How much doping really helps?

[andy1234]

Lance was heading for 25yrs of age when he himself admitted he didnt have what it takes to be a Tour contender. He wasnt even considering becoming a GC rider. This was Springtime 1996. Most riders know by 24/25 if they can be Tour riders, especially if they have already ridden 3 Tours.

As we dont know what Lance was taking in those years, it is plausible that he might not have had the same programme as other guys so was underpowered against the top guys. I would happily admit that he might have become a Top 10 Tour rider at some stage but a 7 time totally dominant Tour winner. Nobody and I mean nobody saw that.

I agree.
Nobody could have predicted what actually happened, but it's BS when people argue that LA couldn't compete in stage races, or that he was an ordinary rider. It shows a lack of understanding of what type of rider is able to finish on the podium of LBL, Paris-Nice, World RR champs etc.

Its refreshing to hear a realistic take on his ability.

 

[ChrisE]

Whatever he was going to say was always what he has been saying all his pro life, lies nothing but lies. Hence we have LIEstrong.

Yes, that is a cute nickname.

Can you please post the list of other riders who haven't lied about their drug use during their career or directly after it, unless they got caught? For bonus points provide the cute nicknames of the ones that did lie.

Take your time. Thanks.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I agree.
Nobody could have predicted what actually happened, but it's BS when people argue that LA couldn't compete in stage races, or that he was an ordinary rider. It shows a lack of understanding of what type of rider is able to finish on the podium of LBL, Paris-Nice, World RR champs etc.

Its refreshing to hear a realistic take on his ability.

Who said he is an "ordinary rider"?

Also - it is not BS to argue that he was not a stage racer - as said just up thread to be a GT stage racer is all about recovery.
LA had the capability to win almost any one day race he entered and he could do reasonably well in short stage races - but GTs nope, that was always evident from within the first couple of seasons.

 

[andy1234]

Who said he is an "ordinary rider"?

Also - it is not BS to argue that he was not a stage racer - as said just up thread to be a GT stage racer is all about recovery.
LA had the capability to win almost any one day race he entered and he could do reasonably well in short stage races - but GTs nope, that was always evident from within the first couple of seasons.

Many posters in the clinic have described LA as nothing special, a Donkey even.

It is BS to state he was not a stage racer. As stated, early performances in Paris Nice and the Tour of Switzerland say otherwise.
It may not be BS to argue he was not a GT podium candidate though.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Many posters in the clinic have described LA as nothing special, a Donkey even.

It is BS to state he was not a stage racer. As stated, early performances in Paris Nice and the Tour of Switzerland say otherwise.
It may not be BS to argue he was not a GT podium candidate though.

Switzerland??
Paris Nice had few demanding Cat 1 type climbs - and even then he finished 9th.
Roche in first few weeks as a pro won PN.

 

[pmcg76]

I agree.
Nobody could have predicted what actually happened, but it's BS when people argue that LA couldn't compete in stage races, or that he was an ordinary rider. It shows a lack of understanding of what type of rider is able to finish on the podium of LBL, Paris-Nice, World RR champs etc.

Its refreshing to hear a realistic take on his ability.

Ok, I need to put my previous statement in context. I think if Lance had changed all his focus from the Classics to the Tour, I could have seen him becoming a Top 10 contender. That is a world away from saying that he could have been a Tour contender. Big, big difference.

To make a fair comparison, guys like Argentin, Fondriest, Bettini, Bartoli, Rebellin all took shots at perfroming in GTs whether it be Tour, Giro or Vuelta. All done ok with most making the Top 10/20. However, most of them realised that focusing on the classics was more beneficial than scraping Top 10s in GTs, hence they focused on the classics instead of GTs. I would put Lance in the same boat. If he put all his focus on the Tour, he could have achieved a Top 10 but would he have been capable of changing focus and sacrificing the classics?

