How much doping really helps?

[andy1234]

now there's a full list of GT winners

Benotti you are hilarious.

Here's another one for you.

Although to be fair this version of PN was the easiest ever, or had a poor field or was stopped by goats when LA was up the road or something like that.

1993 Paris Nice

1. Alex ZULLE (Sui) 1117.5 km en 29h07'45"
2. Laurent Bezault (Fra) à 41"
3. Pascal Lance (Fra) à 1'07"
4. Armand De las Cuevas (Fra) à 1'44"
5. Erik Breukink (Hol) à 1'55"
6. Laurent Brochard (Fra) à 2'25"
7. Andrew Hampsten (Usa) à 2'27"
8. Tony Rominger (Sui) à 2'32"
9. Lance Armstrong (Usa) à 2'45"
10. Stéphane Heulot (Fra) à 2'54"

Man, there are some real ****kickers at Paris Nice 1993. I'm not sure why a first year pro even turned up....
Oh but it was an easy race, no real climbs, everyone but LA was clean, or sick....

Its funny, given the easy terrain (Dr M), that the same riders who perform in the GTs are all in GC contention here... weird.

 

[ultimobici]

OK, I'll bite.

Can you please name another cyclist who has been under the scrutiny in the press, and in books, that LA has, and thus who has had the baited field he has had in terms of how many people he could sue? I assume you would just roll over if you were in his shoes?

Hasn't sued anyone for years. In particular, he did nothing about L'Equipe when they plastered "The Armstrong Lie" on the front page of their paper on 23 August 2005. Didn't sue David Walsh over "From Lance to Landis" which contained, in English, all of the allegations he objected to in French "LA Confidentiel" either. I wonder why?

Also, can you name another cyclist that was awarded a $7.5 million settlement, that included lawyers fees and whatever else above the origianal $5 million, by fighting somebody that claimed he doped?

He won due to the contract being written in such a way that they had to find for him, not because he was exonerated.

 

[Von Mises]

Yes Switzerland,
Not too shabby for a 22yo single day rider.

1994 Tour de Suisse
Eindklassement
1. Pascal RICHARD (Sui) en 41h32'28"
2. Wladimir Poulnikov (Ukr) à 1'02"
3. Gianluca Pierobon (Ita) à 1'04"
4. Heinz Imboden (Sui) à 1'26"
5. Rodolfo Massi (Ita) à 2'23"
6. Marco Saligari (Ita) à 4'04"
7. Lance Armstrong (Usa) à 4'18"
8. Flavio Giupponi (Ita) à 4'33"
9. Mauro Gianetti (Sui) à 4'41"
10. Felice Puttini (Sui) à 5'56"

Come on there are plenty of young riders from same age bracket who have achieved same or better results against much better fields in 1 week stage races.

Kreuziger, for instance, won Switzerland at age 22 ahead of Kloden, Anton, Cunego, Lövkvist.

 

[Benotti69]

Benotti you are hilarious.

Here's another one for you.

Although to be fair this version of PN was the easiest ever, or had a poor field or was stopped by goats when LA was up the road or something like that.

1993 Paris Nice

1. Alex ZULLE (Sui) 1117.5 km en 29h07'45"
2. Laurent Bezault (Fra) à 41"
3. Pascal Lance (Fra) à 1'07"
4. Armand De las Cuevas (Fra) à 1'44"
5. Erik Breukink (Hol) à 1'55"
6. Laurent Brochard (Fra) à 2'25"
7. Andrew Hampsten (Usa) à 2'27"
8. Tony Rominger (Sui) à 2'32"
9. Lance Armstrong (Usa) à 2'45"
10. Stéphane Heulot (Fra) à 2'54"

Man, there are some real ****kickers at Paris Nice 1993. I'm not sure why a first year pro even turned up....
Oh but it was an easy race, no real climbs, everyone but LA was clean, or sick....

Its funny, given the easy terrain (Dr M), that the same riders who perform in the GTs are all in GC contention here... weird.

Tony Rominger another massive EPO user.

