How do Lowlanders learn to climb? (Official Mollema/Ten Dam/Belkin thread)

[blackcat]

In south asia there is a belief that people in "sunny places" are more horny than others.

nah thats the rhinoceros horn.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Have you tested the theory Zam?

No dice...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Granted, Mollema doesn't come falling out of the sky.
But he had never gone up the ventoux.
In a clean peloton, wouldn'T that be a huge disadvantage?

I still don't see how a country like France with real mountains and stuff isn't able to produce a climber of the caliber of Mollema.
In a clean(er) peloton, you'd expect France to have much more riders in the top. I guess that's my main concern.

We also suck at skiing for one reason: lack of mountains.

Maybe Alpine skiing, but there's nothing that says you have to have mountains to be good at cross country skiing. Arnd Peiffer's from Niedersachsen and has World Championship gold medals in biathlon. Not much of Sweden or Finland (or Russia for that matter) are mountainous but they pick up a lot of medals in the Nordic disciplines.

In fact, one of the brightest prospects at the junior level in biathlon is Chardine Sloof, all the way from the Netherlands. Granted, she lives and trains in Sweden, and probably needs to at least start training with the Swedish team to reach her potential just like Jakov Fak trained with the Slovenian team long before he changed nationality to compete for them, but still, Dutchwoman, top prospect, skiing.

 

[Cookster15]

But this has nothing to do with a country being flat. As for the Netherlands, it is kind of expected to punch above it's weight population-wise.

Good answers. The OP asks the wrong question. I too have been thinking Belkin are suspect but not because they have "lowlanders" high on GC. Eddy Mercx was a lowlander too wasn't he? Belgium might have hills but like Holland there is no genetic beneifit from generations being born at altitude such as for example Kenyans and even Columbians. If it is a training thing then in the modern age of professional teams there is no problem for lowlanders to train in mountains . If you have the engine the results will follow.

All this does not mean I think Mollema or Ten Dam are clean - it just means where they come from should not be the reason for any suspicion. The reason for Belkin suspicion is their sudden improvement - especially Ten Dam - not where they come from.

 

[blackcat]

I gave a plausible explanation for that already

Every pro out of Colombia must be able to climb or he would never made the cut.

This is a problem in the Netherlands as well, where climbers are filler. At least we are on the lookout for climbing talent, I doubt Colombians are on the lookout for echelon engines.

nah, its actually the FARC taking potshots at their @rses in the farking junglez that makes them, either (i)quick

or......

(ii)dead.


this is no handbags at 10 paces with julich and blijlevens. this $hit is real

 

[Bala Verde]

If one doesn't ask questions one doesn't learn

Colombia a nice country with some inclines i believe has produced some cyclists who are handy when the road goes up.

Derailing a thread by insinuating the OP is an idiot doesn't help discussion.

Ask all the questions you want. The problem is that this particular "working hypothesis" is ***.

 

[sniper]

So geography now determines physical abilities. I bet you also subscribe to the idea that people in "sunny countries" are lazy...

And then you question why they go to mountains to train for climbing...

If geography does determine ones cycling ability, as you seem to believe, they'd become amazing climbers just by sitting in front of a fireplace in a swiss chalet in the Alpes for years. Magically they'd become soaring eagles.

determine? who used that word?

Sometimes geography obviously correlates with physique (though not always, and not always in a straightforward way).
not sure how you plan to deny that.

 

[Stetoe]

In fact, one of the brightest prospects at the junior level in biathlon is Chardine Sloof, all the way from the Netherlands. Granted, she lives and trains in Sweden, and probably needs to at least start training with the Swedish team to reach her potential just like Jakov Fak trained with the Slovenian team long before he changed nationality to compete for them, but still, Dutchwoman, top prospect, skiing.

Nicoline Sauerbreij, Dutch Olympic Gold medalist winner on a snowboard.
I really wonder how she gained all those skills using the 5 cm of snow that lands here once every twelve months.

 

[Bala Verde]

determine? who used that word?

Sometimes geography obviously correlates with physique (though not always, and not always in a straightforward way).
not sure how you plan to deny that.

Sometimes? And how often does it not?

The "Dutch" are probably the tallest people on the earth because they want to be closer to the sun, being flat landers and all...

How come the Dutch don't have the best basketball players in the world?

 

[zlev11]

Yes, Belkin performance is suspicious. So is Movistar, Sky and Saxo.

Maybe even more suspicious is how BMC, Radioshack and Europcar's performance dropped so much.
Europcar got off their doping program after Rolland was almost caught?

but have they really dropped in performance? those were the 3 best teams at the 2011 Tour (well, Leopard) and all of those climbs were slow as sh*t. not saying any of them are clean, but still.

froome on this "form" would have also won that tour by 10 minutes like he will this one.