Also I could have envisaged Lance winning a lot of stage races that didnt feature big climbing stages or even limited climbing, races like Paris-Nice, T-A, Holland, Belgium, Dunkirk even Tour de Suisse etc. I mean look at some of the Tour de Suisse winners in the 90s, Roosen, Saligari, Furlan, Richard, Agnolutto, they were hardly GT riders. These races are more all-rounder, hard men type races with maybe one hard mountain stage at most. To me, Paris-Nice has become far more mountainous/selective in recent years. I would put the likes of Catalonia, Romandy, Dauphine in another category altogether as more pure climbers races. These latter races are more indicitive of GT ability. To me personally, Lance was always a much stronger TT rider than climber.

When Lance finished 4th in the Vuelta of 98, I believed in that result because to me, that was his limit in terms of GC racing. The weakest of the GTs with a weak field still reeling from the Tour and Lance having put all his focus on doing well in that race. His TTing was strong but he struggled against the top guys in the mountains but clung on grimly. Again, finishing 4th in a weak Vuelta is miles away from winning the Tour or even contending, especially when you consider Olano and Jiminez RIP were the main contenders. Like Kelly and Jalabert, I would have viewed the Vuelta as Lance's best chance of GT success. I also believe Jalabert was a major responder to EPO, otherwise he would never have won a Vuelta.

In summary, I feel Lance could have done well in most smaller stage races and maybe had a crack at the Vuelta(especially in September) or finishing Top 10 in the Tour but no way did he show an ability to be a Tour winner or even top contender at any stage.

 

[Race Radio]

I agree.
Nobody could have predicted what actually happened, but it's BS when people argue that LA couldn't compete in stage races, or that he was an ordinary rider. It shows a lack of understanding of what type of rider is able to finish on the podium of LBL, Paris-Nice, World RR champs etc.

Its refreshing to hear a realistic take on his ability.

This only happened after he started using EPO

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, that is a cute nickname.

Can you please post the list of other riders who haven't lied about their drug use during their career or directly after it, unless they got caught? For bonus points provide the cute nicknames of the ones that did lie.

Take your time. Thanks.

Andreu
Chiotti
Fignon
Rooks
Kimmage

 

[D-Queued]

Yes, that is a cute nickname.

Can you please post the list of other riders who haven't lied about their drug use during their career or directly after it, unless they got caught? For bonus points provide the cute nicknames of the ones that did lie.

Take your time. Thanks.

Andreu
Chiotti
Fignon
Rooks
Kimmage

Anquetil, who openly laughed in everyone's face about it.

And, for the big prize, Bjarne Riis - Mr. 60%.

Dave.

 

[Merckx index]

Then name me any rider who at 21 had equal or better stage racing palmares as Lance did.

Top 10 Paris-Nice
2nd Tour du Pont behind Raul.
3rd Tour of Sweden behind Phil
3 top20 finishes in the Tour de France, including a Stage Win.

He finished in the top twenty in three stages? Wow! I’ll bet no more than 50 or so riders accomplish that every year.

Can you please post the list of other riders who haven't lied about their drug use during their career or directly after it, unless they got caught, or those who lied but who didn’t try to sue anyone who suggested that maybe they were lying?

Much better question, Chris.

 

[ChrisE]

Andreu
Chiotti
Fignon
Rooks
Kimmage

Cmon RR. I will quote myself again below and highlight the important part.

Can you please post the list of other riders who haven't lied about their drug use during their career or directly after it, unless they got caught? For bonus points provide the cute nicknames of the ones that did lie.

Really, the riders you listed just called a press conference once day during their career and announced they were doped to the gills?

You know, the only point I am making here is once again LA gets the brunt of the vitriol in a sport infested with dopers, who lie about their doping. I do admit it is much easier to mesh "lie" into Livestrong than making it work with other liars such as Ullrich, Basso, or Hamilton, or Beloki, or Pantani, or Vino, or Landis, or zzzzzzzzzz I'm falling asleep listing all of these liars whose name is such we can't make a cute nickname.

 

[ChrisE]

Much better question, Chris.

OK, I'll bite.

Can you please name another cyclist who has been under the scrutiny in the press, and in books, that LA has, and thus who has had the baited field he has had in terms of how many people he could sue? I assume you would just roll over if you were in his shoes?

