how long before Sagan trips the tripwire

[Ozzie2]

I'm actually quite sad about this
I really want him to be that good
And of course he is brilliant!

It isn't a bag of blood or needle that does the peddling up the hill- it IS him and his natural talent that is doing it

But when you have super athletes, and another athlete just goes past them, in today's professional sport, well, you have to be deliberately naive or ignorant not to see it for what it is. and thats the sad thing about professional sport. boxing, tennis, cycling, weightlifting.

I really want him not go get busted. i think the LA thing will hurt the sport enough this year

But I can only see this ending in tears, and the sport will be the loser for it

This is a real shame

but He's just too good. too soon. too often. too much. too unusual

I read these pages and the vitriole for Blackcat over 2 months ago, and then it was "Haussler is a hack, no real riders in Tour Cali", just wait until the Tour

Oh my goodness hasn't anyone seen what he is achieving this year, and now at the tour!

Never mind Ricco, this Landis kind of performance

I don't care about the celebrations. I can live with that, im stupid, he's stupid, we're all stupid

and 300kms in a saddle at that speed does things to the brain, and half his luck

sorry, he's NOW doing the things people were saying "oh, if he does that in the TdF then..."

well, he is. and not just in a small way

i mean 2 of the first 4

uphill finishes

this guy might even win the time trials!

wow.

sure, he's a super athlete

but he's just too much better than the others

and you don't get that, at that level, (never mind this quickly)


are any of the deniers prepared to submit what they don't believe he could be capable of in the tour, as in absolutely couldn't win a mountain top stage, kind of thing?

 

[Praetor]

The weird or suspicious thing about Sagan, to me, is not that he seems to be this dominant, but that he's doing it at this young age.

I mean, he was good at MTB, but he became a pro without having achieved that much on the road and immediately, he was a contender in pretty much every single stage of his first Paris-Nice. Day after day after day after day, without losing his edge like you might expect a very young (20!!) cyclist to do.

It's not that uncommon for a young guy to show promise at an early age, but in a stage race, they pay the price the next day. Except for Peter "average at 18, average at 19, biggest talent of the last 20 years at 20" Sagan.

 

[Mshengu]

I don't think Sagan could pull a Davide Rebelin, at least not yet. He hasn't been winning big races. The thing is, if he fails to win monuments, is he going to do something silly and trip the wire.

Sagan has great potential, but he shouldn't let it get to his head

 

[frenchfry]

Let's get back to serious business: Sagan is the new Vino. Only the awesomeness. Not the dope.

Thus the problem - Vino's supposed awesomeness was always dope-fueled. No dope, no awesomeness.

 

[hrotha]

Thus the problem - Vino's supposed awesomeness was always dope-fueled. No dope, no awesomeness.

I call BS. Vino never was up there by climbing or time-trialing with the best. A clean Vino might not have been more than a Hoogerland, but damn he would have kept the awesomeness intact.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't think Sagan could pull a Davide Rebelin, at least not yet. He hasn't been winning big races. The thing is, if he fails to win monuments, is he going to do something silly and trip the wire.

Sagan has great potential, but he shouldn't let it get to his head

Winning 2 stages of the Tour is winning BIG races. Some would say that every stage of a Tour De France equates to winning a monument if not it is very close.

 

[Caruut]

Winning 2 stages of the Tour is winning BIG races. Some would say that every stage of a Tour De France equates to winning a monument if not it is very close.

What!? That's ridiculous. For a real pure climber, perhaps winning the toughest mountain stages is like a monument, but a regular stage, hell no. 2 stages is still big, but I would put a stage on about the same level as a semi-classic.

The weird or suspicious thing about Sagan, to me, is not that he seems to be this dominant, but that he's doing it at this young age.

I mean, he was good at MTB, but he became a pro without having achieved that much on the road and immediately, he was a contender in pretty much every single stage of his first Paris-Nice. Day after day after day after day, without losing his edge like you might expect a very young (20!!) cyclist to do.

It's not that uncommon for a young guy to show promise at an early age, but in a stage race, they pay the price the next day. Except for Peter "average at 18, average at 19, biggest talent of the last 20 years at 20" Sagan.

When he was 18, he came 2nd in Paris-Roubaix juniors, 2nd in cyclocross worlds juniors and was MTB world and European Champion. That is not "average", is it?

