How dirty is SaxoBank-Tinkoff?

[Mr. Larsen (DK)]

Is that you Uncle Bjarne.....

Nope Kid.

I'm just a Cycling fan, that don't judge riders/teams for something they haven't been found guilty in.

To judge a team for cheating with out proof, I can not really take seriously.

Its fair you don't like Riis, but so long they haven't got caught in any cheating they are as clean as anyone else team

 

[Benotti69]

Nope Kid.

I'm just a Cycling fan, that don't judge riders/teams for something they haven't been found guilty in.

Your in the wrong forum Uncle.

To judge a team for cheating with out proof, I can not really take seriously.

Riis is an admitted doper. How many current and former Riis team members have been associated with doping? Loads I cannot take it seriously that the team cleaned up its act. This sport needs to prove its not doping at this stage.

Its fair you don't like Riis, but so long they haven't got caught in any cheating they are as clean as anyone else team

I dont like dopers and cheats.

To take a position of they have not been caught therefore are innocent no longer washes.

 

[MellowJohnny]

Nope Kid.

I'm just a Cycling fan, that don't judge riders/teams for something they haven't been found guilty in.

To judge a team for cheating with out proof, I can not really take seriously.

Its fair you don't like Riis, but so long they haven't got caught in any cheating they are as clean as anyone else team

Haven't been found guilty in, or just plainly admitted years later.

 

[Mr. Larsen (DK)]

As i said earlier sorry *** looser

There were no problem when they had a tough year and very few strong rider profiles, now they got a strong team and are beginning to show their strengths and of course fans of other teams now got problem with it

Every big team has a background with dopers/cheaters in the past including Bjarne Riis, if you judge him for what riders in the past did in secret over 10 years ago, don't forget to do the same with Sky, Rabobank (Belkin), Astana, Katusha, Moviestar, Trek and many others

What ever happened many years ago was a picture of what at that time was a big problem in the Cycling sport in general and not just at Bjarne Riis. With exceptions for Michael Rogers positive test for Clenbuterol, which he by the way did not receive any penalty for, no other rider in newer time has been tested positive for doping at the time at Bjarne Riis.

Roman Kreuziger and Alberto Contador´s doping history happen before joining Bjarne Riis and not after

Good Night Gentlemen's

 

[Dazed and Confused]

lol, never tested positive.
Love it.

 

[Benotti69]

As i said earlier sorry *** looser

There were no problem when they had a tough year and very few strong rider profiles, now they got a strong team and are beginning to show their strengths and of course fans of other teams now got problem with it

Every big team has a background with dopers/cheaters in the past including Bjarne Riis, if you judge him for what riders in the past did in secret over 10 years ago, don't forget to do the same with Sky, Rabobank (Belkin), Astana, Katusha, Moviestar, Trek and many others

What ever happened many years ago was a picture of what at that time was a big problem in the Cycling sport in general and not just at Bjarne Riis. With exceptions for Michael Rogers positive test for Clenbuterol, which he by the way did not receive any penalty for, no other rider in newer time has been tested positive for doping at the time at Bjarne Riis.

Roman Kreuziger and Alberto Contador´s doping history happen before joining Bjarne Riis and not after

Good Night Gentlemen's

Try reading other threads.

The doping problem is not many years ago. All the doping enablers, with the 'reasoned decision' exceptions, are still working in the sport.

Doping hasn't gone away.....

 

[del1962]

Clinic issues aside, this is why Riis the best DS getting around. Whenever you see his teams they always have a true "band of brothers" feel about them, even back in the early 2000's. IMO Riis would have to be the best manager of riders and personalities in pro cycling.

Moved it for tou, you can worship mr 60% here

 

[del1962]

Riis knows how to get in the spirit!

Hoggie loves his Danish dopers

 

[sniper]

Moved it for tou, you can worship mr 60% here

Hoggie loves his Danish dopers

it is quite the achievement of Sky and Fraudford. Thanks to their unparalleled degrees of hypocricy, dopers previously shat on (such as Riis, Vino, Contador) are now seen in a whole different light and receiving renewed appreciation.