Sean Kelly an immense classics rider won PN 7 times. Won a Vuelta once. Was never considered a GT rider. A great all rounder with a mighty sprint and his weakest discipline climbing.

Gunderosn had the chance of a career similar to Kelly in wins. Classics, 3 days events, 4 day events, 1 week races etc... and maybe a GT, ie the Vuelta that befitted his natural abilities, maybe 1. But not a TdF or a Giro.

The evidence of Gundersons doping from TdF samples, Ferarri, Landis etc and his performances prior to '98 and then after scream GT winner via EPO.

 

[andy1234]

Yeah is the youngest Fleche winner. Show me were his stage racing results were because all I see is squat.

http://www.the-sports.org/cycling-armstrong-lance-results-identity-s2-c2-b4-o15-w1928.html

Come on there are plenty of young riders from same age bracket who have achieved same or better results against much better fields in 1 week stage races.

Kreuziger, for instance, won Switzerland at age 22 ahead of Kloden, Anton, Cunego, Lövkvist.

This was in response to Zweistein originally, "Show me were his stage racing results were because all I see is squat"

I'm showing his stage race results.....

 

[andy1234]

Tony Rominger another massive EPO user.

Sean Kelly an immense classics rider won PN 7 times. Won a Vuelta once. Was never considered a GT rider. A great all rounder with a mighty sprint and his weakest discipline climbing.

Gunderosn had the chance of a career similar to Kelly in wins. Classics, 3 days events, 4 day events, 1 week races etc... and maybe a GT, ie the Vuelta that befitted his natural abilities, maybe 1. But not a TdF or a Giro.

The evidence of Gundersons doping from TdF samples, Ferarri, Landis etc and his performances prior to '98 and then after scream GT winner via EPO.

Armstrong was "potentially" riding that Paris Nice without EPO (who knows)
Against, as you admit, uber EPO users.
That only makes it more impressive.

BTW, we have had the Kelly dicussion before. He WAS a GT rider\contender\Winner.

When you win one, and finish in the top 10 in the TDF or Vuelta a further 7 times, it kind of follows...

 

[Benotti69]

Armstrong was "potentially" riding that Paris Nice without EPO (who knows)
Against, as you admit, uber EPO users.
That only makes it more impressive.

BTW, we have had the Kelly dicussion before. He WAS a GT rider\contender\Winner.

When you win one, and finish in the top 10 in the TDF or Vuelta a further 7 times, it kind of follows...

Gunderson was using EPO along with everyone else and it wasn't working as well for him till he hooked up with Ferarri. Guy was and probably still is a PED junkie.

Nope Kelly was never a Big GT contender, he was an outside Favourite at best of which there have been hundreds of.Massive difference. He won the Vuelta riding for a Big Spanish team You need to ask Robert Millar about that

 

[andy1234]

Gunderson was using EPO along with everyone else and it wasn't working as well for him till he hooked up with Ferarri. Guy was and probably still is a PED junkie.

Nope Kelly was never a Big GT contender, he was an outside Favourite at best of which there have been hundreds of.Massive difference. He won the Vuelta riding for a Big Spanish team You need to ask Robert Millar about that

"Gunderson was using EPO along with everyone else"
anecdotal evidence would suggest not.....

Ok so Kelly was not a BIG contender. Just a contender. Im glad we sorted that out.

 

[Franklin]

Claudio Chiappucci is a case in point. Before EPO he was a nobody and only had his moment of glory in 1990's Tour by dint of being in a break that got 10 minutes on the favorites. His subsequent peformances are completely out of step with his prior history.

The 1990 Tour result allowed him to afford the services of Conconi and get the "help" he required to stay at the top table. Without that leg-up he'd have been a footnote in cycling as a domestique, IMO.

Cycling history falsification at it's best. Claudio certainly wasn't a nobody and he certainly didn't loose heaps of time in 1990 due to a lack of strength. He lost because he rode idiotically.... If he hadn't attacked in the pyrenees it might have been awfully close.