Also, can you name another cyclist that was awarded a $7.5 million settlement, that included lawyers fees and whatever else above the origianal $5 million, by fighting somebody that claimed he doped?

Again, take your time like Bennotti. Thanks.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Cmon RR. I will quote myself again below and highlight the important part.

Can you please post the list of other riders who haven't lied about their drug use during their career or directly after it, unless they got caught? For bonus points provide the cute nicknames of the ones that did lie.

Really, the riders you listed just called a press conference once day during their career and announced they were doped to the gills?

You know, the only point I am making here is once again LA gets the brunt of the vitriol in a sport infested with dopers, who lie about their doping. I do admit it is much easier to mesh "lie" into Livestrong than making it work with other liars such as Ullrich, Basso, or Hamilton, or Beloki, or Pantani, or Vino, or Landis, or zzzzzzzzzz I'm falling asleep listing all of these liars whose name is such we can't make a cute nickname.

Jesus Manzano.

To the highlighted - you appear to miss that many you have listed have to some degree made statements admitting their use with much less evidence than is being stacked up against LA.

At this stage LA would do the sport (& himself) a big favor if he just admitted.

 

[ChrisE]

Jesus Manzano.

To the highlighted - you appear to miss that many you have listed have to some degree made statements admitting their use with much less evidence than is being stacked up against LA.

At this stage LA would do the sport (& himself) a big favor if he just admitted.

OK, 1 out of 100's, or 1000's? You win.

I don't think LA would be doing himself any favors by admitting anything at this point. Good thing you are not his lawyer.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK, 1 out of 100's, or 1000's? You win.

I don't think LA would be doing himself any favors by admitting anything at this point. Good thing you are not his lawyer.

You wanted some more names- ok,
Pedro Díaz Lobato
Justin Spinelli
Dario Gadeo

Oh, if I was LA's lawyer I would tell him to fight like he had cancer - it would be like winning the lottery.

 

[Polish]

He finished in the top twenty in three stages? Wow! I’ll bet no more than 50 or so riders accomplish that every year (in the TdF ed).
.

But how many riders have done that at the age of 21 or younger?
Crickets. chirp chirp.

Maybe 3 did. Lance and 2 others.
All 3 became awesome Grand Tour Riders btw.
No suprise of course.
Hindsight 20/20 lol.

Lance was hyped as the "next LeMond" back then
Lance was tipped to win the TdF by many pundits back then.
They were all correct.
The knowledgable pundits and the fanboy pundits too.

 

[Polish]

Guess this has turned into another Lance thread.

People, please stop quoting Tour of Sweden as proof of stage racing capacity, Sweden was a pro-am event in which Motorola where pretty much the only Pro team present in 93. Just for reference the Tour of Sweden ran concurrently with Tour of Switzerland, Route du Sud, Fr, Tout of Puglia, It and Bicicleta Vasca, Sp, right before the Tour. After those more important race, guess how much talent was in Sweden.

Du Pont, decent race but low standard, ran concurrently with Vuelta A Espana, 4 Days of Dunkirk, Tour of Romandy, Tour of Trentino. In 93 only top level team other than Motorola were Wordperfect who sent their flatlanders with Alcala. CLAS B team were also there and GAN C team I think. Where was Motorola main GC men, A.Hampsten, A.Mejia. Oh right, over at Romandy with all the other GC riders.

Ok, riders with better stage race credentials than Lance at 21, most of these races were bigger/more quality than Du Pont.