 

[the sceptic]

it is quite the achievement of Sky and Fraudford. Thanks to their unparalleled degrees of hypocricy, dopers previously shat on (such as Riis, Vino, Contador) are now seen in a whole different light and receiving renewed appreciation.

Riis is a lesser evil. I would take Bruyneel too. And both are much better at what they do/did than Brailford.

 

[del1962]

it is quite the achievement of Sky and .... Thanks to their unparalleled degrees of hypocricy, dopers previously shat on (such as Riis, Vino, Contador) are now seen in a whole different light and receiving renewed appreciation.

That reflects more on those who have those beleifs than anything else

 

[gooner]

it is quite the achievement of Sky and Fraudford. Thanks to their unparalleled degrees of hypocricy, dopers previously shat on (such as Riis, Vino, Contador) are now seen in a whole different light and receiving renewed appreciation.

Saying Brailsford is worse than Riis and Bruyneel with what we have, is an exaggeration out of all proportions.

It's baseless to even suggest it.

By your logic, as long as you're not a hypocrite with doping, you should get an easier ride. That's absurd.

 

[el_angliru]

Clinic issues aside, this is why Riis the best DS getting around. Whenever you see his teams they always have a true "band of brothers" feel about them, even back in the early 2000's. IMO Riis would have to be the best manager of riders and personalities in pro cycling. Failsfraud could learn a lot by observing his management methods.

I saw a video-interview with Jens Voigt yesterday. He was looking back at his career and said his greatest moment was being on the podium in Paris 2008 when CSC won the TDF team competition and Sastre won the tour. He actually stressed that special "band of brothers" feel, you mention. Team CSC and Bjarne were special according to Voigt, almost a "brotherhood" (he used this exact word).

Back to the Clinic: Cookson wants Riis to speak out. Riis has already spoken to Anti Doping Denmark. Nothing is leaked yet, and we don't know how much he has told the anti doping authorithies, and we're all waiting in excitement for the final report.

EDIT: moved form the Sky thread.

 

[sniper]

Saying Brailsford is worse than Riis and Bruyneel with what we have, is an exaggeration out of all proportions.

It's baseless to even suggest it.

By your logic, as long as you're not a hypocrite with doping, you should get an easier ride. That's absurd.

Nobody ever gets an easy ride in the Clinic.
Lance has been subject to all sorts of ridicule in here.
Vino and Riis have been dragged through all sorts of mud.
And when Contador got popped it was partytime in the Clinic.

But along came Sky, Dave and David, and now even Lance is likeable again.
As i said, it's quite the achievement.

 

[roundabout]

Riis has already spoken to Anti Doping Denmark. Nothing is leaked yet, and we don't know how much he has told the anti doping authorithies, and we're all waiting in excitement for the final report.

Lolz.

How does it go again?

Ah, a waste of taxpayer money.

 

[Energy Starr]

"Every big team has a background with dopers/cheaters in the past including Bjarne Riis, if you judge him for what riders in the past did in secret over 10 years ago, don't forget to do the same with Sky, Rabobank (Belkin), Astana, Katusha, Moviestar, Trek and many others"

Response: This is the dirty Tinkoff thread. We are here to discuss that...not other teams. That being said, Just because one thinks Tinkoff is doping doesn't mean one thinks the others aren't, ffs.

 

[mrhender]

"Every big team has a background with dopers/cheaters in the past including Bjarne Riis, if you judge him for what riders in the past did in secret over 10 years ago, don't forget to do the same with Sky, Rabobank (Belkin), Astana, Katusha, Moviestar, Trek and many others"

Response: This is the dirty Tinkoff thread. We are here to discuss that...not other teams. That being said, Just because one thinks Tinkoff is doping doesn't mean one thinks the others aren't, ffs.