Claudio the nobody was 12th and mountain jersey winner in the Giro of 1990.

Sure, Claudio was an Epo user(but when did he start?), but the "he was a nobody in the TdF 1990" is blatantly false.

 

[Benotti69]

"Gunderson was using EPO along with everyone else"
anecdotal evidence would suggest not.....

Ok so Kelly was not a BIG contender. Just a contender. Im glad we sorted that out.

"One of Armstrong’s teammates, Steve Swart, has admitted using EPO while riding for Motorola. He discussed his time with the team in the book “L.A. Confidential: The Secrets of Lance Armstrong"

Hardly anecdotal when Swart, a team mate admitted to it. And Gunderson sued, I suppose?

Lots of Riders have been contenders. Kelly's first 4 TdFs he finished outside the top 25. Hardly made him a favourite.

 

[andy1234]

"One of Armstrong’s teammates, Steve Swart, has admitted using EPO while riding for Motorola. He discussed his time with the team in the book “L.A. Confidential: The Secrets of Lance Armstrong"

Hardly anecdotal when Swart, a team mate admitted to it. And Gunderson sued, I suppose?

Lots of Riders have been contenders. Kelly's first 4 TdFs he finished outside the top 25. Hardly made him a favourite.

Swart admitted to using EPO from 1995.
He wasnt riding for Motorola in 1993.

Don't let the facts stop you though.

For the record, in Indurains first 4 TDFS, he finished outside the top 25 too.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Benotti you are hilarious.

Here's another one for you.

Although to be fair this version of PN was the easiest ever, or had a poor field or was stopped by goats when LA was up the road or something like that.

1993 Paris Nice

1. Alex ZULLE (Sui) 1117.5 km en 29h07'45" (93 TdF 41st)
2. Laurent Bezault (Fra) à 41" (Didn't ride Tour)
3. Pascal Lance (Fra) à 1'07" (93 TdF 68th)
4. Armand De las Cuevas (Fra) à 1'44" (Didn't ride Tour)
5. Erik Breukink (Hol) à 1'55" (93 TdF DNF)
6. Laurent Brochard (Fra) à 2'25" (93 TdF 44th)
7. Andrew Hampsten (Usa) à 2'27" (93 TdF 8th)
8. Tony Rominger (Sui) à 2'32" (93 TdF 2nd)
9. Lance Armstrong (Usa) à 2'45" (93 TdF DNF)
10. Stéphane Heulot (Fra) à 2'54" (Didn't ride Tour)

Man, there are some real ****kickers at Paris Nice 1993. I'm not sure why a first year pro even turned up....
Oh but it was an easy race, no real climbs, everyone but LA was clean, or sick....

Its funny, given the easy terrain (Dr M), that the same riders who perform in the GTs are all in GC contention here... weird.

I'll try and make this easy for you - first I have included the '93 TdF placings of your above top 10 in blue.

Now, GT's are long races - they last over 3 weeks (a week is 7 days) and the 1993 Tour de France had 21** days of racing.

Paris Nice had 7** days of racing - which means it is smaller than a GT race. So, no - it's not funny that people who do well in 21 day races can also do well on a 7 day race (which are smaller) - in fact it is quite logical.


Now this is actually funny and indeed you may find it educational.

** Visual reference.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21.

 

[andy1234]

I'll try and make this easy for you - first I have included the '93 TdF placings of your above top 10 in blue.

Now, GT's are long races - they last over 3 weeks (a week is 7 days) and the 1993 Tour de France had 21** days of racing.

Paris Nice had 7** days of racing - which means it is smaller than a GT race. So, no - it's not funny that people who do well in 21 day races can also do well on a 7 day race (which are smaller) - in fact it is quite logical.


Now this is actually funny and indeed you may find it educational.

** Visual reference.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21.

Ok, I appreciate the lesson.

But as far as giving me the PN top 10 in the 93 TDF? I expect better of you.

Why not give me each of those riders highest GT position?
I would do it, but I havn't got the time. I can guarantee it would show that most of them have genuine GT credentials.

