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How do Lowlanders learn to climb? (Official Mollema/Ten Dam/Belkin thread)

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Oct 16, 2010
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Coolair2970 said:
He does. I try to translate.

Dr Van Mantgem told me the bus had been stopped in a policee razzia at a highway exit. Piet had just time enough to hide the Dynepo in his underwer. I thought 2Close call and then forgot about it. I had to get back on track
Cheers! Ha, so piet knows how to hide stuff.

Van bommel and de vos at belkin taking care of the new clean guys.:rolleyes:
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dazed and Confused said:
Rabobank (the team) was a big fraud. Probably on a similar level as Telekom and US Postal. Some of Rabobank's biggest cheaters have already been exposed including Boogerd, Chicken, Sorensen, Dekker and Menchov and that team's dope doctor is under pressure. So whatever is left of the original Rabobank team have been trying to clean up the mess with a mini T&R with limited results. Ten Dam's recent statements tells me there are still cultural problems on the team and doping will likely return in a meaningful way.

Now I'm waiting for Ten Dam to win the Giro.
this.
and we now have three clear red flags:
de vos (hiding dynepo in his underpants)
van bommel (cortisone TUEs)
gisbers (former DS at PDM and brain behind their doping campaign, now about to be empliyed by Belkin to increase merchandising:rolleyes:)

all proven (former) doping facilitators now working for belkin.

it's increasingly easy to understand how lowlanders learn to climb like ten dam and mollema.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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sniper said:
this.
and we now have three clear red flags:
de vos (hiding dynepo in his underpants)
van bommel (cortisone TUEs)
gisbers (former DS at PDM and brain behind their doping campaign, now about to be empliyed by Belkin to increase merchandising:rolleyes:)

all proven (former) doping facilitators now working for belkin.

it's increasingly easy to understand how lowlanders learn to climb like ten dam and mollema.
Pardon me? Being mentioned by Rasmussen in a book now constitutes being a proven doping facilitator?

If it could be proven, Belkin would sack them as per the anti-doping convenant. If it can't be proven, which appears to be the case, Belkin has no legal ground to sack them. Unless they buy them off, for which being mentioned once in a subjective account seems kind of a flimsy reason.

The Telegraaf mentioned something about Gisbers back in July, but AFAIK that was about him having some plans regarding team continuity, making them less dependent on sponsors. And I haven't heard anything since.
 
theyoungest said:
Pardon me? Being mentioned by Rasmussen in a book now constitutes being a proven doping facilitator?

If it could be proven, Belkin would sack them as per the anti-doping convenant. If it can't be proven, which appears to be the case, Belkin has no legal ground to sack them. Unless they buy them off, for which being mentioned once in a subjective account seems kind of a flimsy reason.

The Telegraaf mentioned something about Gisbers back in July, but AFAIK that was about him having some plans regarding team continuity, making them less dependent on sponsors. And I haven't heard anything since.
But if Ras is lying, it constitutes slander and he can be sued for damages. The fact that nobody is doing anything means it looks to be true. For Belkin to close the case in so quick a fashion & not take action implies that the mentioned people confessed and gave the excuse that they did it for the team and not out of any personal benefit.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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IndianCyclist said:
But if Ras is lying, it constitutes slander and he can be sued for damages. The fact that nobody is doing anything means it looks to be true. For Belkin to close the case in so quick a fashion & not take action implies that the mentioned people confessed and gave the excuse that they did it for the team and not out of any personal benefit.
No, that is not what it implies. Since, like I said, the driver and the doctor would have been sacked, if that were the case.

People use a word like 'omerta' much too lightly, when there's also such a thing as the law and required proof, certainly in the Dutch law where you can't easily sack people.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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theyoungest said:
No, that is not what it implies. Since, like I said, the driver and the doctor would have been sacked, if that were the case.

People use a word like 'omerta' much too lightly, when there's also such a thing as the law and required proof, certainly in the Dutch law where you can't easily sack people.
there's been no public denial of rasmussen's claims.
it's proven in my book, i don't care for now if it's legally irrelevant.
besides, anybody with a brain knew before rasmussen's disclosure that all rabo docs were doping facilitators. Rasmussen's book just confirms it and provides details.

The continuity between USPS and Radioshack/Garmin is an obvious red flag to many. Similarly, the continuity between Rabo and Belkin is a red flag.

as for gisbers, he was widely considered the guy responsible for pdm's doping fiasco in 91. See here, for instance.
for belkin to even consider any sort of collaboration with him is a big red flag. And the talks were very serious, with much intent from belkin's part.
See e.g. here
 
Jan 11, 2010
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sniper said:
there's been no public denial of rasmussen's claims.
it's proven in my book, i don't care for now if it's legally irrelevant.
besides, anybody with a brain knew before rasmussen's disclosure that all rabo docs were doping facilitators. Rasmussen's book just confirms it and provides details.
It's okay if you don't care, however someone like Plugge lives in the real world, and has to deal with real people, real laws, and real money.

The continuity between USPS and Radioshack/Garmin is an obvious red flag to many. Similarly, the continuity between Rabo and Belkin is a red flag.
What continuity? Nearly everyone with a significant role in the Rasmussen-Tour doesn't work for that team anymore, and it seems like Rasmussen is grasping at straws when he even wants to take the bus driver with him in his fall.

