to the Us and this is a worldwide forum.



Under this logic, your hero won 7 TDF's and Andrey Mizourov won 7 Kazakhstan national championships. One and the same.

Under this logic you can say bad things about whomever you like here?

 

[Rip:30]

Could it be that at least some of the large variation found in tests of athletes is that some of them, like Horner, are junk food addicts who aren't getting enough nitrate in their diet? So when they load up on beetroot juice, they get a big effect. Whereas the low responders might be at least partly explained by the fact that they are already getting substantial amounts of nitrate in their diet.

Loaded with nitrate.

 

[BillytheKid]

Loaded with nitrate.

Righteous Dude!

 

[BillytheKid]

http://www.steephill.tv/2011/criterium-du-dauphine-libere/photos/stage-03/#012-PIC202431133.jpg

So what's Wiggins' secret?