How dirty is SaxoBank-Tinkoff?

[Carstenbf]

What happened to working hard in training and practice to derive the success you speak of?

I don't think doping enables you to forego hard training and practice. In fact it enables even harder training.

Always been a bit ambivalent on the subject. I ain't condoning cheating, but at the same time, I got a healthy amount of respect for how much effort guys like Lance or Riis had to put in to make it to the top. There's more to winning than just injecting EPO you know.

 

[melkemugg]

According to Jaksche it was quite organized: http://sporten.tv2.dk/tour/2013-07-03-toprytter-står-frem-jeg-har-vidnet-mod-riis

Jaksche tells that they could go to the team doctors for treatment. And that they could ask the team doctors which days they could take EPO without getting busted. And that they= the riders was given help so that they could dope. And Jaksche also discussed his doping program with Riis several times. So maybe Riis did a little more than to shut his eyes.

Obviously there were doctors in the beginning. Riis was a doper himself and knew what he could do to help if there was interest. Then we also have guys like Kurt Arvesen, that always seemed clean back in the day with CSC, that also makes me think that doping was avoidable.

When i wrote that he shuts his eyes i was thinking more towards the later years with SAXO i guess.

 

[D-Queued]

You have to believe you are committing a "wrong" in the first place for it to affect your conscience. Many believe they are doing something normal. In any case, there can't be many people who assign an infinite value to conscience (and norms, rules, altruism etc) so as to completely dominate their decision making. It doesn't help when doping is not condemned by their peers.

Peer doping doesn't have a lot to do with conscience formation. But, rather, situational ethics.

Conscience requires compassion, sympathy and empathy.

Notwithstanding heavy church doctrine (Google: Conscience formation) about how conscience can only be developed and sustained through strict devotion to scripture, conscience development is largely formed during the first three years of life.

So, let's just say some people might be a product of less than desirable family situations. There may not be enough scripture to read for them to right the wrong.

More to the point, some people's lack of conscience allows them to set a doping example for their peers to apply their own situational ethics and wrestle with their consciences.

Dave.

 

[Race Radio]

I don't think doping enables you to forego hard training and practice. In fact it enables even harder training.

Always been a bit ambivalent on the subject. I ain't condoning cheating, but at the same time, I got a healthy amount of respect for how much effort guys like Lance or Riis had to put in to make it to the top. There's more to winning than just injecting EPO you know.

Riis was hardly a winner before he took EPO. Lance did not even finish the Tour before he took EPO.

For both those guys doping was THE central factor in their winning

 

[Ripper]

Isn't doping justified by the desire to have a highly successful career?

Explainable, to a degree, might be a better choice in words. Justified does not work.

For example, one can explain than in certain cases, theft is simply based on a desire to have more $$. It's not justified though, as the J word has moral and legal implications.

 

[darwin553]

I don't think doping enables you to forego hard training and practice. In fact it enables even harder training.

Yes but it also allows you to get to a level of training much easier that you would be pleased with if you hadn't been doping in the first place.

Explainable, to a degree, might be a better choice in words. Justified does not work.

For example, one can explain than in certain cases, theft is simply based on a desire to have more $$. It's not justified though, as the J word has moral and legal implications.

This is the right answer.

 

[Big Doopie]

PS I don't like racism so stop with the spaniard ****.

You should be banned for this comment. BANNED! I hope you are.

I'm not going to defend against it because by doing so gives it credence.

First: in cycling they have always talked about the SPANISH climbers. It goes the same for the COLUMBIAN climbers. And the BELGIAN flatland/classics riders.

Seriously?! Do you know nothing about cycling history? Nothing at all?

Second: fact upon fact. The spanish anti-doping effort and political will has been perhaps the most lax of all. Documented. It is nothing against the riders. But it is a FACT that as long as these other FACTS stand, conclusions can be made.

Get a grip. Escape the imaginary world of false equivalency where you permanently reside.

However, you should be banned from these forums for that post.

 

[Big Doopie]

Riis was hardly a winner before he took EPO. Lance did not even finish the Tour before he took EPO.

For both those guys doping was THE central factor in their winning

Bingo. +1 million.

 

[Netserk]

I never heard of any Columbian climbers

 

[Big Doopie]

I hate the attitude that becaause others are doping it is somehow justified.

Also we don't know that others are doping that is just your beleifs.

We do know that it is highly likely that Alberto doped in the past (whether currently I have no idea - I hope not), but to somehow justify it by accusing other riders of doping (whetether they are or not ) with no evidence is not a great attitude.

Yes. Yes. And yes again.

 

[webbie146]

You should be banned for this comment. BANNED! I hope you are.

I'm not going to defend against it because by doing so gives it credence.

First: in cycling they have always talked about the SPANISH climbers. It goes the same for the COLUMBIAN climbers. And the BELGIAN flatland/classics riders.

Seriously?! Do you know nothing about cycling history? Nothing at all?