Another thing to consider is that when he was 20, in his first year at Liquigas, they kept him away from the GTs. He was able to peak for different goals (whether this peaking was innocent or not), and such was in better condition for races like P-N and Cali.

 

[Caruut]

Let's think about this another way - who are the best uphill finishers in the peloton?

Rodríguez isn't at the Tour

Valverde is going for GC and probably wants to conserve himself, especially with no bonus seconds on offer

Gilbert is on horrible form

Brother Andy is absent in body, brother Frank is absent in mind

Evans is another more concerned about not blowing up and losing seconds than he is about gaining them, and the finishes are really too short for him, aren't they?

Vanendert is another who perhaps needs a tougher race/longer finish to make an impact

Cunego isn't at the race

Cancellara isn't a true hilly rider, and is more concerned about staying in yellow

It's not like he's beating 2011 Gilbert is what I'm really trying to say.

 

[wattage]

Problem is that while everyone else was dying out there on that last climb, Sagan didn't even break a sweat and had all the energy left to do his Forrest Gump-celebrations. It looks bad, really bad. People have the right to be suspicous I think, because we have seen it before.

 

[Praetor]

When he was 18, he came 2nd in Paris-Roubaix juniors, 2nd in cyclocross worlds juniors and was MTB world and European Champion. That is not "average", is it?

Another thing to consider is that when he was 20, in his first year at Liquigas, they kept him away from the GTs. He was able to peak for different goals (whether this peaking was innocent or not), and such was in better condition for races like P-N and Cali.

That doesn't explain recuperation skills that seem limitless. Even the most talented younglings need to recover a bit after a demonstration of their talent, the consistence only comes with the years. Except Sagan.

Although I agree that, during this Tour de France, there is also a small case of overestimation of his wins, since everything fell perfectly into place, a lot of stuff happened that turned out fortunate for him.

But then again, my suspicions are not based on this Tour, they started two years ago.

 

[zigmeister]

Problem is that while everyone else was dying out there on that last climb, Sagan didn't even break a sweat and had all the energy left to do his Forrest Gump-celebrations. It looks bad, really bad. People have the right to be suspicous I think, because we have seen it before.

What looks bad? He is being tested daily for doping after every stage he wins, that is how it is done.

The "passport" by this time in the current race year should be going ballistic wouldn't you think if he was?!?!

Youth has it's advantages also. And as you can see, he can't get pass the best pure sprinters on a flat finish. Greipel, Cav and the rest of the pure sprinters. He is usually being rendered to around 4-5th place.

Watching the stage right now leading up to the mid-way sprint point, he has 3 guys leading him out! Sagan got boxed, but Renshaw even just passed him, Cav, Goss, Renshaw then Sagan for the mid-sprint point.

So it isn't like he is some World beater in every respect. Slight uphill finish, with BMX/Mountain bike background, being 6' tall and 160lbs, he has power.

 

[phanatic]

That doesn't explain recuperation skills that seem limitless. Even the most talented younglings need to recover a bit after a demonstration of their talent, the consistence only comes with the years. Except Sagan.

Although I agree that, during this Tour de France, there is also a small case of overestimation of his wins, since everything fell perfectly into place, a lot of stuff happened that turned out fortunate for him.

But then again, my suspicions are not based on this Tour, they started two years ago.

Is recuperation within the race and between races much different? That second place in PR Juniors followed a solo attack from 80 km out, and he still held on for second after being caught.

 

[wattage]

What looks bad? He is being tested daily for doping after every stage he wins, that is how it is done.

Ah, then he must be clean because we know that UCI would do everything to catch cheaters

What I meant was when someone makes other people look like juniors at top level, people have the right to be suspicous about performance like that based on what we have seen in pro cycling. I wouldn't not bet my house on someone like that being clean. Would you? No you would not.

 

[karlboss]

are any of the deniers prepared to submit what they don't believe he could be capable of in the tour, as in absolutely couldn't win a mountain top stage, kind of thing?

This tour he'll not win a MTF, TT, or flat sprint that Greipel or Cav take part in.

Will that do?

Benotti
Tour stage = monument, seriously?
cq ranking points tell the truth of that, 80 vs 275. Now you can claim they are just points, but they are based on prestige.
UCI points 20 vs 100.

 

[killswitch]

That doesn't explain recuperation skills that seem limitless.

