How much doping really helps?

[Franklin]

Cancellara 1.86 m (6 ft 1 in)82 kg (180 lb; 12.9 st) is the best TTer in the world currently but he aint gonna win the TdF 5 times. Maybe with a 60% HCT he could, considering his muscle mass, similar to Indurain 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in) 80 kg (176 lbs).

Ah yes. I am 1.71 and weigh 60kg. if i drop 2-3 kg's I'll win Alpe D'Huez. Really, what does your comparison points at at all?

Just answer this question: What is so riling you up about Miguel Indurain been seen as a future winner from the early days of his career?

 

[DenisMenchov]

I am 180cm and 60kg, can i win Tour de France with EPO???

 

[Escarabajo]

I am 180cm and 60kg, can i win Tour de France with EPO???

No.

You need more drugs than that.

 

[andy1234]

I am 180cm and 60kg, can i win Tour de France with EPO???

No Denis, you need to stop falling off first.

 

[SuperHuman]

I am 180cm and 60kg, can i win Tour de France with EPO???

The muscles still wear out so I doubt it.

 

[D-Queued]

I am 180cm and 60kg, can i win Tour de France with EPO???

Having achieved only an 8 out of a possible 10 on the suspicion list, you aren't 'training' hard enough.

Dave.

 

[Havetts]

You need more altitude training

 

[Benotti69]

I am 180cm and 60kg, can i win Tour de France with EPO???

you'd better otherwise after the russian mafia finish with you, you'll be known as NoBaller.

 

[Benotti69]

Ah yes. I am 1.71 and weigh 60kg. if i drop 2-3 kg's I'll win Alpe D'Huez. Really, what does your comparison points at at all?

Just answer this question: What is so riling you up about Miguel Indurain been seen as a future winner from the early days of his career?

Can you timetrial as good as Canc and Indurain? Well off you go, Shleck might need some competition after CAS does its job.

Loads of Riders seen as future GT winners, doesn't meant they can win 5 TdFs in a row and in doing so drop mountain goats on HCs like they are going backwards.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Having achieved only an 8 out of a possible 10 on the suspicion list, you aren't 'training' hard enough.

Dave.

9 i believe

 

[D-Queued]

9 i believe

Much closer, but still a little room for improvement then.

Dave.

 

[Franklin]

Can you timetrial as good as Canc and Indurain?Well off you go, Shleck might need some competition after CAS does its job.

I don't get it... why would I need to learn to TT to win Alpe D'Huez? Curious people wonder....

Let me see.... Charly Mottet was 1.64. He could not TT at all (way to small). He was known for his Climbing.

Indeed, you proof for once and all that this is clear. Hinault, 1.73 was a humble TT specialist as he was a small guy. I'm so bloody amazed that I didn't understand this wisdom before.

Small guys can not TT, Big guys can't climb. Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I mean facts and history, who needs those?

Anything to make a point

Loads of Riders seen as future GT winners, doesn't meant they can win 5 TdFs in a row and in doing so drop mountain goats on HCs like they are going backwards.

Was that the argument? Or are you just a bit miffled that Miguel Indurain was indeed hailed as future GT winner? Because that was the only point I and others made. Why does this matter? Because lumping in Miguel Indurain as someone who just got there through Epo seems quite contrary to history.


But sure, side skipping the question and coming with ridiculous cliche ideas about length and specialism is fun and all

Oh and being an Ace TT specialist and winning time in the mountains.. It's clearly that the years of Merckx, Zoetemelk, Hinault, Fignon, Lemond and Roche didn't happen. because these fime riders overall won time in the mountains over the likes of Millar e.a.

In 1982 Hinault overall gained most time in the mountains. Breu, Winnen, Van de Velde, they took a few minutes one day and lost heaps the next days. I'm sorry, it would be nice if you did know your cycling history a bit better. The great GT winners all had an amazing oppressive lead.

 

[roundabout]

In 1986 Indurain lost over a minute to Grewal on the Izoard and 3+ minutes to Cubino in the Pyrenees when he won the Tour de l'Avenir.

How's that for history.

 

[Franklin]

In 1986 Indurain lost over a minute to Grewal on the Izoard and 3+ minutes to Cubino in the Pyrenees when he won the Tour de l'Avenir.

How's that for history.

I'm not sure what's your point? Indurain lost time in the mountains, which proves it was impossible that he could climb with the best later in his career?

Merckx also had years where there were better climbers. This devalues all he did before and afterwards?

 

[roundabout]

No, it shows the progress he made since 1986.

As for reasons for this progress, it's anybody's guess.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>


The great GT winners all had an amazing oppressive lead.

All the great GT winners came before EPO, after came pharmicists patients/clients.

and no you obviously don't get it.

 

[Franklin]

All the great GT winners came before EPO, after came pharmicists patients/clients.

and no you obviously don't get it.

I'm sorry.. I'm as much anti cheating and cheering the downfall of Armstrong as anyone else (my reasons are Bassons/Simeoni). But I love the (sometimes!) tragic persons as Jan Ulrich and can enjoy exploits like the one of Floyd.

But why are you watching this sport? Obviously you hate every winner.

Watching this sport would make me very unhappy if I was you.

No, it shows the progress he made since 1986.

As for reasons for this progress, it's anybody's guess.

Agreed. And sure, after 1990 Epo is the 800 lb Gorilla in the corner.

I didn't understand your point in the first place

 

[Benotti69]

I'm sorry.. I'm as much anti cheating and cheering the downfall of Armstrong as anyone else (my reasons are Bassons/Simeoni). But I love the (sometimes!) tragic persons as Jan Ulrich and can enjoy exploits like the one of Floyd.

But why are you watching this sport? Obviously you hate every winner.

