How far can Cavendish go?

[Escarabajo]

Yes, but it wasn't my point. My point is that no-one has been sent home for accepting/not stopping pushes. So, the rules are being applied the same to everyone.

Victor Hugo Peña in the Tour of Spain. Don't remember the year but I am sure it was in the Angliru stage.

I don't remember if there was another cyclist that was sent home that day also.

 

[Caruut]

Victor Hugo in the Tour of Spain. Don't remember the year but I am sure it was in the Angliru stage.

I don't remember if there was another cyclist that was sent home that day also.

Was really meaning this Giro or another race with Cav in, but interesting to know anyway. Do you remember the details? Was it Peña taking the mick or just race officials being mean because they could?

 

[FellOff]

Peta and Cipo in their prime.

If only Peta rode the Tour more often... The one time he did start he won 4 stages. Still beat Cav in 2010 for the green jersey and 2 stages.

Peta is a rather peculiar sprinter. He started dominating at a relatively late age and still has a good sprint nowadays. Pretty amazing.

He also won four stages of TDF in 2003. If only he hadn't "inadvertently consumed too much medication" (court of arbitration for sport) he'd be even more widely respected. Won bucket loads of GT stages outside the TDF.

Re. Hushovd- Cav has also won a TTT: Giro 2009. So what?

The question is - will Cav get more GT stage wins than Delio Rodríguez? Until he does, I can't take him seriously.

 

[El Pistolero]

Thor won the TTT in 2001 with a small team and he was the big motor there. That's what. He also won a cobbled stage, forgot to mention that. AND he wore the yellow jersey for more then a week.

 

[El Pistolero]

Was really meaning this Giro or another race with Cav in, but interesting to know anyway. Do you remember the details? Was it Peña taking the mick or just race officials being mean because they could?

Nicko Eeckhout was thrown out of Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne because he supposedly hung onto a motor too long. Although no footage actually showing it or any proof. Was the world of an offocial versus Eeckhout and the guy on the motor who also denied it.

 

[spalco]

Thor won the TTT in 2001 with a small team and he was the big motor there. That's what. He also won a cobbled stage, forgot to mention that. AND he wore the yellow jersey for more then a week.

All of that's great, but not really the hallmark of a sprinter.

 

[El Pistolero]

This thread is about Cav breaking a record, not about him being a sprinter. I'm just adding a little bit of nuance to that record.

 

[c&cfan]

This thread is about Cav breaking a record, not about him being a sprinter. I'm just adding a little bit of nuance to that record.

i truly believe that if someone like eddy (with his strategy and strengths/weaknesses) was racing today (as a marked man) he would have 0 wins. he would be out climbed every time, outsprinted every time, etc..

different times, different races, different riders.

cav is just the worlds best at sprinting. in my opinion, that's so much better than being the 10th best at climbing and 10th best at tting.

hushovd isn't good enough to be compared to cav. he just isn't, that's why his palmares is already irrelevant to cav and cav is 26. hushovd focused in other areas because he just wasn't good enough.. not because he was more talented (like boonen is, for example).

 

[hfer07]

In this Giro? as long as the cars are near by to get him the proper push..........
In his Career? all depends, because at some point he'll begin to lose the sprinting power, so he may need to train his body to cope with the change & transform himself into a more all rounded rider-ala Boonen or Hushov....

 

[El Pistolero]

i truly believe that if someone like eddy (with his strategy and strengths/weaknesses) was racing today (as a marked man) he would have 0 wins. he would be out climbed every time, outsprinted every time, etc..

different times, different races, different riders.

cav is just the worlds best at sprinting. in my opinion, that's so much better than being the 10th best at climbing and 10th best at tting.

hushovd isn't good enough to be compared to cav. he just isn't, that's why his palmares is already irrelevant to cav and cav is 26. hushovd focused in other areas because he just wasn't good enough.. not because he was more talented (like boonen is, for example).

If Eddy was riding today he would have adjusted his strategy and training methods accordingly. His palmares would be smaller, for sure, but still mighty impressive. You're fascinated by guys with great genetics, well he has them. His heart rate in rest was ridiculously low and borderline dangerous. I'll throw the ball right back at ya, if Cav was a pro during the 70s he'd have won zero races.

Even if Cav focused on hills and cobbles he'd still fail.

Hushovd always had a good prologue in him from the day he turned pro. Cav isn't good enough to be compared to Eddy and never will be. Boonen's palmares is so great because of the fact he's great in more than one thing.

 

[El Pistolero]

In this Giro? as long as the cars are near by to get him the proper push..........
In his Career? all depends, because at some point he'll begin to lose the sprinting power, so he may need to train his body to cope with the change & transform himself into a more all rounded rider-ala Boonen or Hushov....