You seem to be tied up with this notion that a 3 week race is completely different from 1 week race.
It isn't.
Thats why so many riders who excel in relatively short races like the dauphine, Paris-Nice, Romandie etc etc go on to achive equal results in the GTs. As long as the terrain goes uphill enough, there is a TT and the stages are long enough, the same riders will win.


Recovery is of course important for competing for 3 weeks, but only if you have the firepower to compete within your threshold each day.

7 days or 21 days, the threshold power\weight riders will win 99% of the time. They are just able to work a bit less than everyone else each day.
As the race gets longer, the divide just gets bigger.

Oh and I noticed you didn't mention the Tour de Suisse result in 94.
Always seems to slip under the radar that one.

On a final note. I do not believe that LA was a GT rider at an early age.
He did, however, have enough tour results for it to be a possibility.

 

[Benotti69]

Swart admitted to using EPO from 1995.
He wasnt riding for Motorola in 1993.

Don't let the facts stop you though.

For the record, in Indurains first 4 TDFS, he finished outside the top 25 too.

Motorola were a doping team. Dont let that fact escape you.

Indurain another rider who EPO'd the TdF and his wins. I bet Kelly could have won the TdF with enough EPO.

 

[warmfuzzies]

Best to assume everyone at the front of the peloton is eating Spanish steak.

 

[Benotti69]

Best to assume everyone at the front of the peloton is eating Spanish steak.

season by Pharmacists.

 

[pmcg76]

Ok, I appreciate the lesson.

But as far as giving me the PN top 10 in the 93 TDF? I expect better of you.

Why not give me each of those riders highest GT position?
I would do it, but I havn't got the time. I can guarantee it would show that the majority of them have genuine GT credentials.

You seem to be tied up with this notion that a 3 week race is completely different from 1 week race.
It isn't.
Thats why so many riders who excel in relatively short races like the dauphine, Paris-Nice, Romandie etc etc go on to achive equal results in the GTs. As long as the terrain goes uphill enough, there is a TT and the stages are long enough, the same riders will win.


Recovery is of course important for competing for 3 weeks, but only if you have the firepower to compete within your threshold each day.

7 days or 21 days, the power\weight riders will win 99% of the time. They are just able to work a bit less than everyone else each day.
As the race gets longer, the divide just gets bigger.

Oh and I noticed you didn't mention the Tour de Suisse result in 94.
Always seems to slip under the readar that one.

On a final note. I do not believe that LA was a GT rider at an early age.
He did, however, have enough tour results for it to be a possibility.

Ok firstly, you either missed my posts a few pages back or chose to ignore them. Anyway, you are continuting to make rapdily diminishing claims.

One week races are clearly not on the same level as a 3 week Tour nor do they automatically indicate evidence of 3 week racing. They can indicate some evidence like Roche actually winning Paris-Nice or Fignon actually winning Criterium international.

Outside of the 3 GTs and a few races like Dauphine, Romandy and possibly Catalonia, few week long races have lots of major mountain stages. They might have one like Paris-Nice which Mont Faron which means both GT riders and all-round strong men can compete for them. There were/are lots of strong guys who can win one week races but do very little in GTs.

Take Tour De Suisse in the 90s, won by Kelly, Roosen, Furlan, Richard, Saligari, Camenzind, Agnolutto, these guys were strong men and were decent climbers on a given day but none of them were genuine Tour contenders, not even regular Top 10 contenders apart from Kelly. Kelly did try to be a Tour contender but admitted himself he just wasnt good enough. He could make the Top 10 which he did on 4 occasions out of maybe 13/14 Tours.

I agree with whoever said Lance could have had a career similar to Kelly which would have been a decent career as Kelly is one of the all-time greats. Anyone who read my earlier post would have been able to infer that rationale.
However as I said before, there is aworld of difference between competing for the Vuelta and competing for the Tour.

There is also simply a huge difference in performing in a week long Tour with maybe one MTF stage and doing 4-5 of them over a series of climbs before actually getting to the MTF. Those are the stages that seperate the contenders from the pretenders.

