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How do Lowlanders learn to climb? (Official Mollema/Ten Dam/Belkin thread)

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sniper said:
Vayer thinks belkin dope. Mollema and ten dam both scored "suspicious" on his doping index. You can hear vayer talk about this on a 7 min. Dutch tv report somewhere online, mainly wrt the 2013 ventoux stage. Shouldnt be hard to find but i,m not in position to link it now. The report itself is in dutch, but the vayer interview is in english with subs. Wasnt that spectacular, by the way, but still interesting to hear vayer call out belkin on dutch tv.
Comparing the performance effect of doping vis-a-vis Santambrogio, Belkin results donot explicitly indicate doping.

Afrank said:
Being a sprinter, does not need to dope but the test result was disappointing
 
Jul 10, 2013
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IndianCyclist said:
Comparing the performance effect of doping vis-a-vis Santambrogio, Belkin results donot explicitly indicate doping.


Being a sprinter, does not need to dope but the test result was disappointing
In cycling sprinters don't need to dope, just TTers and climbers. But in other sports the sprinting discipline is the posterboy of doping.

Hmm, pretty odd.

Also young track cyclists don't dope? Ever saw Forstemann's quads? They are bigger than those of completely juiced up bodybuilders that strength train the **** out of them 4 times a week.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Netserk said:
Wrong thread? :confused:
we had the discussion in this thread about the two Dutch riders climbing with the best in the TdF versus no French riders in the top 20, whereas in a doping-free peloton sheer chance (more cyclists) and geographic conditions (more mountains) would predict more and better French climbers than Dutch.

i'm pleased that this year's Vuelta has seen some good French performances.
perhaps they're upping their game again, though still far behind the Spanish.
 
Aug 14, 2009
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Not really.

I raced XC mtb in Texas, where I made good time on the short climbs <1k. Then I moved to New Mexico where the climbs exceed 15k.

Guess what? A good climber is a good climber, regardless of length.
 
Jan 15, 2013
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WillemS said:
Belkin announced that Theo Bos was cleared for racing by his team, Belkin, after external specialists concluded that the low levels of cortisol were caused by his asthma medication.
They don't give any details in the press release, so some elaboration/informed speculation from this asthmatic cyclist:

Most people with asthma have two inhalers: a fast-acting beta-2 agonist to relieve acute symptoms (salbutamol/'albuterol'/'ventolin') when needed, and a corticosteroid that's supposed to be taken every day that suppresses the overactive immune system in the lungs and reduces inflammation on a long term basis.

Inhalers are superior to oral/systemic medicine because they're delivered directly to where they're needed, thereby requiring a much lower dose and hopefully avoiding attendant side effects. This is good because corticosteroids especially are not very finely targeted drugs and have lots and lots of side effects.

Inhaled corticosteroids include: fluticasone, budesonide, mometasone, beclomethasone, ciclesonide. The one I'm familiar with is beclomethasone (sometimes 'beclometasone'). Beclomethasone has been found [1][2] not to reduce cortisol levels (i.e. what the MPCC tests for) but fluticasone has [3]. Should be easy enough to do some digging about the others, but presumably Bos was on one that can suppress cortisol and is now looking for one that won't.

Just to clarify as well: you don't need a TUE for inhaled corticosteroids, you just need to declare them. This wasn't always the case but it's now recogised that they're not performance enhancing.

[1] 1977 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/838522
[2] 1994 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474084/
[3] 1997 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9039246
 
Jul 19, 2010
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The fact that Alpe d'Huez is called the "Dutch Mountain" is already one of the most ironic things in pro cycling.

Everyone knows the Dutch doped to the gills during the Rabo days. I'd like to believe Gesink, Mollema and Ten Dam, etc. are "cleaner", but if they do dope, I wouldn't be surprised either.
 
Sep 6, 2013
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TheEnoculator said:
Everyone knows the Dutch doped to the gills during the Rabo days. I'd like to believe Gesink, Mollema and Ten Dam, etc. are "cleaner", but if they do dope, I wouldn't be surprised either.
What is telling, is their public response to their older "peers" being outed for doping. When the truth about Rabo came out (i.e. the Boogerd confession), it was Gesink, Mollema and Boom in particular who did not show the "old guard" any mercy in the Dutch press. All three were very vocal in distancing themselves from that generation.

I've never seen young Spanish or Italian top riders say the same things about Valverde, Scarponi, Basso, etc. So, either the new Belkin guard are actually a degree worse than their Southern European counterparts (not only keeping up omerta and evading the subject but actually going on the attack while doping themselves), or they are actually speaking the truth.

As I don't believe any of those three have Armstrong-esque hubris, I'm inclined to believe the latter - which would also explain their consistent fading in the third week of a grand tour.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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lieuwe! said:
I've never seen young Spanish or Italian top riders say the same things about Valverde, Scarponi, Basso, etc. So, either the new Belkin guard are actually a degree worse than their Southern European counterparts (not only keeping up omerta and evading the subject but actually going on the attack while doping themselves), or they are actually speaking the truth.
This is the dilemma also when assessing e.g. the German riders.
Very vocal against doping, but still providing world class results (Martin, Kittel). I don't buy it. I think they're worse, until i've seen actual evidence of their cleanlihood.