 

[sniper]

Colombia a nice country with some inclines i believe has produced some cyclists who are handy when the road goes up.

to be sure, whenever another Kelme Colombian was dominating another mountain stage in the TdF, commentators would traditionally say it's down to the fact that they grow up in the mountains.
The talent of Quintana this year is also said by many to be down to his Columbian roots and the fact that he was riding up mountains at such an early age.

It might be a stupid thought, but i'm certainly not the first to entertain it.

 

[Bala Verde]

A guy from Bordeaux, a Frenchman, a flat lander, is as far from the Alpes as a Dutch or Belgium or German guy born and raised in their respective flatland regions.

Should the frenchman be a better climber?

 

[sniper]

Good answers. The OP asks the wrong question. I too have been thinking Belkin are suspect but not because they have "lowlanders" high on GC. Eddy Mercx was a lowlander too wasn't he? Belgium might have hills but like Holland there is no genetic beneifit from generations being born at altitude such as for example Kenyans and even Columbians. If it is a training thing then in the modern age of professional teams there is no problem for lowlanders to train in mountains . If you have the engine the results will follow.

All this does not mean I think Mollema or Ten Dam are clean - it just means where they come from should not be the reason for any suspicion. The reason for Belkin suspicion is their sudden improvement - especially Ten Dam - not where they come from.

see my previous post. many commentators have contradicted you in the past. (not saying i am, though)

 

[Benotti69]

Ask all the questions you want. The problem is that this particular "working hypothesis" is ***.

I disagree.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

So geography now determines physical abilities. I bet you also subscribe to the idea that people in "sunny countries" are lazy...

And then you question why they go to mountains to train for climbing...

If geography does determine ones cycling ability, as you seem to believe, they'd become amazing climbers just by sitting in front of a fireplace in a swiss chalet in the Alpes for years. Magically they'd become soaring eagles.

I'm waiting for the first Nepalese Tour winner. Someone born at the foot of the himalaya's should stand a decent chance.

 

[Benotti69]

A guy from Bordeaux, a Frenchman, a flat lander, is as far from the Alpes as a Dutch or Belgium or German guy born and raised in their respective flatland regions.

Should the frenchman be a better climber?

Bordeaux aint that far from the Pyrenees.

A simple explanation of natural physical ability is all it needs, but that discounts the Colombians tend to be excellent climbers due to the nature of their terrain, oh and the bullets flying after them.

Maybe someone needs to start shooting at French cyclists?

 

[User Guide]

I'm waiting for the first Nepalese Tour winner. Someone born at the foot of the himalaya's should stand a decent chance.

British Cycling were at my daughters school few years back talent spotting in frikkin Burnley
We have Nepalese in our army,maybe they should extend the search there get in a few ringers.
Ghurka style in the alps,I like it

 

[BYOP88]

Bordeaux aint that far from the Pyrenees.

A simple explanation of natural physical ability is all it needs, but that discounts the Colombians tend to be excellent climbers due to the nature of their terrain, oh and the bullets flying after them.

Maybe someone needs to start shooting at French cyclists?

Who's to say they're not being shot at, but if we look at the French record in recent wars, nothing to get worried about if you out riding your bike

 

[Benotti69]

Who's to say they're not being shot at, but if we look at the French record in recent wars, nothing to get worried about if you out riding your bike

Maybe its needs another war so they can win a TdF

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I'm waiting for the first Nepalese Tour winner. Someone born at the foot of the himalaya's should stand a decent chance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McP32O3eNLM

 

[Franklin]

A pointless discusion

Greg Lemond & Andy Hampsten.

A tiny cycling country produces two GT winners in the same timeframe. One of them is even somewhat of a legend.

-> The size of the sample doesn't mean small countries can't produce winners.
-> History has shown that being born at sea level doesn't stop people to win mountainstages. And yes, that started way pre-epo

This thread is pointless.

 

[sniper]

A guy from Bordeaux, a Frenchman, a flat lander, is as far from the Alpes as a Dutch or Belgium or German guy born and raised in their respective flatland regions.

Should the frenchman be a better climber?

beware, this is real heavy mathematics coming up, but just try to follow me here:
france has ca. 80 million inhabitants and a lot of mountains.
netherlands have ca. 16million and no mountains.

my point (if any) was that on average france should produce more climbers than the netherlands (all other thing being equal)

 

[Franklin]

my point (if any) was that on average france should produce more climbers than the netherlands (all other thing being equal)

And they do... so what's your point?

 

[sniper]

Ask all the questions you want. The problem is that this particular "working hypothesis" is ***.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlF79D0iHaI

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

yep geography has nothing to do with producing climbers

Anyone suspicious of Mollema and Ten Dam for other reasons I can understand. I mean anyone high up in the Tour general classification is...