If you believe that Lances early results indicated a possibility of GT potential, then we would have to maybe list 50/60 guys as having the same possibilities.

Finally, want to add to my list of riders at 21 with better stage racing results than Lance. How did I miss Andy 2nd Giro d'Italia, age 21 and long before Rujano, the Venezuelan Leonardo Sierra, 10th in the Giro and winner of a mountain stage aged 21.

Edit: Thanks G, minor error

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ok, I appreciate the lesson.

But as far as giving me the PN top 10 in the 93 TDF? I expect better of you.

Why not give me each of those riders highest GT position?
I would do it, but I havn't got the time. I can guarantee it would show that the majority of them have genuine GT credentials.

You seem to be tied up with this notion that a 3 week race is completely different from 1 week race.
It isn't.
Thats why so many riders who excel in relatively short races like the dauphine, Paris-Nice, Romandie etc etc go on to achive equal results in the GTs. As long as the terrain goes uphill enough, there is a TT and the stages are long enough, the same riders will win.


Recovery is of course important for competing for 3 weeks, but only if you have the firepower to compete within your threshold each day.

7 days or 21 days, the power\weight riders will win 99% of the time. They are just able to work a bit less than everyone else each day.
As the race gets longer, the divide just gets bigger.

Oh and I noticed you didn't mention the Tour de Suisse result in 94.
Always seems to slip under the readar that one.

On a final note. I do not believe that LA was a GT rider at an early age.
He did, however, have enough tour results for it to be a possibility.

The Blue is the whole point - GT riders prior to 90 showed that ability - it didn't suddenly hit them in their late 20's.

To the Red - so 'firepower' within 'threshold' trumps ability to recover? Right so you lose 20 minutes (heck, even 5) in one day and by keeping the 'firepower' within 'threshold' you will make it back......


Ok - so you include a list from 1993 and want to compare it to their entire careers?? Because Hampstens 7th in 93 showed he would win the Giro 5 years earlier??
Tell you what - I don't have the time to do your arguement for you so I will highlight the riders that won a GT (& the winners of TdF in Yellow)....

1. Alex ZULLE (Sui) 1117.5 km en 29h07'45" (93 TdF 41st)
2. Laurent Bezault (Fra) à 41" (Didn't ride Tour)
3. Pascal Lance (Fra) à 1'07" (93 TdF 68th)
4. Armand De las Cuevas (Fra) à 1'44" (Didn't ride Tour)
5. Erik Breukink (Hol) à 1'55" (93 TdF DNF)
6. Laurent Brochard (Fra) à 2'25" (93 TdF 44th)
7. Andrew Hampsten (Usa) à 2'27" (93 TdF 8th)
8. Tony Rominger (Sui) à 2'32" (93 TdF 2nd)
9. Lance Armstrong (Usa) à 2'45" (93 TdF DNF)
10. Stéphane Heulot (Fra) à 2'54" (Didn't ride Tour)

....which shows, as I said earlier, people who can do well in a GT can do well in a 7 day race.

Switzerland 94 - was won by Pascal Richard, how many GTs did he win?

 

[Polish]

Guess this has turned into another Lance thread.
.

It turned into a Lance Thread on the 2nd post.

Motorola were a doping team. Dont let that fact escape you.

Indurain another rider who EPO'd the TdF and his wins. I bet Kelly could have won the TdF with enough EPO.

Yes, Lance was doping before his medical leave for cancer.

There is evidence that he was actually doing MORE EPO pre cancer than during or after cancer. Ferarri toned it down after. Lance toned it down after the EPO test was introduced.

Lance was chugging more EPO before cancer and his best Grand Tour results came after cancer - when he reduced his EPO consumption.

