Horse racing, Sir Herny Cecil's wilderness years

[Freddythefrog]

OK I could put it in the "other sports" thread, but I think it can stand alone. Yesterday I was working in the garage and listening to the radio and they described how successful Sir Henry was over many years and that he then had a very barren spell. He was then, unlike any other trainer, able to come back and produce another great group of horses including his finest ever.

OK so we know where this is going. His finest thoroughbreds are now being beaten by a bunch of their long-eared relatives that would normally be found working at the beaches trotting on the sands and going "ehh ore" - where have we seen that before ? He toughs it out but eventually joins them.

I know next to nothing about horse racing other than at low level it is a bunch of enthusiasts with a bit of money having a great day out cheering on "their horse" and at the top end absolutely everything you could ever imagine is going on and probably more, with a bunch of officials who match the Exec Board of the UCI for a refusal to see the stark staring obvious.

Do the dates of the decline of Sir Henry match the growth of the use of EPO within the sporting World?

I only looked at wiki. That has his decline as really taking off in 1995 as owners pulled horses, so presumably 1994 was a poor year. From 2000 to 2006 Cecil did not produce a single group 1 race winner.

So what do you reckon. Anyone any first hand experience of horse racing or know anyone who works at stables ? Did the sport of kings take to the syringe, like the peloton ?

 

[armchairclimber]

Cecil's lean spell resulted from losing Sheikh Mohammed's horses. Nowt to do with drugs.

 

[Bicycle]

Cecil's barren years came when Sheikh Mohammed took away all his horses. Also his twin brother died. Prince Ahmed bin Salman looked like filling the gap left by the Sheikh but he died (after providing horses like Oath and Royal Anthem). Cecil's resurgence seemed to come with increased support from Khalid Abdullah with horses like Twice Over, Midday and finally of course Frankel.

I've always assumed in racing they're all using steroids.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Cecil's lean spell resulted from losing Sheikh Mohammed's horses. Nowt to do with drugs.

Read what you have said and what I have written.

 

[spalco]

Are horses in racing getting faster or are the times more or less constant?

 

[hiero2]

In the US - horse doping has been, if anything, more of a constant, and a known constant, than omerta dopage in cycling. Big scandals back way before I was old enough to know anything about it - 30's, 40's, or 50's. Probably went on into the 60's - and controls got put into place. Horses are pretty strictly regulated and tested here, I think - my impression is more so than humans.

Has EPO come to play a part? I imagine so. But, at the same time, over here, there are a lot of ppl ready to riot over doping of horses, so maybe it didn't get as far. I remember when DMSO was new - and controversial - and eventually controlled.

Keep in mind, tho, that this is either common news, or about 3rd hand from the occasional horsey friend.

 

[vedrafjord]

Cecil's lean spell resulted from losing Sheikh Mohammed's horses. Nowt to do with drugs.

The same Shiekh Mohammed whose favourite trainer Mahmood Al Zarooni just had 11 horses test positive for steroids?

 

[armchairclimber]

The same Shiekh Mohammed whose favourite trainer Mahmood Al Zarooni just had 11 horses test positive for steroids?

Yes. Let me know how many of the Sheik's horses failed dope tests before that clown of a trainer started using Steroids.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Significant doping in flat racing seems like it would become pretty obvious pretty quickly.

OK so you've turned your donkey into a champion. What happens next ? He gets shipped off to stud and broodmare owners pay large sums for a single covering. Within a few years it's obvious they've been ripped off when their expensive progeny turn out to be useless. You could get away with it with once maybe - there are examples of champions who were useless at stud - but more than once ?? Since breeding is where the money is in flat racing I think it's likely to be somewhat self-policing

Doping in flat racing would more likely be a case of keeping horses at peak level for longer and preventing injuries. Jumps racing might be a different matter

 

[zastomito]

Are horses in racing getting faster or are the times more or less constant?

More or less constant. Plus, racing careers are much shorter, usually if horse is seen as really good they make up some story like hairline fracture and retire him for stud after he competed and preferably won in some of the classics.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Anything interesting/suspicious at ze Royal Ascot?

 

[Cyivel]

I noticed a fair few of the horses had long faces, growth hormones?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I noticed a fair few of the horses had long faces, growth hormones?

I heard a horse collapse at the finish line?

edit: btw i can never forget that epic ride by frankie a many moons ago...i rewatch it from time to time

 

[Cyivel]

I heard a horse collapse at the finish line?

edit: btw i can never forget that epic ride by frankie a many moons ago...i rewatch it from time to time

Yeah a Horse just collapsed and died after winning, heart attack apparently, I've no idea if it's suspicious.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Great thread, a racehorse trainer dies and people, who admit they have no knowledge of him whatsoever (or the sport he participated in), come on here calling him a cheat, doper and horse murderer. Is this really why the clinic is here?

 

[Cyivel]

Who called him a horse murderer

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Who called him a horse murderer

Same question i had...great minds think ..sorta thing, i suppose

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

It was quite clearly suggested that Cecil doped a horse which led to the horse collapsing and dying in a race today.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

It was quite clearly suggested that Cecil doped a horse which led to the horse collapsing and dying in a race today.

Okay .. LOL

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Okay .. LOL

Fair enough. You posted on a Henry Cecil thread that there were suspicious goings on at Ascot not long after one of the horses he trained collapsed and died in a race. Maybe you can tell us what you were hinting at?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Fair enough. You posted on a Henry Cecil thread that there were suspicious goings on at Ascot not long after one of the horses he trained collapsed and died in a race. Maybe you can tell us what you were hinting at?

ON a doping forum I should add.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Okay find me a horse doping thread and i will post there.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Okay find me a horse doping thread and i will post there.

This thread is fine. Apologies for misunderstanding you but it would be nice to know what you meant.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Okay,it's cool.

 

[Pulpstar]

Doping clearly does go on in racing - Al Zarooni is obviously clear evidence of that. In addition different substances are legal in different juristictions.
As well as the fact you can use substances like bute on domestic horses but not racing stock.

Sir Henry though ? Doubt it but hey ho you never know.

One thing about the heart attack, horses heart rates go from ~ 30 at rest to ~ 240 at full exertion. Thats a HUGE range ( > Human athletes - 30 bpm - 200 tops maybe) and their hearts are obviously larger than human hearts so I'd think their risk of a heart attack are probably far higher than a human after a race. Not really evidence of doping.