Look at Sky and Brailsfraud, same story, very vocal against doping, but you know what, let's hire Leinders.

A third (though perhaps farfetched) option is team doping. Go to the team doctor, get yourself a 'vitamin' shot, no further info. So some guys might genuinely think they're clean, whilst riding around doped to the eyeballs.

The 3rd week doesn't tell me much other than that the dutchies don't seem to be taking the risk of refilling at second rest day.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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lieuwe! said:
What is telling, is their public response to their older "peers" being outed for doping. When the truth about Rabo came out (i.e. the Boogerd confession), it was Gesink in particular who did not show the "old guard" any mercy in the Dutch press. All three were very vocal in distancing themselves from that generation.

I've never seen young Spanish or Italian top riders say the same things about Valverde, Scarponi, Basso, etc. So, either the new Belkin guard are actually a degree worse than their Southern European counterparts (not only keeping up omerta and evading the subject but actually going on the attack while doping themselves), or they are actually speaking the truth.

As I don't believe any of those three have Armstrong-esque hubris, I'm inclined to believe the latter - which would also explain their consistent fading in the third week of a grand tour.
How do you rate Gesinks' early carreer results then? No fading in third weeks as I recall. He has had troubles since 2010 off course, death of his father, several broken bones, but he has never gotten to his 2009 form, or was he just always a good follower of wheels whereas after 2009 he began to believe he was a GT winner? When looking at his attacks: they really don't stick.
 
lieuwe! said:
What is telling, is their public response to their older "peers" being outed for doping. When the truth about Rabo came out (i.e. the Boogerd confession), it was Gesink, Mollema and Boom in particular who did not show the "old guard" any mercy in the Dutch press. All three were very vocal in distancing themselves from that generation.

I've never seen young Spanish or Italian top riders say the same things about Valverde, Scarponi, Basso, etc. .
big difference is Scarponi Basso Valverde were all caught before and they are all still among them.

Weve seen some massive hypocrites use Ricco and Di luca as scapegoats while doping themselves and defending Lance.

We also saw one of Armstrongs greatest defenders - Wiggins, turn on Lance when Brailsford told him thats what he should do.

So I don't think critiscising people in public when that is what the media wants neccesarily means that much.

Not that Im saying Belkin is dirty. There is nothing particularly ridiculous about them at the moment.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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del1962 said:
I even finished eighth in Spain but I didn’t feel proud anymore
why wasn't he proud? if he rode that vuelta clean he'd have had all reasons to be proud. he should be screaming it off the friggin rooftops.
wonder why he's so mystical in that interview. He doesn't use the word "clean" once in that interview.

And if I see so many people at this book launch where Michael Rasmussen had only three people showing up in his hometown, that makes me happy again.”
ridiculizing the whistleblower.
straight from the dopers' omerta manual.

Even when I was at the baker’s people would tell me I probably was on EPO too.
well were you?
and of course EPO is the only ped out there:rolleyes:
 
del1962 said:
If Ten Dam is clean though, why shouldn't he be happy to get more ppl at his book launch than a doper though?
Ten Dam probably took a salary hit when Rabobank pulled the sponsorship. Ten Dam might like guys such as Boogerd etc. Rasmussen exposed the entire setup as a fraud.

Ten Dam probably took things personally.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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del1962 said:
If Ten Dam is clean though, why shouldn't he be happy to get more ppl at his book launch than a doper though?
if i were clean, i'd want the dopers to be exposed.
ten dam otoh suggests to be happy that the doping stories get as little attention as possible.
 
sniper said:
if i were clean, i'd want the dopers to be exposed.
ten dam otoh suggests to be happy that the doping stories get as little attention as possible.
Not is he feels those he is racing against are clean

Anyway other news on Belkin Case Closed

The management of the Belkin Pro Cycling Team checked external sources and talked at detail with team doctor, Dion van Bommel and bus driver, Piet de Vos in response to Michael Rasmussen's recent statements. Both employees fully cooperated. The team has no reason to investigate further or to take action against them. The management of Belkin Pro Cycling supports both employees and closes the case.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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del1962 said:
So are Belkin saying the Rasmussen's accusation are not true or do they just not care?
do you know if (andif so, in what context) Rasmussen explicitly mentions Van Bommel and De Vos in his book?
 
Apr 27, 2010
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sniper said:
do you know if (andif so, in what context) Rasmussen explicitly mentions Van Bommel and De Vos in his book?
He does. I try to translate.

Dr Van Mantgem told me the bus had been stopped in a policee razzia at a highway exit. Piet had just time enough to hide the Dynepo in his underwer. I thought 2Close call and then forgot about it. I had to get back on track
 

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