Well, what changed?
Lots of things, kids....see below

Before cancer, he did not do any of these (except the PEDS).
After cancer he did.
There is a very important lesson to be learned = its not about the PEDs
see below...the list of post cancer winning attributes:

1) Post Cancer Mind-Body Transformation
2) Lazer-Like Focus on the TdF
3) His Team Mates
4) Training Training Training Training
5) Training at Altitude
6) EPO/Blood Doping
7)Tactical Genius for a DS
8) Focus on Diet, Weighing his Food, Targeted Weight Loss
9) Higher Cadence
10) Sleeping in a Tent
11) Race Course Recons
12) Assos Chamois Creme
13) Inspiration & Motivation from the Fan's
14) High Pain Threshold
15) Mental Tenacity
16) Savvy Businessman ie bribes and "politics"
17) Wind tunnel testing
18) Best Wheelsets
19) Aero Dimples on his shorts
20) Support from his families.
21) Completely selfish, self absorbed, dedicated, complete determination to win,24-7
22) Sleeps like a baby without anxiety
23) ETC

 

[pmcg76]

Ok, I appreciate the lesson.

But as far as giving me the PN top 10 in the 93 TDF? I expect better of you.

Why not give me each of those riders highest GT position?
I would do it, but I havn't got the time. I can guarantee it would show that most of them have genuine GT credentials.

You seem to be tied up with this notion that a 3 week race is completely different from 1 week race.
It isn't.
Thats why so many riders who excel in relatively short races like the dauphine, Paris-Nice, Romandie etc etc go on to achive equal results in the GTs. As long as the terrain goes uphill enough, there is a TT and the stages are long enough, the same riders will win.


Recovery is of course important for competing for 3 weeks, but only if you have the firepower to compete within your threshold each day.

7 days or 21 days, the threshold power\weight riders will win 99% of the time. They are just able to work a bit less than everyone else each day.
As the race gets longer, the divide just gets bigger.

Oh and I noticed you didn't mention the Tour de Suisse result in 94.
Always seems to slip under the radar that one.

On a final note. I do not believe that LA was a GT rider at an early age.
He did, however, have enough tour results for it to be a possibility.

Ok, top Tour finishes by 93 Paris-Nice Top 10:

Alez Zulle, 2nd 99
Laurent Bezault, 43rd 89
Pascal Lance, 51st 90
Armand de Las Cuevas, 62nd 94
Erik Breukink, 3rd 90
Laurent Brochard, 18th 96
Andy Hampsten, 4th 86/91
Toni Rominger, 2nd 93
Stephan Heulot, 13th 98(the one where lots of top guys abandoned)

Pretty much backs up what I was saying before, GC riders can do well in a week long stage race but so can a lot of guys who were never GT contenders.

 

[Benotti69]

Polish speak....

Whatever happened to your speil* of "most tested athlete" and "never tested positive"...

Now you know his PED intake and are trying to tell us it was less as a TdF winner.

Keep polishing it.


*A lengthy or extravagant speech or argument.

 

[roundabout]

Speaking of the 1994 TdS.

Armstrong lost about 1.40 to Boardman in a 30k TT and lost 2.30 to the best on the only MTF.

While these results are ok, they are hardly suggest that this guy would win 7 Tours in a row.

 

[andy1234]

The Blue is the whole point - GT riders prior to 90 showed that ability - it didn't suddenly hit them in their late 20's.

To the Red - so 'firepower' within 'threshold' trumps ability to recover? Right so you lose 20 minutes (heck, even 5) in one day and by keeping the 'firepower' within 'threshold' you will make it back......


Ok - so you include a list from 1993 and want to compare it to their entire careers?? Because Hampstens 7th in 93 showed he would win the Giro 5 years earlier??
Tell you what - I don't have the time to do your arguement for you so I will highlight the riders that won a GT (& the winners of TdF in Yellow)....