Second: fact upon fact. The spanish anti-doping effort and political will has been perhaps the most lax of all. Documented. It is nothing against the riders. But it is a FACT that as long as these other FACTS stand, conclusions can be made.

Get a grip. Escape the imaginary world of false equivalency where you permanently reside.

However, you should be banned from these forums for that post.

lol dude take your chill pill she didn't even say anything offensive at all -.-

 

[Big Doopie]

I never heard of any Columbian climbers

You're right of course.



Botero was a good tter. And we just know he was clean.

 

[Big Doopie]

lol dude take your chill pill she didn't even say anything offensive at all -.-

Yes she did. She called me a racist because the facts don't agree with her world of false equivalency.

She should be banned.

 

[LaFlorecita]

You should be banned for this comment. BANNED! I hope you are.

I'm not going to defend against it because by doing so gives it credence.

First: in cycling they have always talked about the SPANISH climbers. It goes the same for the COLUMBIAN climbers. And the BELGIAN flatland/classics riders.

Seriously?! Do you know nothing about cycling history? Nothing at all?

Second: fact upon fact. The spanish anti-doping effort and political will has been perhaps the most lax of all. Documented. It is nothing against the riders. But it is a FACT that as long as these other FACTS stand, conclusions can be made.

Get a grip. Escape the imaginary world of false equivalency where you permanently reside.

However, you should be banned from these forums for that post.

Calm down, just letting you know the constant "Spaniards are dopers" talk could seem very anti-spanish to some people.

Anyway I think the mods can decide whether I should be banned for that or not

 

[LaFlorecita]

Yes she did. She called me a racist because the facts don't agree with her world of false equivalency.

She should be banned.

I didn't call you a racist. I said some of your comments could be regarded as racist (of course it's not just you there are lots of others)

PS I don't like racism but there are people on this forum who really hate the "Spaniards&Italians are the dirty cheaters of the cycling peloton" thing

 

[Carstenbf]

Whatever. Not sure how to articulate my feelings really. Anyways, I'm sure you've been over all the different sides of the issue so many times over the past few years, that anything I can come up with is bound to get shot down in flames.

Just trying to provide some nuance here.

 

[Netserk]

You're right of course.



Botero was a good tter. And we just know he was clean.

Botero isn't Columbian

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Are there any terms for the
norwegian,danish,swiss,austrian,germans,russians,australians,americans etc?

 

[Clausfarre]

Calm down, just letting you know the constant "Spaniards are dopers" talk could seem very anti-spanish to some people.

Anyway I think the mods can decide whether I should be banned for that or not

We have to be able to deal with facts with no one getting special treatment. If certain people or countries are getting stick for their actions or lack thereof, so be it. What unknown people 'perceive' as anti this or that is completely irrelevant.

 

[Netserk]

Are there any terms for the
norwegian,danish,swiss,austrian,germans,russians,australians,americans etc?

Dopers.

10char

 

[Ripper]

Botero isn't Columbian

You're just confused. They are referring to Richard S Botero, who is from British Columbia, where folks are typically referred to as Columbian

 

[Big Doopie]

I didn't call you a racist. I said some of your comments could be regarded as racist (of course it's not just you there are lots of others)

Go ahead and backtrack. We both know what you were implying.

If calling Spanish climbers "Spanish climbers" is racist, this really is your problem. And yours alone.

Secondly, it is a FACT that the Spanish riders benefit from the most documented lax anti-doping efforts in the peloton. Their riders return from bans to documented doping teams and doping DSs. They are also unrepentant of their "past", protected politically and accepted back into that culture for business as usual.

Are you really saying that everything is equal compared to the French or the Germans? Ever wonder why Tony Martin with that amazing power never got his mountain wings?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Go ahead and backtrack. We both know what you were implying.

If calling Spanish climbers "Spanish climbers" is racist, this really is your problem. And yours alone.

Secondly, it is a FACT that the Spanish riders benefit from the most documented lax anti-doping efforts in the peloton. Their riders return from bans to documented doping teams and doping DSs. They are also unrepentant of their "past", protected politically and accepted back into that culture for business as usual.

Are you really saying that everything is equal compared to the French or the Germans? Ever wonder why Tony Martin with that amazing power never got his mountain wings?

No you were implying almost all Spanish results are the result of doping and apparently that is where your hate towards Alberto comes from. I don't care if you hate Alberto but implying that because he's spanish he got all his results because of doping is hard to accept for me and frankly sounds like racism to me.

 

[LaFlorecita]

We have to be able to deal with facts with no one getting special treatment. If certain people or countries are getting stick for their actions or lack thereof, so be it. What unknown people 'perceive' as anti this or that is completely irrelevant.

You completely missed the point. Well done.

 

[Netserk]

No you were implying almost all Spanish results are the result of doping and apparently that is where your hate towards Alberto comes from. I don't care if you hate Alberto but implying that because he's spanish he got all his results because of doping is hard to accept for me and frankly sounds like racism to me.

That's not racism.