How far can Cavendish go?

[Hmmmmm]

And yet you can say the same thing about Armstrong's 7 wins when his competition were going through various crises etc. Compare those wins to some of Eddy's wins where he had to battle it out with Ocana, a climber who himself was a born tour winner.

Yet at the end of the day Lance has the record and Eddy, Jacques, Bernaurd and co. fell short. With Cav though his wins may not be as big an accomplishment in terms of how he accomplished them at the end of the day he may have the highest tally and that will be an accomplishment which surpasses Eddy.

Uh, yes, I agree.

 

[Ildabaoth]

To be fair, I find time limits are sometimes too harsh and, in a certain way, they can even stimulate sprinters to use additional medical aid *wink wink*. Mostly because they punish non climbers, but there aren't instances where, for example, people are disqualified for being too slow sprinters or bad tters (it would take a really awful time to be dqed in a tt).

I normally dislike sprints and I find they boring. But the guy is the best in that discipline and to try to dismiss him just because his climbing abilities aren't so good is equivalent to dismiss almost pretty every other top sprinter in history.

 

[El Pistolero]

And yet you can say the same thing about Armstrong's 7 wins when his competition were going through various crises etc. Compare those wins to some of Eddy's wins where he had to battle it out with Ocana, a climber who himself was a born tour winner.

Yet at the end of the day Lance has the record and Eddy, Jacques, Bernaurd and co. fell short. With Cav though his wins may not be as big an accomplishment in terms of how he accomplished them at the end of the day he may have the highest tally and that will be an accomplishment which surpasses Eddy.

Yet there's no one with a bit of cycling knowledge that thinks Armstrong is the best GT racer.

 

[El Pistolero]

To be fair, I find time limits are sometimes too harsh and, in a certain way, they can even stimulate sprinters to use additional medical aid *wink wink*. Mostly because they punish non climbers, but there aren't instances where, for example, people are disqualified for being too slow sprinters or bad tters (it would take a really awful time to be dqed in a tt).

I normally dislike sprints and I find they boring. But the guy is the best in that discipline and to try to dismiss him just because his climbing abilities aren't so good is equivalent to dismiss almost pretty every other top sprinter in history.

That's because no professional cyclist gets dropped on flat stages anymore unless he worked for his team, crashes or nasty wind(in which case Cav would be dropped as well as we saw in Qatar).

Miguel Indurain almost rode his own brother out of the Tour in a prologue once. But he conveniently had a flat tire that cost him 20 seconds and his brother barely made the time cut.

I don't think the time limits are harsh. 33 minutes after the winner to make the time cut on a hilly stage is too much if you ask me.

 

[Hmmmmm]

And yet you can say the same thing about Armstrong's 7 wins when his competition were going through various crises etc. Compare those wins to some of Eddy's wins where he had to battle it out with Ocana, a climber who himself was a born tour winner.

Yet at the end of the day Lance has the record and Eddy, Jacques, Bernaurd and co. fell short. With Cav though his wins may not be as big an accomplishment in terms of how he accomplished them at the end of the day he may have the highest tally and that will be an accomplishment which surpasses Eddy.

Records are records and the numbers can not be disputed. Whether you and I agree or not, I don't know, and I don't care. The fact is that Merckx not only holds a record but he also has won the TdF five times. Records do not always point to quality or substance. None of these guys are gods to me, they are just bicycle racers, but some achievements outweigh others no matter what the numbers say.

 

[Caruut]

If he gets more wins than Merckx it will be an achievement. Having the most GT stage wins in history is just one element that defines Merckx's place in cycling history, there is so much more to him. If Cavendish does it, it will become the defining aspect of his career. I don't think anyone is going to claim that Cav is a better cyclist than Merckx if he does this, but it is an achievement nonetheless.

Take Roger Bannister's 4-minute-mile, for example. At the time, it was hugely impressive. Modern nutrition, training, and maybe a bit of clinic have changed that, so that now 4 minutes isn't great for a top-class runner, but it doesn't really take away from his feat.

 

[Hmmmmm]

If he gets more wins than Merckx it will be an achievement. Having the most GT stage wins in history is just one element that defines Merckx's place in cycling history, there is so much more to him. If Cavendish does it, it will become the defining aspect of his career. I don't think anyone is going to claim that Cav is a better cyclist than Merckx if he does this, but it is an achievement nonetheless.

Take Roger Bannister's 4-minute-mile, for example. At the time, it was hugely impressive. Modern nutrition, training, and maybe a bit of clinic have changed that, so that now 4 minutes isn't great for a top-class runner, but it doesn't really take away from his feat.

+1 Well said.

