• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

How do Lowlanders learn to climb? (Official Mollema/Ten Dam/Belkin thread)

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
sniper said:
the fact that you didn'T understand it, doesn't mean it wasn't a good point.
France has ca. 80 million inhabitants and a lot of mountains.
Netherlands have 16 million inhabitants and no mountains.
Everything else equal, mere chance would predict (much) more French than Dutch success in the mountains.

on a side note: lighten up a bit ;)

You just admitting to trolling? Not sure.

Anyway, mountains don't make people cycle more. In fact, they do the opposite. The more mountains and hills in a country, the less feasible it is to travel large distances by bike.

So by your logic, no mountains in a country should result in more talent emerging per 1 million of people.
 
May 26, 2009
3,687
2
0
Visit site
sniper said:
- the coincidence of Ten Dam's and Mollema's peak form
- the fresh link-up with Gisbers.

I'll point towards my first post in this silly thread. You are building a nice strawman it seems.

And to drive this one home, you should realize that this could be answered with "Greg Lemond and Andrew Hampsten". The size of the sample doesn't mean there can't be huge talents.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
Visit site
sniper said:
the fact that you didn'T understand it, doesn't mean it wasn't a good point.
France has ca. 80 million inhabitants and a lot of mountains.
Netherlands have 16 million inhabitants and no mountains.
Everything else equal, mere chance would predict (much) more French than Dutch success in the mountains.

on a side note: lighten up a bit ;)
Having mountains or not having them has nothing to do with an individuals ability to be a climber of not.

(Nor has your subtle side point, doping)
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Visit site
So your point remains pretty silly.
why? we're here assessing how (un)expected Mollema's and Ten Dam's performances really are, right? So you just perfectly summarized my point:
Franklin said:
2013 is pretty extraordinary. Usually the French are ahead of us in the GC and in the stage count.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Visit site
Dr. Maserati said:
Having mountains or not having them has nothing to do with an individuals ability to be a climber of not.
ok, that point is dawning on me now.
but is there any evidence for that assumption?
or does the assumption merely follow from the fact that we've seen so many flatlanders dominate in the TDF mountains?
 
Just read the bait you are getting...

ffs

It follows from physics. Your bodytype determines if you go up a mountain fast or slow. Mountains don't shine around rays that transform tall, big boned, muscular and fat bodies into small-boned, non-muscular, short and lean ones.
 
May 26, 2009
3,687
2
0
Visit site
sniper said:
why? we're here assessing how (un)expected Mollema's and Ten Dam's performances really are, right? So you just perfectly summarized my point:

What is unexpected?

Bauke certainly was a podium candidate before the race started. The guy has been very good in GT's from the start. In fact he's the first dutch GT jersey winner since 1992. Bauke is pretty much regular GT talent fare of which we have seen many examples (even more pronounced) in the hundred+ years we had GT's. => Mark me down for actually being surprised he still hasn't won a GT stage considering he has a pretty good kick in his legs.

Laurens finished 8th in his last GT and it remains to be seen if he will do much better this time. His result curve is unusual, but consider he always was and still is a domestic it's not nearly as uncommon. Even pre epo it happened that domestics all of a sudden pumped out a good placing. Do I think it's suspicious? Of course it is. But be it with or without dope, these things happen.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Visit site
Almeisan said:
Just read the bait you are getting...

ffs

It follows from physics. Your bodytype determines if you go up a mountain fast or slow. Mountains don't shine around rays that transform tall, big boned, muscular and fat bodies into small-boned, non-muscular, short and lean ones.

if it's down to those physical variables, dutchies should have even less of a chance in the mountains (all other things being equal that is).

one way or the other, a dope free peloton should see france dominate over the netherlands in the mountains.
and (see franklin's post) indeed, historically, france has much more wins in the mountains than the netherlands. The fact that this year is different is by itself something that requires an explanation.
Doping could be such an explanation. If you have another explanation, do share.
 
May 26, 2009
3,687
2
0
Visit site
sniper said:
if it's down to those physical variables, dutchies should have even less of a chance in the mountains (all other things being equal that is).

one way or the other, a dope free peloton should see france dominate over the netherlands in the mountains.
and (see franklin's post) indeed, historically, france has much more wins in the mountains than the netherlands. The fact that this year is different is by itself something that requires an explanation.
Doping could be such an explanation. If you have another explanation, do share.

Lemond. Hampsten. :D


/thread
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Visit site
131313 said:
Only if you don't know much about cycling physiology.
isn't it obvious that i don't. a general human habit is to ask questions about things you don't know the answer to.
so what part of cycling physiology predicts two dutchmen in the top 5 and just one frenchman in the top 20?
 
sniper said:
if it's down to those physical variables, dutchies should have even less of a chance in the mountains (all other things being equal that is).

one way or the other, a dope free peloton should see france dominate over the netherlands in the mountains.
and (see franklin's post) indeed, historically, france has much more wins in the mountains than the netherlands. The fact that this year is different is by itself something that requires an explanation.
Doping could be such an explanation. If you have another explanation, do share.