Watching this sport would make me very unhappy if I was you.

I dont remember using the word hate!

But i call a spade a spade when i see it.

I pity those who dope, as it appears to me they are being used whether by choice or not, by the teams, by the race organisers, by the doping doctors, by the dealers and a select few get to rise above it all and get out at the end with a small fortune for their efforts. The rest are probably lucky to even keep a team bike.

I imagine those who profess to be anti-cheating and anti- doping would also be anti the TdF performances of Indurain, Riis, Ullrich, Pantani, Armstrong, Landis, Sastre and Contador. If you cannot figure out why the above are not deserving of kudos for their performances for you have very little understanding of doping since the 90s.

I enjoy and love the sport but watch it with both eyes open. I watched the Giro pass by this week from the side of the road.

 

[Franklin]

I dont remember using the word hate!

But i call a spade a spade when i see it.

I think the riders, even those who admitted using, would certainly find those terms you used spiteful. I call them my "heroes".

But I understand what you are saying.. even though I find it way to harsh.

I pity those who dope, as it appears to me they are being used whether by choice or not, by the teams, by the race organisers, by the doping doctors, by the dealers and a select few get to rise above it all and get out at the end with a small fortune for their efforts. The rest are probably lucky to even keep a team bike.

I'm in a quandary about this. The Bassons and the Mottets show there is a choice.

I imagine those who profess to be anti-cheating and anti- doping would also be anti the TdF performances of Indurain, Riis, Ullrich, Pantani, Armstrong, Landis, Sastre and Contador. If you cannot figure out why the above are not deserving of kudos for their performances for you have very little understanding of doping since the 90s.

Nonsense. I admire the performance of all of them (including the evil one) and I certainly have a very good grasp of history and doping in cycling.

I can separate my admiration from my dislike of cheating and my dislike of doping. In the end the best did win even if it's the best doper. The pain they suffered was the same. However, dope is ruining the sport and it's a dangerous slope. A clean rider can no longer compete in GT's. That is wrong. Also, the UCI seems as corrupted as we all fear it is.

This is what I have against Lance. Not only a cheat/dope, but also a gangster.

I enjoy and love the sport but watch it with both eyes open. I watched the Giro pass by this week from the side of the road.

It's not mutually exclusive.

 

[andy1234]

I dont remember using the word hate!

But i call a spade a spade when i see it.

I pity those who dope, as it appears to me they are being used whether by choice or not, by the teams, by the race organisers, by the doping doctors, by the dealers and a select few get to rise above it all and get out at the end with a small fortune for their efforts. The rest are probably lucky to even keep a team bike.

I imagine those who profess to be anti-cheating and anti- doping would also be anti the TdF performances of Indurain, Riis, Ullrich, Pantani, Armstrong, Landis, Sastre and Contador. If you cannot figure out why the above are not deserving of kudos for their performances for you have very little understanding of doping since the 90s.

I enjoy and love the sport but watch it with both eyes open. I watched the Giro pass by this week from the side of the road.

You dont have to use the word hate, when it comes out in every post you make.
Make a few posts about some of the things or riders you admire in the sport and your argument may be believable.

The clinic is here to talk about doping, but that doesn't mean every rider should be open to ridicule.

 

[Benotti69]

I think the riders, even those who admitted using, would certainly find those terms you used spiteful. I call them my "heroes".

But I understand what you are saying.. even though I find it way to harsh.

I find it spiteful to cheat fans.

I'm in a quandary about this. The Bassons and the Mottets show there is a choice.

Bassons choice was to dope or leave the sport. He chose to leave it. Mottet's career finished in '94, aged 34. If he doped he could've won till he was 39!

Nonsense. I admire the performance of all of them (including the evil one) and I certainly have a very good grasp of history and doping in cycling.

your choice, but i dont see anything admirable about Gunderson.

I can separate my admiration from my dislike of cheating and my dislike of doping. In the end the best did win even if it's the best doper.

The best doper didn't win in '99. The best briber/doper won. If that's what sport is about for you. Fine for you but not for me.
And doping does not level the field. It skewers it away from natural ability and honest hard work, the only level playing field there is.

The pain they suffered was the same. However, dope is ruining the sport and it's a dangerous slope. A clean rider can no longer compete in GT's. That is wrong. Also, the UCI seems as corrupted as we all fear it is.

A clean rider has not been able to compete for along time. How can a clean rider compete with those taking dope to recover better. As for the EPO age well that has destroyed the hope of a clean rider in a GT.

the UCI is a disgusting organisation in its current guise and and was under Hein. Of that there is no question.

This is what I have against Lance. Not only a cheat/dope, but also a gangster.

It's not mutually exclusive.

I doubt Simeoni or Bassons would agree.

 

[Benotti69]

You dont have to use the word hate, when it comes out in every post you make.
Make a few posts about some of the things or riders you admire in the sport and your argument may be believable.

The clinic is here to talk about doping, but that doesn't mean every rider should be open to ridicule.

Maybe it appears that way to apologists of doping and Gunderson.

I have made posts about those whom i admire in the sport. Go do your research if you feel so confident in your opinion of my opinons.

 

[D-Queued]

...that doesn't mean every rider should be open to ridicule.

Why not? Isn't that how Lance felt and acted?

Just follow the leader and ridicule them all.

Dave.

 

[andy1234]

Why not? Isn't that how Lance felt and acted?

Just follow the leader and ridicule them all.

Dave.

So now you want to act like Armstrong?

Personally, I have higher standards.

 

[D-Queued]

So now you want to act like Armstrong?

Personally, I have higher standards.

You do?

When you take a turn of phrase and turn it into this kind of accusation? I think your actions speak for themselves.

Dave.