 

[El Pistolero]

If he gets more wins than Merckx it will be an achievement. Having the most GT stage wins in history is just one element that defines Merckx's place in cycling history, there is so much more to him. If Cavendish does it, it will become the defining aspect of his career. I don't think anyone is going to claim that Cav is a better cyclist than Merckx if he does this, but it is an achievement nonetheless.

Take Roger Bannister's 4-minute-mile, for example. At the time, it was hugely impressive. Modern nutrition, training, and maybe a bit of clinic have changed that, so that now 4 minutes isn't great for a top-class runner, but it doesn't really take away from his feat.

But it will be just that: statistics.

A lot of guys who won less Tour stages than Cavendish, but they did it in a more impressive way and were more varied. Maertens and Hinault to name just 2. Or even Thor Hushovd who has won stages from breakaways, hilly stages, sprint stages, team time trials(the only reason his team won in 2001 was because of him actually) and a prologue. Those are things you can't see in a statistic, but are much more important.

 

[karlboss]

I thought the OP asked if the record would be broken, I don't think many would take that as a sign that Cavendish is a better rider than Merckx. If he rides well the next 4 years, he'll almost certainly have the records, and will be well remembered for being one of the best sprinters ever. He will never be remembered or spoken of as as one of the greats of the sport, everyone knows that the greats win monuments and GTs. Even if he wins MSR 6 times it wouldn't make a difference.

 

[Von Mises]

But it will be just that: statistics.

A lot of guys who won less Tour stages than Cavendish, but they did it in a more impressive way and were more varied. Maertens and Hinault to name just 2. Or even Thor Hushovd who has won stages from breakaways, hilly stages, sprint stages, team time trials(the only reason his team won in 2001 was because of him actually) and a prologue. Those are things you can't see in a statistic, but are much more important.

It is not just statistics. It defines him. It defines Cavendish as the best sprinter of all time, better than Cippolini, better than Pettachi. Hushovds palmares is very good, but there are many riders similar to him. But most stage wins - there can be only one. Sure, numbers do not show everything, sure you can always have discussions like what is more impressive, Boonens 3 Flanders vs Durands 1 (but 200 km breakaway) Flanders, and so on and on...

Noone is saying that Cavendish is better cyclist than Merckx. And absolutely true that Cavebdish is not versatile as Boonen, Hushovd and many-many others. He is very narrow in his speciality, but sheer dominance in this narrow speciality is still impressive and if he continues to win with same rate, no doubt that he will be defined as one of the cycling all time greats.

 

[El Pistolero]

It is not just statistics. It defines him. It defines Cavendish as the best sprinter of all time, better than Cippolini, better than Pettachi. Hushovds palmares is very good, but there are many riders similar to him. But most stage wins - there can be only one. Sure, numbers do not show everything, sure you can always have discussions like what is more impressive, Boonens 3 Flanders vs Durands 1 (but 200 km breakaway) Flanders, and so on and on...

Noone is saying that Cavendish is better cyclist than Merckx. And absolutely true that Cavebdish is not versatile as Boonen, Hushovd and many-many others. He is very narrow in his speciality, but sheer dominance in this narrow speciality is still impressive and if he continues to win with same rate, no doubt that he will be defined as one of the cycling all time greats.

How many riders are similar to Thor Hushovd?

I can find a lot of cyclists that are similar to Cavendish. Come'on name them and I will name mine.

Cav's record will be broken in the future. If you look at that list of most GT stage wins you see 3 modern sprinters all rank high. Won't take long for a new and even better sprinter to come up. Perhaps if some African nations start to get into cycling more...

People sometimes forget that the pure sprinters that specialize on just that are relatively new to the sport...

 

[spalco]

I can find a lot of cyclists that are similar to Cavendish. Come'on name them and I will name mine.

But none as good (not even close), which is the point.

 

[Michele Scarred Pony]

How many riders are similar to Thor Hushovd?

I can find a lot of cyclists that are similar to Cavendish. Come'on name them and I will name mine.

Cav's record will be broken in the future. If you look at that list of most GT stage wins you see 3 modern sprinters all rank high. Won't take long for a new and even better sprinter to come up. Perhaps if some African nations start to get into cycling more...

People sometimes forget that the pure sprinters that specialize on just that are relatively new to the sport...

If I'm following your logic, many more (potentially African) people will start specializing and become pure sprinters. This will make the competition more fierce, which could mean that Cav's record will stand til the end of days.

Let me explain to you graphically:

 

[El Pistolero]

But none as good (not even close), which is the point.

Peta and Cipo in their prime.

If only Peta rode the Tour more often... The one time he did start he won 4 stages. Still beat Cav in 2010 for the green jersey and 2 stages.