In 2010 he was burned out by June (Tour de Suisse) and only got a 2nd place in one of the Canadian one-day races in the second half of the season. Last year he raced 30 days more but Liqui made for him a more spaced out program. The other puncheurs in this Tour aren't performing at their best level too.

 

[Kicker661]

I'm a little puzzled by the sentiments of doping innuendo towards Sagan, he's the Cavendish of Hilly finishes, and yet Mark doesn't get the same treatment? even the salutes were odd in Mark's earlier victories and nothing was mentioned. why does Sagan gets more of these doping accusations and not Cavendish????

You can't turn someone into a sprinter, you are born a sprinter. Winning a sprint doesn't come down to who does the most drugs, it comes down to how quickly and how many fast twitch fibres a person can fire. That's why a sprinter will stay at the top of the game for years and years because once you are the fastest, you stay there until to slow down (age) or someone comes along who is quicker.

When the climbers are all doping it makes the sprinters look like they are dog slow up hills which they aren't. When the top guys wind back their doping like last year, you see they aren't light years ahead of the pack at all.

 

[taiwan]

...I wouldn't not bet my house on someone like that being clean. Would you? No you would not.

On the contrary, I would not not not not bet my house on Sagan being clean

 

[Altitude]

Of course he's doping. The guy's been on/near the podium in all the biggest, baddest races since what, March? Think that's natural? Not that I give a sh!t, he's a phucking huge talent either way. But he's most certainly doping, just like all the best riders in the world. Get over it already.

 

[gatete]

You can't turn someone into a sprinter, you are born a sprinter. Winning a sprint doesn't come down to who does the most drugs, it comes down to how quickly and how many fast twitch fibres a person can fire. That's why a sprinter will stay at the top of the game for years and years because once you are the fastest, you stay there until to slow down (age) or someone comes along who is quicker.

When the climbers are all doping it makes the sprinters look like they are dog slow up hills which they aren't. When the top guys wind back their doping like last year, you see they aren't light years ahead of the pack at all.

Maybe that's the reason why I'm confused then, but isn't Sagan a sprinter, surely not the pan flat sprint finishes where I think Greipel, Cav own him but isn't that his talent, I've been watching Sagan fighthing the intermediate sprints like a sprinter and not too bad, I really don't think he's a climber (BTW, if anything I don't deny the high possibility of him being charged to the gills I'm just saying....)

 

[Altitude]

You can't turn someone into a sprinter, you are born a sprinter. Winning a sprint doesn't come down to who does the most drugs, it comes down to how quickly and how many fast twitch fibres a person can fire. That's why a sprinter will stay at the top of the game for years and years because once you are the fastest, you stay there until to slow down (age) or someone comes along who is quicker.

When the climbers are all doping it makes the sprinters look like they are dog slow up hills which they aren't. When the top guys wind back their doping like last year, you see they aren't light years ahead of the pack at all.

2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Leopard Trek 0:01:34
156 André Greipel (Ger) Omega Pharma-Lotto 3:35:04

Lol, wtf are you on about? That looks like a couple light years to me.

 

[Mont Ventoux]

As long as he can steer clear of Lance and his merry band of doping facilitators, Peter should do fine.
Just stay awaay from Johan, LAnce, US Postal, Livestrong and Dr. Ferrari.
Would love to see him take the green jersey to Paris.

 

[noddy69]

As long as he can steer clear of Lance and his merry band of doping facilitators, Peter should do fine.
Just stay awaay from Johan, LAnce, US Postal, Livestrong and Dr. Ferrari.
Would love to see him take the green jersey to Paris.

Unless US postal have reformed I dont think thats gonna be a problem.

 

[happychappy]

Recent wide open flat stages show Sagan doesn't have the same power delivery of the big boy sprinters, so he isn't that unbeatable at all. Just good at what he does best - uphill or technical end sprints. Sure, he'll destroy the second tier flat sprinters in races like the ToC but that's different.

Oh really.

 

[Caruut]

Oh really.

No Cav, no Kittel, a banged up Greipel, and Goss isn't quite a "big boy", in my view.

 

[barn yard]

did you watch the finish today?

no cav
greipel left about a litre of blood and a bunch of skin on the road
petacchi is old
goss was out in the wind for about 400m and eventually had to sprint from about 12th wheel
van hummell's lead out snapped a chain

today's win does not indicate anything more abnormal than his normal form so to speak imo