Stephen Roche, Winner Paris-Nice, Winner Tour of Corsica Age 21
Laurent Fignon Winner Ctriterium International Age 21
Geard Ciolek National RR Champion Age 18
Heinrich Trumheller National RR Champion Age 19
Greg LeMond Winner Tour de l'Avenir, Winner Dauphine Libere Age 21, Winner Coors Classic Age 20, 2nd World Champs Age 21yrs 2months, younger than Lance
Beat Zberg 1st Etoile de Bessges, 4th Dauphine Libere, 5th Tour of Switzerland Age 20
Rolf Sorensen 1st Tirreno-Adriatico Age 21
Bobby Julich 5th Tour du Pont Age 19Freddy Maertens 1st 4 days of Dunkirk, 2nd Tour of Flanders, 5th Paris-Roubaix Age 21
Dietrich Thurau 1st National RR, 1st Tour of Picardy, 1st Points Classification Vuelta A Espana Age 21
Antonio Martin 2nd Tour of Murcia, 3rd Tour of Catalonia Age 21
Mikel Zarrabeitia 1st Tour of Rioja, 3rd Tour of Basque Country Age 21

Thats just a few I can find easily, a few went to to become GC riders, a few went on to become big stars and a few went nowhere.

Give me a break.
Maybe Roche and Fignon came close to Lance as 21 year old stage racers.
But they did not race in a Grand Tour like Lance.

Still, no suprise Roche and Fignon became multiple Grand Tour winners.
Like Lance, the writing was on the wall.

I understand those of you that say Lance did not show Grand Tour greatness from the start of his Euro career don't really believe that. Do you? Yikes?

The thing about the great grand tour riders.
It is hard to tell when they were doping and when they were not.
Shooting star, flash in the pan donkeys stick out like sore thumbs.
But not the Greats

Eddy, Lance, Alberto, Fausto, Jacques, Big Mig, etc.
Doping/Not Doping - hard to tell and it really did not matter.
Its true.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

The thing about the great grand tour riders.
It is hard to tell when they were doping and when they were not.
Shooting star, flash in the pan donkeys stick out like sore thumbs.
But not the Greats

Eddy, Lance, Alberto, Fausto, Jacques, Big Mig, etc.
Doping/Not Doping - hard to tell and it really did not matter.
Its true.

I appreciate your attempt at clouding the issue by not naming names chronologically, but it really does come back to 'the juice'.

No pre-EPO/hgh era guy was really outgunning the talent around him. They just happened to be able to max out their own potential via low-grade speed and a little something to help the pain.

Not to say they may have driven some more natural talent out of the game, but just being contrarian to your 'dope is dope' schtick. It's not.

Maybe that's why noone's crying out for Coppi's head.

 

[Polish]

I appreciate your attempt at clouding the issue by not naming names chronologically, but it really does come back to 'the juice'.

Not clouding, just can't remember the names.
I looked it up once. I do remember one was a very early winner of the Tour.
Seem to recall he was the youngest winner of the Tour?
Young French rider. Long dead.
The other one was a more modern rider. Did Big Mig win a stage as a 21 year old? He was another of the youngest Tour starters. Alberto did not race the Tour at 21 - but he did win a stage in the Tour of Poland at that age.

 

[pmcg76]

But how many riders have done that at the age of 21 or younger?
Crickets. chirp chirp.

Maybe 3 did. Lance and 2 others.
All 3 became awesome Grand Tour Riders btw.
No suprise of course.
Hindsight 20/20 lol.

Lance was hyped as the "next LeMond" back then
Lance was tipped to win the TdF by many pundits back then.
They were all correct.
The knowledgable pundits and the fanboy pundits too.

You asked to name riders with better stage racing palmares than Lance at 21 and I did, now your claim is that just riding in the Tour is better proof of stage racing capacity than winning important races.

I guess riding the Tour is not so difficult when you know you are only riding one week of it whilst all the big boys have to do the full three weeks, that means you can give it your all for one week whilst not having to worry about conserving energy for 3 weeks through all the mountains etc. Hey the Tour du Pont was longer than the time Lance spent at the Tour in 93.

You know who else always done that, Cipo, rake up a load of stage wins and then abandon after one week. Or are you trying to tell us Cipo had massive GC potential as well.

The real reason most of the other guys didnt ride at that age was because 21 was considered too young to ride a full Tour and it was a massive insult to put a rider in the Tour in the knowledge they would only stay one week. Motorola put Lance in the Tour at 21 to get the experience of abandoning the Tour so he could do it better the following year at the same age as when the real GT riders started to show their true abilities.