Okay then let the discussion begin.....

Scenario one:

Riis has been running an extensive team doping-programme from the get go.
The whole setup with Rasmus Damsgaard from 2006 only had the aim of avoiding positive tests.
R. Damsgaard was if I recall correctly one of the fathers of the current BP or at least contributed in some way. By having him on the team as an internal controller Riis used him as a GPS as to where he could and not could go… Riis is not only knowingly supporting his riders doping, he is actively encouraging and running the scheme. Riis has intimate knowledge on how the BP works because of his cooperation with R.Damsgaard. (Hence the cases arising are from before riders where on his team)
He uses the full extent of his knowledge to provide results for him his team and sponsors..

Scenario two:

From the get go he knew that doping was inevitable if results mattered. He also knew he had to be very careful so he undertook an anti-doping stance, externally as internally. However he knew he couldn’t win any decent races without it so he secretly supports and run the programme of a few selects in his team (the ones who provided/provides the results in races of magnitude.. His approach here is that he better run it himself than letting riders do stupid mistakes that makes him look bad, however if a rider in his team chooses to dope he mostly turns the blind eye as he can’t be hold accountable if he doesn’t know (this requires that rider doesn’t fail internal testing) He is greatly annoyed that cases like AC and RK comes up after they join his team as the “bust” was pre-Riis.. A a result of this he is very strict with how and who as to doping in his team.

Scenario Three:

Riis and his team are according to his wishes mostly clean, however he still “allows” some sort of individual doping as it gets him results. He chooses only to involve himself with his current captain’s programme and only to avoid them being too “ambitious”. The rest of the team is more or less clean and may even also think that everybody (in the team) is clean in this scenario.
Doping is in general not accepted here.

Scenario four:

They are probably all(most) clean and individual doping in his team are not only not allowed, but he chooses to get rid of riders who can cause problems for him in the future.

A mix of these scenarios are also highly possible, and there is probably a lot left out. But lets (re)-start here?

 

[Taxus4a]

it is a supicious team, but it has not any evidence to be dirty, and it can be clean.

If it is not, I think is always with a small benefit, far from 90s and 2000s

 

[blackcat]

how about just, laissez faire, with the caveat, dont test positive

Okay then let the discussion begin.....

Scenario one:

Riis has been running an extensive team doping-programme from the get go.
The whole setup with Rasmus Damsgaard from 2006 only had the aim of avoiding positive tests.
R. Damsgaard was if I recall correctly one of the fathers of the current BP or at least contributed in some way. By having him on the team as an internal controller Riis used him as a GPS as to where he could and not could go… Riis is not only knowingly supporting his riders doping, he is actively encouraging and running the scheme. Riis has intimate knowledge on how the BP works because of his cooperation with R.Damsgaard. (Hence the cases arising are from before riders where on his team)
He uses the full extent of his knowledge to provide results for him his team and sponsors..

Scenario two:

From the get go he knew that doping was inevitable if results mattered. He also knew he had to be very careful so he undertook an anti-doping stance, externally as internally. However he knew he couldn’t win any decent races without it so he secretly supports and run the programme of a few selects in his team (the ones who provided/provides the results in races of magnitude.. His approach here is that he better run it himself than letting riders do stupid mistakes that makes him look bad, however if a rider in his team chooses to dope he mostly turns the blind eye as he can’t be hold accountable if he doesn’t know (this requires that rider doesn’t fail internal testing) He is greatly annoyed that cases like AC and RK comes up after they join his team as the “bust” was pre-Riis.. A a result of this he is very strict with how and who as to doping in his team.

Scenario Three:

Riis and his team are according to his wishes mostly clean, however he still “allows” some sort of individual doping as it gets him results. He chooses only to involve himself with his current captain’s programme and only to avoid them being too “ambitious”. The rest of the team is more or less clean and may even also think that everybody (in the team) is clean in this scenario.
Doping is in general not accepted here.