Even if the story about the driver were true, what was he to do when Rasmussen stuck a syringe in his hands? Say f.ck you, and blow up his team, and his own job?

as for gisbers, he was widely considered the guy responsible for pdm's doping fiasco in 91. See here, for instance.
for belkin to even consider any sort of collaboration with him is a big red flag. And the talks were very serious, with much intent from belkin's part.
See e.g. here
I already quoted the Telegraaf, as you may have read above. Nowhere does it confirm that these talks actually happened, and nowhere do they say that Gisbers' involvement had anything to do with the actual team management and planning.

I can imagine Plugge has spoken to Boogerd once or twice as well. So now he's been infected?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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theyoungest said:
It's okay if you don't care, however someone like Plugge lives in the real world, and has to deal with real people, real laws, and real money.
sure and fair, it's good that you stress that.
But in my initial post 1 or 2 pages back, where i said "proven" dopers, i didn't mean 'legally proven', i meant 'common sensically proven'.

Even if the story about the driver were true, what was he to do when Rasmussen stuck a syringe in his hands? Say f.ck you, and blow up his team, and his own job?
fair point. (but doesn't apply to van Bommel; he could've refused to make backdated TUEs)

I already quoted the Telegraaf, as you may have read above. Nowhere does it confirm that these talks actually happened
It does. It says Gisbers was a guest of Belkin's during a TdF stage.
And Gisbers confirmed the talks himself. Or was he imagining things?

and nowhere do they say that Gisbers' involvement had anything to do with the actual team management and planning.
true, and i didn't say it did. I said merchandising. But isn't hiring Gisbers for merchandising a bit like hiring Leinders for saddle sores?
 
Feb 10, 2010
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theyoungest said:
People use a word like 'omerta' much too lightly, when there's also such a thing as the law and required proof, certainly in the Dutch law where you can't easily sack people.
Except Olympic Sport has gone to great lengths in many parts of the world to remain unencumbered by judicial/law enforcement standards. That's why the organization that handles sport disputes, CAS, is an NGO.

Meanwhile, most people are smart enough not to start down the litigation path. Regardless of your country, it gets very expensive very fast and may not get the desired results anyway.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Zam_Olyas said:
One of the best thread ever....:D Herr Sniper in all his glory.
well thank you zam. :eek::cool::D

i know how other greats of dutch cycling like theunissen, rooks, breukink and boogerd learned to climb.
but still no idea how mollema and ten dam managed to climb with the best up the ventoux last year.
 
Jul 10, 2013
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You don't learn to climb, you learn to descend.

You condition your body to produce the wattage. Then you pit your watts vs air drag, mud resistance, gravity or whatever.

You shape your body to have high watts/kg. That's how you 'learn' to climb.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Almeisan said:
You don't learn to climb, you learn to descend.

You condition your body to produce the wattage. Then you pit your watts vs air drag, mud resistance, gravity or whatever.

You shape your body to have high watts/kg. That's how you 'learn' to climb.
Nearly. Just have to deal with high vs low kinetic body movement and bike/body position and you're there.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Almeisan said:
You don't learn to climb, you learn to descend.
i agree.

but what about the importance of 'knowing' a mountain (as cycling commentators never cease to stress)?
in a clean peloton, i'd reckon 'knowing' (i.e. having explored) a mountain would indeed be an important marginal gain.
mollema never had never gone up the ventoux prior to the tour, but instead preferred to train in girona in april.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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sniper said:
i agree.

but what about the importance of 'knowing' a mountain (as cycling commentators never cease to stress)?
in a clean peloton, i'd reckon 'knowing' (i.e. having explored) a mountain would indeed be an important marginal gain.
mollema never had never gone up the ventoux prior to the tour, but instead preferred to train in girona in april.
As long as you know how long a climb is, the total ascent and the length/gradient of the steepest pitch then in the context of a GT, that's probably all you need to know. Pros aren't likely to get caused problems by an unexpected section at 20% and they are all pretty good at guaging their efforts over a known volume of work. It's not like there is a choice of route to be made. You just point the bike up the middle of the tarmac, look ahead every so often,ride to your preferred measure of effort, counting down the distance/time to the finish.

Unexpected really steep pitches might cause gearing issues for the pros.

Knowing the climb in detail would help if you were racing up it and simply needed to take a few seconds off the opposition, as you'd be able to assess the optimum point for an attack, which someone unfamilar with the detail wouldn't necessarily be able to do.

Knowing a descent helps, as there is definitely "home advantage" for alpine skiers and white-water canoeist. Very few descents end close enough to the finish for this to be an advantage, as breakaways who've descended well get gobbled up by trailing groups on the flat.
 
Oct 15, 2012
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Catwhoorg said:
Bauke Mollema ‏@BaukeMollema 2h

Waiting to do my first UCI blood control of the year. Isn't that a bit late?

============================

Yes, Yes it is.
Should we be annoyed that there hasn't been earlier testing, pleased that Bauje seems to care about the subject, or both?
 
so much of climbing has nothing do with climbing when i trained to cross the pyreenes lots of my focus was on flat spins at good pace getting my cadence nicely ticking over and staying out of upper threshold and burning fat, i only went on climbs then to test myself as the work had been done on the flat.
 
sniper said:
i agree.

but what about the importance of 'knowing' a mountain (as cycling commentators never cease to stress)?
in a clean peloton, i'd reckon 'knowing' (i.e. having explored) a mountain would indeed be an important marginal gain.
mollema never had never gone up the ventoux prior to the tour, but instead preferred to train in girona in april.
A big piece of fatigue is your perception of being able to last to the finish at a given effort. If you're already on the edge, and come on an unexpected ramp up or take the wrong line around a hairpin, its going to affect the way you (think you) are able to ride the rest of the climb.

Some get the level of detail they need by riding the course, and some could get it from teammates' word or videos of previous editions.
 

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