Boonen could always get over a hill. He won the WC in 2005 and was the only real sprinter that survived.

 

[Michele Scarred Pony]

Show that graphic to Usain Bolt.

Usain Bolt is a universal phenomenon. Such people are generally considered as anomalies and can thus not be included in graphical predictions based on your own flawed logic.

 

[Michele Scarred Pony]

Boonen could always get over a hill. He won the WC in 2005 and was the only real sprinter that survived.

Boonen is a real sprinter?

 

[El Pistolero]

Usain Bolt is a universal phenomenon. Such people are generally considered as anomalies and can thus not be included in graphical predictions based on your own flawed logic.

Yep, never any phenomenons in professional sports. Never.

 

[c&cfan]

If Eddy was riding today he would have adjusted his strategy and training methods accordingly. His palmares would be smaller, for sure, but still mighty impressive. You're fascinated by guys with great genetics, well he has them. His heart rate in rest was ridiculously low and borderline dangerous. I'll throw the ball right back at ya, if Cav was a pro during the 70s he'd have won zero races.

Even if Cav focused on hills and cobbles he'd still fail.

Hushovd always had a good prologue in him from the day he turned pro. Cav isn't good enough to be compared to Eddy and never will be. Boonen's palmares is so great because of the fact he's great in more than one thing.

yes... boonen is totally different than cav. eddy was a monster and i hate him for other reasons.

cav became the best of the world in sprinting. that's pretty awesome. obviously it is not enough for him to be seen as a boonen (prestige wise. he is a legend) but it is good enough for him to be seen as as a much better rider than hushovd (just like petachi and cipo are).. even andy and gilbert.

yes, the stages are boring. yes, he needs his team to bring the pack together...
but then again sprinting is an art. i don't believe that bolt's gold medals aren't as good as some medals from a few marathon winners.. for each his own.

i see cav as a great rider, because he became the best sprinter (by far) and he is very good for the sport. (he isn't a d*ck like andy, but he knows how to p*ss someone off... and we need the andys, the cipos, riccos, armstrongs etc)

 

[El Pistolero]

I never did call Hushovd's palmares better though.

I however do think, right now, his 12 Tour stage wins are more impressive than Cav's 20.

 

[Magnus]

If I'm following your logic, many more (potentially African) people will start specializing and become pure sprinters. This will make the competition more fierce, which could mean that Cav's record will stand til the end of days.

Let me explain to you graphically:

Lolwut?

So you're saying that half of the population are better sprinters than Cav, 85% of the population are better sprinters than Zabel and Supermario and 15% of the population are better sprinters than African sprinters?

 

[c&cfan]

I never did call Hushovd's palmares better though.

I however do think, right now, his 12 Tour stage wins are more impressive than Cav's 20.

i don't.. i believe you are looking at it the wrong way (but maybe i'm the one that is wrong).

thor did what he did not because he was strong enough to do it, but because he was weak to do anything else. he never rode the peloton out of his rear wheel.

he was weak (compared to cav) and tried his luck. those wins were awesome and a pleasure to watch, but those were "let's see if i get lucky" wins and not this "i'm gonna destroy you all at once":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNLMYpr2TM :

or this "catch me if you can, losers":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDPVFX2vvKY

you are talking like if he got those 12 wins this way, witch he didn't and you are forgetting why he tried his luck. it wasn't "for fun" like contador did.. it was because it was his only way to win.. and that's quite sad to have a former world champion that can only try and and see if he gets lucky.

that is what i think. if i'm wrong, please.. show me.

 

[Red Rick]

Can we please stop making these threads? Everyone should know this will end up being a thread in which Pisti makes at least 20 new posts mocking Cav, and we get a discussion that's discussed 100 times. Stop comparing apples and oranges (or banana's for that matter). If you're not willing to take a serious look at someone's argument, you shouldn't discuss things cause it's ****ing useless

 

[boomcie]

Lolwut?

So you're saying that half of the population are better sprinters than Cav, 85% of the population are better sprinters than Zabel and Supermario and 15% of the population are better sprinters than African sprinters?

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a nerd.

 

[Morbius]

How many riders have the complete set of points races?
After a quick scan I count Petacchi, Jalabert, Merckx - any others?

 

[maltiv]

Lolwut?

So you're saying that half of the population are better sprinters than Cav, 85% of the population are better sprinters than Zabel and Supermario and 15% of the population are better sprinters than African sprinters?

I think what he's saying is that he has no idea what a normal probability distribution is, because that graph shows that the expected value of a sprinter is to be at Cav's level

 

[Froome19]

Records are records and the numbers can not be disputed. Whether you and I agree or not, I don't know, and I don't care. The fact is that Merckx not only holds a record but he also has won the TdF five times. Records do not always point to quality or substance. None of these guys are gods to me, they are just bicycle racers, but some achievements outweigh others no matter what the numbers say.