 

[Merckx index]

Can you please name another cyclist who has been under the scrutiny in the press, and in books, that LA has, and thus who has had the baited field he has had in terms of how many people he could sue? I assume you would just roll over if you were in his shoes?

As we say in science, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You're being inconsistent, Chris. On the one hand, you want LA to be treated just like any other doping cyclist who lied about it. On the other hand, when I point out that he isn't just like any other doping cyclist who lied about it, you argue that he's different from other lying dopers. You're surely bright enough to see that the way he is different from other lying cyclists is very relevant to the way people judge his actions in response to lying charges.

Also, can you name another cyclist that was awarded a $7.5 million settlement, that included lawyers fees and whatever else above the origianal $5 million, by fighting somebody that claimed he doped?

Anyone could win a suit like that, when the ground rules at the outset ensured that even if SCA had proven doping he wouldn't lose. The suit certainly didn't establish that he didn't dope. It was thrown out on a technicality originally.

But how many riders have done that at the age of 21 or younger?

Well, you're the one claiming it as evidence of GT potential, so why don't you tell me? I can certainly name a lot of older riders who finished in the top 20 in far more than 3 stages, and they didn't do squat in the GC. Because winning stages in a GT, let alone finishing in the top 20 of them, really has very little to do with finishing high in the GC.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Anyone could win a suit like that, when the ground rules at the outset ensured that even if SCA had proven doping he wouldn't lose. The suit certainly didn't establish that he didn't dope. It was thrown out on a technicality originally.

Really, all he had to prove was that he had not been disqualified from any of the wins. Not much to hide behind actually.

 

[D-Queued]

...
Really, the riders you listed just called a press conference once day during their career and announced they were doped to the gills?

....

Hey, Chris, stop ignoring me.

Anquetil didn't need a press conference. If asked, he just told.

OK, I'll bite.

Can you please name another cyclist who has been under the scrutiny in the press, and in books, that LA has, and thus who has had the baited field he has had in terms of how many people he could sue? I assume you would just roll over if you were in his shoes?

Also, can you name another cyclist that was awarded a $7.5 million settlement, that included lawyers fees and whatever else above the origianal $5 million, by fighting somebody that claimed he doped?

Again, take your time like Bennotti. Thanks.

Thanks to inflated compensation, no previous cyclist came close to Lance's compensation - whether the SCA contract or not.

Thus, what is the point?

Dave.

 

[andy1234]

Switzerland??
Paris Nice had few demanding Cat 1 type climbs - and even then he finished 9th.
Roche in first few weeks as a pro won PN.

Yes Switzerland,
Not too shabby for a 22yo single day rider.

1994 Tour de Suisse
Eindklassement
1. Pascal RICHARD (Sui) en 41h32'28"
2. Wladimir Poulnikov (Ukr) à 1'02"
3. Gianluca Pierobon (Ita) à 1'04"
4. Heinz Imboden (Sui) à 1'26"
5. Rodolfo Massi (Ita) à 2'23"
6. Marco Saligari (Ita) à 4'04"
7. Lance Armstrong (Usa) à 4'18"
8. Flavio Giupponi (Ita) à 4'33"
9. Mauro Gianetti (Sui) à 4'41"
10. Felice Puttini (Sui) à 5'56"

 

[Benotti69]

Yes Switzerland,
Not too shabby for a 22yo single day rider.

1994 Tour de Suisse
Eindklassement
1. Pascal RICHARD (Sui) en 41h32'28"
2. Wladimir Poulnikov (Ukr) à 1'02"
3. Gianluca Pierobon (Ita) à 1'04"
4. Heinz Imboden (Sui) à 1'26"
5. Rodolfo Massi (Ita) à 2'23"
6. Marco Saligari (Ita) à 4'04"
7. Lance Armstrong (Usa) à 4'18"
8. Flavio Giupponi (Ita) à 4'33"
9. Mauro Gianetti (Sui) à 4'41"
10. Felice Puttini (Sui) à 5'56"

now there's a full list of GT winners