Scenario four:

They are probably all(most) clean and individual doping in his team are not only not allowed, but he chooses to get rid of riders who can cause problems for him in the future.

A mix of these scenarios are also highly possible, and there is probably a lot left out. But lets (re)-start here?

 

[blackcat]

it is a supicious team, but it has not any evidence to be dirty, and it can be clean.

If it is not, I think is always with a small benefit, far from 90s and 2000s

Riis was taking his A team to Fuentes in the 2005-6 offseason to get a program and blood withdrawal.

 

[nomapnocompass]

Riis was taking his A team to Fuentes in the 2005-6 offseason to get a program and blood withdrawal.

There is actually no evidence of that, rather a case of Riis pointing his riders towards Fuentes but not getting directly involved himself. The days of team programs are long gone, managers and DS's want plausible deniability now and no longer get directly involved. As others have said doping is now a much more clandestine affair with riders working closely with doctors/trainers but little team involvement.

 

[mrhender]

how about just, laissez faire, with the caveat, dont test positive

Maybe, but I have a hard time combining Riis with the bolded word..
However a strictly calculated laissez faire could be the case..

Riis was taking his A team to Fuentes in the 2005-6 offseason to get a program and blood withdrawal.

This is before attaching Rasmus Damsgaard?
I wonder to this day which role he "really" played in the internal anti-doping programme.
Or maybe he just got played..

 

[blackcat]

maybe you got played

 

[blackcat]

metaphorical motoman still in da house peeps

 

[HSNHSN]

Okay then let the discussion begin.....

Scenario one:

Riis has been running an extensive team doping-programme from the get go.
The whole setup with Rasmus Damsgaard from 2006 only had the aim of avoiding positive tests.
R. Damsgaard was if I recall correctly one of the fathers of the current BP or at least contributed in some way. By having him on the team as an internal controller Riis used him as a GPS as to where he could and not could go… Riis is not only knowingly supporting his riders doping, he is actively encouraging and running the scheme. Riis has intimate knowledge on how the BP works because of his cooperation with R.Damsgaard. (Hence the cases arising are from before riders where on his team)
He uses the full extent of his knowledge to provide results for him his team and sponsors..

Scenario two:

From the get go he knew that doping was inevitable if results mattered. He also knew he had to be very careful so he undertook an anti-doping stance, externally as internally. However he knew he couldn’t win any decent races without it so he secretly supports and run the programme of a few selects in his team (the ones who provided/provides the results in races of magnitude.. His approach here is that he better run it himself than letting riders do stupid mistakes that makes him look bad, however if a rider in his team chooses to dope he mostly turns the blind eye as he can’t be hold accountable if he doesn’t know (this requires that rider doesn’t fail internal testing) He is greatly annoyed that cases like AC and RK comes up after they join his team as the “bust” was pre-Riis.. A a result of this he is very strict with how and who as to doping in his team.

Scenario Three:

Riis and his team are according to his wishes mostly clean, however he still “allows” some sort of individual doping as it gets him results. He chooses only to involve himself with his current captain’s programme and only to avoid them being too “ambitious”. The rest of the team is more or less clean and may even also think that everybody (in the team) is clean in this scenario.
Doping is in general not accepted here.

Scenario four:

They are probably all(most) clean and individual doping in his team are not only not allowed, but he chooses to get rid of riders who can cause problems for him in the future.

A mix of these scenarios are also highly possible, and there is probably a lot left out. But lets (re)-start here?

How would the Michael Rasmussen story fit in with these scenarios? If we are to believe the dutch newspaper NRC, Riis sent Rabobank a letter of warning, when they hired him. This strongly suggests he was gled to get rid of Rasmussen, so in general of riders who can cause problems in the future, but in which scenario? The somewhat unlikely last one? The first one, but where a rider seeks extra 'help' outside of the team programma and is thus far more likely to be tested positive at some point? Anything inbetween?