1. Alex ZULLE (Sui) 1117.5 km en 29h07'45" (93 TdF 41st)
2. Laurent Bezault (Fra) à 41" (Didn't ride Tour)
3. Pascal Lance (Fra) à 1'07" (93 TdF 68th)
4. Armand De las Cuevas (Fra) à 1'44" (Didn't ride Tour)
5. Erik Breukink (Hol) à 1'55" (93 TdF DNF)
6. Laurent Brochard (Fra) à 2'25" (93 TdF 44th)
7. Andrew Hampsten (Usa) à 2'27" (93 TdF 8th)
8. Tony Rominger (Sui) à 2'32" (93 TdF 2nd)
9. Lance Armstrong (Usa) à 2'45" (93 TdF DNF)
10. Stéphane Heulot (Fra) à 2'54" (Didn't ride Tour)

....which shows, as I said earlier, people who can do well in a GT can do well in a 7 day race.

Switzerland 94 - was won by Pascal Richard, how many GTs did he win?

Lets look at the power argument the other way.
If you dont have it, you will be losing minutes every day.
You might be sleeping soundly and waking fresh as a daisy, but you just can't compete. If you don't understand the term threshold power, look it up.


"Because Hampstens 7th in 93 showed he would win the Giro 5 years earlier??"
No but it did show POTENTIAL, that is what this whole discussion is about.


!....which shows, as I said earlier, people who can do well in a GT can do well in a 7 day race"
Or it shows that the attributes necessary to compete in events like Paris Nice are the same as those necessary to compete in GTs.
See? we can go around all day like this.

Pascal Richard didn't go on to win any GTs, but he was reaching the peak of his career rather than just starting it.

As much as you try and turn the discussion, I am not arguing that LA is a nailed on GT winner because he competed well in short stage races.
His rides just show POTENTIAL.

 

[Granville57]

22) Sleeps like a baby without anxiety

Once again though, he's beaten to the punch by FLandis.

"Floyd is very, very good at sleeping." Ferrari told me admiringly. "Lance is not bad, yes, but Floyd, he sleeps two hours each afternoon, sometimes three!"

Lance Armstrong's War
Page 112

 

[andy1234]

Ok firstly, you either missed my posts a few pages back or chose to ignore them. Anyway, you are continuting to make rapdily diminishing claims.

One week races are clearly not on the same level as a 3 week Tour nor do they automatically indicate evidence of 3 week racing. They can indicate some evidence like Roche actually winning Paris-Nice or Fignon actually winning Criterium international.

Outside of the 3 GTs and a few races like Dauphine, Romandy and possibly Catalonia, few week long races have lots of major mountain stages. They might have one like Paris-Nice which Mont Faron which means both GT riders and all-round strong men can compete for them. There were/are lots of strong guys who can win one week races but do very little in GTs.

Take Tour De Suisse in the 90s, won by Kelly, Roosen, Furlan, Richard, Saligari, Camenzind, Agnolutto, these guys were strong men and were decent climbers on a given day but none of them were genuine Tour contenders, not even regular Top 10 contenders apart from Kelly. Kelly did try to be a Tour contender but admitted himself he just wasnt good enough. He could make the Top 10 which he did on 4 occasions out of maybe 13/14 Tours.

I agree with whoever said Lance could have had a career similar to Kelly which would have been a decent career as Kelly is one of the all-time greats. Anyone who read my earlier post would have been able to infer that rationale.
However as I said before, there is aworld of difference between competing for the Vuelta and competing for the Tour.

There is also simply a huge difference in performing in a week long Tour with maybe one MTF stage and doing 4-5 of them over a series of climbs before actually getting to the MTF. Those are the stages that seperate the contenders from the pretenders.

If you believe that Lances early results indicated a possibility of GT potential, then we would have to maybe list 50/60 guys as having the same possibilities.
Finally, want to add to my list of riders at 21 with better stage racing results than Lance. How did I miss Andy 2nd Giro d'Italia, age 21 and long before Rujano, the Venezuelan Leonardo Sierra, 10th in the Giro and winner of a mountain stage aged 21.

Edit: Thanks G, minor error

I am not sugesting anything "automatically" indicates 3 week racing success

As far as LA's early results meaning we would have to list 50\60 guys as having the same potential...
I agree he would be one of several riders with potential, but nothing like those numbers.

There may be a handful of first and second year pros with the same sort of results, but a World RR champs, alongside the stage race results, set him apart.