I dont really understand this, as I was not comparing acievements but rather stating how as you stated clearly yourself: "Records are records and the numbers can not be disputed.", therefore Cav's record is a record which is better than Merckx end of.

The fact that Merckx also won 5 Tours is totally irrelevant as it is a record but a totally separate one. For all it matters we could be talking about a specialist climber like Virenque or Moncoutie who never won a GT but won GT stages, yet they won them in the mountains which according to your argument is better than winning them not in the mountains/ not through breaks/ climbing hills etc. Tonnes of Kudos to Merckx for winning 12 Gts and he will be remembered for th
at but it has no impact on the quality of his tour/GT wins achievement.

But it will be just that: statistics.

A lot of guys who won less Tour stages than Cavendish, but they did it in a more impressive way and were more varied. Maertens and Hinault to name just 2. Or even Thor Hushovd who has won stages from breakaways, hilly stages, sprint stages, team time trials(the only reason his team won in 2001 was because of him actually) and a prologue. Those are things you can't see in a statistic, but are much more important.

Are they?
So you are arguing that winning different stages in the tour, account for different levels of achievement...
Is that necessarily true? of course it is much more of an accomplishment to win a mountain stage, but does that truly impact on the level of achievment....?
I think it all matters on whether you can correlate achievment and accomplishment, which i dont think necessarily are the same as Achievment is effectively defined as success which does not vary on the level of effort which is put in but rather it is determined by the end result, so therefore the achievement will be the same whatever effort is put in, so there is no relative difference, unless you consider mountain stages to be more prestigious, yet that is not a view shared by all and therefore the achievement of winning 20 sprint stages as opposed to 20 mountain stages can not be considered different.

It is not just statistics. It defines him. It defines Cavendish as the best sprinter of all time, better than Cippolini, better than Pettachi. Hushovds palmares is very good, but there are many riders similar to him. But most stage wins - there can be only one. Sure, numbers do not show everything, sure you can always have discussions like what is more impressive, Boonens 3 Flanders vs Durands 1 (but 200 km breakaway) Flanders, and so on and on...
.

Yes, exactly

Noone is saying that Cavendish is better cyclist than Merckx. And absolutely true that Cavebdish is not versatile as Boonen, Hushovd and many-many others. He is very narrow in his speciality, but sheer dominance in this narrow speciality is still impressive and if he continues to win with same rate, no doubt that he will be defined as one of the cycling all time greats.

This also but I would slightly disagree with you, that as his sprinting leads him to tour wins in fact he can be considered alongside these riders in that same category of riders who have won tour stages.
Cav is the rider who has won 33 GT stages, it is irrelevant of how he won them, so yes he can be considered a legend due to his sprinting but he can also be considered a legend due to his sheer list of achievments as portrayed by his palmares.

He also won four stages of TDF in 2003. If only he hadn't "inadvertently consumed too much medication" (court of arbitration for sport) he'd be even more widely respected. Won bucket loads of GT stages outside the TDF.

Re. Hushovd- Cav has also won a TTT: Giro 2009. So what?

The question is - will Cav get more GT stage wins than Delio Rodríguez? Until he does, I can't take him seriously.

Cav also has won Vuelta 2010 TTT

Hushovd always had a good prologue in him from the day he turned pro. Cav isn't good enough to be compared to Eddy and never will be. Boonen's palmares is so great because of the fact he's great in more than one thing.

Is that true?
Imo Boonen's palmares are dictated by his abilities on the cobbles alone, course tour stages and jerseys etc are prestigious but Boonen is indentified and will be remembered as a cobbled classic rider and that is where his greatest strengths lie.

Without his sprinting imo he would still be considered a great cyclist and there would not be that much effect on his legacy.

 

[El Pistolero]

Boonen won the world championship on a hilly course where all pure sprinters were dropped. If he was just a sprinter, he wouldn't have won there. Robbie and Peta were dropped for example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfflplqpUt4

^And here's another example of Boonen being more than just a sprinter.

Also, he still won 6 flat stages and a green jersey in the Tour. Definitely adds to his legacy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tus4pXT5kQ

And here he won the Belgian nats on a hilly course.

In the Tour de France 2006 he conquered the yellow jersey on a stage that had the Cauberg close to the finish. So yeah, Boonen is more than just a sprinter and more than just a cobbled classic rider.

 

[El Pistolero]

How many riders have the complete set of points races?
After a quick scan I count Petacchi, Jalabert, Merckx - any others?

Abdoujaparov.