Peta is a rather peculiar sprinter. He started dominating at a relatively late age and still has a good sprint nowadays. Pretty amazing.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Still beat Cav in 2010 for the green jersey and 2 stages.

Didn't Cav win 5 that tour?

 

[El Pistolero]

Didn't Cav win 5 that tour?

Yes, but Peta was 36 years old then and still beat him for consistency in a 3 week Tour. If he had his speed from 2004-2006 back Cav wouldn't have won as much.

For a 36 year old to win 2 stages in the Tour and the green jersey... It impressed me more than Cav.

 

[woodie]

Didn't Cav win 5 that tour?

And six the year before and five the year after with the green jersey plus wins all over the season. I think El Pisti is grasping at straws

Yes, but Peta was 36 years old then and still beat him for consistency in a 3 week Tour. If he had his speed from 2004-2006 back Cav wouldn't have won as much.

For a 36 year old to win 2 stages in the Tour and the green jersey... It impressed me more than Cav.

True, and it was impressive but Peta has all those years in his legs so of course he is stronger and more consistant than Cav, Cav is only what, 26/27? Lets see what he does as he gets older and develops even more strength and longevity.

 

[El Pistolero]

If I'm following your logic, many more (potentially African) people will start specializing and become pure sprinters. This will make the competition more fierce, which could mean that Cav's record will stand til the end of days.

Let me explain to you graphically:

Show that graphic to Usain Bolt.

I would definitely love to see some African and Afro-American athletes in this sport of ours. I think they could dominate a couple of disciplines.

 

[El Pistolero]

And six the year before and five the year after with the green jersey plus wins all over the season. I think El Pisti is grasping at straws

My argument was build around Peta's age and how he still beat Cav for 2 sprinting stages and the green jersey even though he wasn't nearly as fast anymore as in his prime. Says a lot to me. A lot.

What competition did Cav have in the Tour of 2008?

Doesn't it also say a lot that the guys who are now considered to be some of the fastest in the world, after Cav, were his old team-mates? Sprinting field seems more open this season with Greipel and Goss on different teams and up and coming sprint talents like Sagan and Kittel.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Yes, but Peta was 36 years old then and still beat him for consistency in a 3 week Tour. If he had his speed from 2004-2006 back Cav wouldn't have won as much.

For a 36 year old to win 2 stages in the Tour and the green jersey... It impressed me more than Cav.

One of the stages Peta won was when Cav and some of the other sprinters were caught in a crash. Not saying that he may not have won anyway or that positioning is all part of it but only that Cav was not outsprinted.

Peta was by far the strongest on Stage 4.

For sheer speed I am not sure that a prime Peta would take Cav. Sadly, we'll never really know.

 

[woodie]

My argument was build around Peta's age and how he still beat Cav for 2 sprinting stages and the green jersey even though he wasn't nearly as fast anymore as in his prime. Says a lot to me. A lot.

What competition did Cav have in the Tour of 2008?

Doesn't it also say a lot that the guys who are now considered to be some of the fastest in the world, after Cav, were his old team-mates?

And Cav beat him in another 5 stages. I have a lot of respect for Peta and he beat Cav due to a mix of smarts and speed, he is a great, there is no denying it but at the moment Cav is becoming the best road sprinter of all time. Sure one day there will be a better sprinter but Cav is young and already has a huge palmares.

How far can he go? Based on how sprinters like Hushovd and Peta have developed i'd say a long way.

As to what competition he had that year I can't really remember that detail that long ago but it's still a huge achievement

 

[El Pistolero]

One of the stages Peta won was when Cav and some of the other sprinters were caught in a crash. Not saying that he may not have won anyway or that positioning is all part of it but only that Cav was not outsprinted.

Peta was by far the strongest on Stage 4.

For sheer speed I am not sure that a prime Peta would take Cav. Sadly, we'll never really know.

Yes, I know. Cav decided to ride straight into a corner.

He caused that crash by him self and was positioned horribly. If someone else caused the crash he'd have an excuse, but not now...

 

[spalco]

Peta and Cipo in their prime.

No, demonstratively not once Cav is done. That's the good thing about sprinters, their achievements can be compared to each other with a decent degree of objectivity.

 

[Caruut]

This is a truly ridiculous line of argument - Petacchi is really good because of his achievements at 36. Of course if how well you're sprinting at 36 is your barometer of success Petacchi wins. Cav isn't 36. It's like trying to compare the 18-year-old single malt whiskeys put in the barrels in 1990 and 2010.

 

[spalco]

Show that graphic to Usain Bolt.

I would definitely love to see some African and Afro-American athletes in this sport of ours. I think they could dominate a couple of disciplines.

Besides the fact that Bolt is not African, I agree, more colour would do cycling a lot of good, also for global appeal.