That's all besides the point. Your argument was that you need to cycle up mountains to 'learn' to cycle up mountains fast.

If you go by population size and number of people cycling, China should be best. Yet there's not a single Chinese cyclist in the TdF.
The country with the highest number or riders is France. Why? Because it is called the Tour de France and it is held in France.

Yes, Belkin performance is suspicious. So is Movistar, Sky and Saxo.

Maybe even more suspicious is how BMC, Radioshack and Europcar's performance dropped so much.
Europcar got off their doping program after Rolland was almost caught?

But this has nothing to do with a country being flat. As for the Netherlands, it is kind of expected to punch above it's weight population-wise.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Visit site
Almeisan said:
That's all besides the point. Your argument was that you need to cycle up mountains to 'learn' to cycle up mountains fast.

If you go by population size and number of people cycling, China should be best. Yet there's not a single Chinese cyclist in the TdF.
The country with the highest number or riders is France. Why? Because it is called the Tour de France and it is held in France.

Yes, Belkin performance is suspicious. So is Movistar, Sky and Saxo.

Maybe even more suspicious is how BMC, Radioshack and Europcar's performance dropped so much.
Europcar got off their doping program after Rolland was almost caught?

But this has nothing to do with a country being flat. As for the Netherlands, it is kind of expected to punch above it's weight population-wise.

fair enough. good points, admittedly.

Maybe even more suspicious is how BMC, Radioshack and Europcar's performance dropped so much.
Europcar got off their doping program after Rolland was almost caught?
yap.
but then again, if mollema and ten dam are doping, that'd be quite gutsy as well so shortly after the rabo scandal.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Visit site
sniper said:
yap.
but then again, if mollema and ten dam are doping, that'd be quite gutsy as well so shortly after the rabo scandal.

Would UCI pop them so soon after getting a new sponsor? The way the sport is run I doubt it. How many of the big teams have had a rider test positive in recent years?

Contador the last, iirc, and then he was on Astana and i suspect Astana were being asked to donate a sysmex machine to the UCI :rolleyes:
 
Mar 10, 2009
7,268
1
0
Visit site
So geography now determines physical abilities. I bet you also subscribe to the idea that people in "sunny countries" are lazy...

And then you question why they go to mountains to train for climbing... :confused:

If geography does determine ones cycling ability, as you seem to believe, they'd become amazing climbers just by sitting in front of a fireplace in a swiss chalet in the Alpes for years. Magically they'd become soaring eagles.
 
Bala Verde said:
So geography now determines physical abilities. I bet you also subscribe to the idea that people in "sunny countries" are lazy...

And then you question why they go to mountains to train for climbing... :confused:

If geography does determine ones cycling ability, as you seem to believe, they'd become amazing climbers just by sitting in front of a fireplace in a swiss chalet in the Alpes for years. Magically they'd become soaring eagles.

In south asia there is a belief that people in "sunny places" are more horny than others. :D
 
May 26, 2009
4,114
0
0
Visit site
Benotti69 said:
Would UCI pop them so soon after getting a new sponsor? The way the sport is run I doubt it. How many of the big teams have had a rider test positive in recent years?

Contador the last, iirc, and then he was on Astana and i suspect Astana were being asked to donate a sysmex machine to the UCI :rolleyes:


And lets not forget with Bertie, if that sample went to any other lab Bertie would have a minimum of 3 TdF titles at this time.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Visit site
Bala Verde said:
So geography now determines physical abilities. I bet you also subscribe to the idea that people in "sunny countries" are lazy...

And then you question why they go to mountains to train for climbing... :confused:

If geography does determine ones cycling ability, as you seem to believe, they'd become amazing climbers just by sitting in front of a fireplace in a swiss chalet in the Alpes for years. Magically they'd become soaring eagles.

If one doesn't ask questions one doesn't learn;)

Colombia a nice country with some inclines i believe has produced some cyclists who are handy when the road goes up.

Derailing a thread by insinuating the OP is an idiot doesn't help discussion.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Visit site
BYOP88 said:
And lets not forget with Bertie, if that sample went to any other lab Bertie would have a minimum of 3 TdF titles at this time.

Did we ever find out if UCI sent it there? Maybe funds were low at Aigle.
 
May 26, 2009
3,687
2
0
Visit site
Benotti69 said:
Colombia a nice country with some inclines i believe has produced some cyclists who are handy when the road goes up.

I gave a plausible explanation for that already ;)

Every pro out of Colombia must be able to climb or he would never made the cut.

This is a problem in the Netherlands as well, where climbers are filler. At least we are on the lookout for climbing talent, I doubt Colombians are on the lookout for echelon engines. :D
 
May 26, 2009
4,114
0
0
Visit site
Benotti69 said:
Did we ever find out if UCI sent it there? Maybe funds were low at Aigle.

No Idea, if I remember didn't uncle Pat tell Bertie to ignore it at the start? But I still don't get if Pat told Bertie that why the UCI appealed to CAS when the Spanish let Bertie off. But then it is the UCI and they probably have no idea what they're doing.
 

TRENDING THREADS